Diamond DA40-TDI Crash
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Diamond DA40-TDI Crash
I was going to get a checkout on this aircraft, after reading this on aero news and viewing threads on the network with regard to all-composite aircraft and the fact that DA40 nose wheels have sheared off in the past I think I might revise my plans.
Quote
"A Diamond DA40-tdi has been lost at sea in a rare fatal accident occurring to this genre of aircraft, on Monday (16th Oct)
According to sources in the Diamond community, the aircraft had stopped at Berlin-Schoenefeld airport and departed at 1927 local time for the next leg... which involved an open water night crossing. The flight was seen on radar as having executed a descent, at a reportedly "normal" VS from 6000 to 3000 feet when the descent steepened shortly thereafter, followed by a rapid, turning, descent until the aircraft went off radar surveillance at approximately 2100 local time. The aircraft was last noted about 20nm offshore, over the Baltic, near Trelleborg, Sweden.
A search was mounted, debris and fuel/oil have been sighted, and all aboard are presumed lost. There were no reports of a distress call from the aircraft or any apparent foreknowledge on anyone's part that the flight was in trouble"
Quote
"A Diamond DA40-tdi has been lost at sea in a rare fatal accident occurring to this genre of aircraft, on Monday (16th Oct)
According to sources in the Diamond community, the aircraft had stopped at Berlin-Schoenefeld airport and departed at 1927 local time for the next leg... which involved an open water night crossing. The flight was seen on radar as having executed a descent, at a reportedly "normal" VS from 6000 to 3000 feet when the descent steepened shortly thereafter, followed by a rapid, turning, descent until the aircraft went off radar surveillance at approximately 2100 local time. The aircraft was last noted about 20nm offshore, over the Baltic, near Trelleborg, Sweden.
A search was mounted, debris and fuel/oil have been sighted, and all aboard are presumed lost. There were no reports of a distress call from the aircraft or any apparent foreknowledge on anyone's part that the flight was in trouble"
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This is one of the most pointless opening comments that I have seen in a very long time.
What nose wheels shearing off have to do with this accident totally escapes me.
What any past comments about composite aircraft have to do with this accident also escapes me.
The accident as you describe it has a large number of possible explanations without it being possible to determine from the information given whether any one is more likely than another and without any suggestion that the accident had anything to do with the aircraft being a Diamond.
I cant see a single reason from what you have said why you would want to postpone a check ride.
Sorry, just pointless.
If you have some genuine concerns about an aspect of composite aircraft or of nose wheels shearing off on Diamonds then ask about a specific issue - you might get some sensible replies.
What nose wheels shearing off have to do with this accident totally escapes me.
What any past comments about composite aircraft have to do with this accident also escapes me.
The accident as you describe it has a large number of possible explanations without it being possible to determine from the information given whether any one is more likely than another and without any suggestion that the accident had anything to do with the aircraft being a Diamond.
I cant see a single reason from what you have said why you would want to postpone a check ride.
Sorry, just pointless.
If you have some genuine concerns about an aspect of composite aircraft or of nose wheels shearing off on Diamonds then ask about a specific issue - you might get some sensible replies.
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While I agree with you that the crash may have been caused by many different factors at this time I'm still going of postpone until the full facts are known. As for nose wheels shearing off during taxiing due to excess wear on the retaining pin, and the same fault be found on other examples of the DA40 it hardily adds to to my faith in the type. Its still a young airframe in comparsion to other types and one which for now I'm prepared to avoid. Instead I'll get checked out on a Robin DR400 ecoflyer same great engines, combined with a now well proved airframe.
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"While I agree with you that the crash may have been caused by many different factors"
So why relate nose wheels and composite airframes
"it hardily adds to to my faith in the type"
Have you looked at the ADs on Robins?
"Its still a young airframe in comparsion to other types and one which for now I'm prepared to avoid."
Whether or not there is any evidence to suggest a new certified aircraft is inherently more risky to fly than an "old" certified aircraft I dont know - an interesting question. Would I rather fly a new aircraft which has already been in production for several years with 10s of thousand hours flight time or an old aircraft where the fleet may start suffering problems associated with everything simply being old then I guess I would go with the new aircraft.
Whether you have a particular axe to grind against Diamond for other reasons - well hopefully not, but your first post might make some think otherwise.
Will you get much sympathy on here for the sort of reporting that the Sun would be proud of - probably not.
So why relate nose wheels and composite airframes
"it hardily adds to to my faith in the type"
Have you looked at the ADs on Robins?
"Its still a young airframe in comparsion to other types and one which for now I'm prepared to avoid."
Whether or not there is any evidence to suggest a new certified aircraft is inherently more risky to fly than an "old" certified aircraft I dont know - an interesting question. Would I rather fly a new aircraft which has already been in production for several years with 10s of thousand hours flight time or an old aircraft where the fleet may start suffering problems associated with everything simply being old then I guess I would go with the new aircraft.
Whether you have a particular axe to grind against Diamond for other reasons - well hopefully not, but your first post might make some think otherwise.
Will you get much sympathy on here for the sort of reporting that the Sun would be proud of - probably not.
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http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...LB%2006-06.pdf
No I don't have a dislike of diamond aircraft I just like to have read the details of any incidents that has happened to a aircraft type I'm about to fly. Might save my neck one day if the same happens when I'm P1
Reports are that the aircraft lost over 1000m with in a few seconds and that the others on board were all members of a flying club.
Thats it I'm making no more comments until the full facts are known. Would be wrong at this time speculate.
No I don't have a dislike of diamond aircraft I just like to have read the details of any incidents that has happened to a aircraft type I'm about to fly. Might save my neck one day if the same happens when I'm P1
Reports are that the aircraft lost over 1000m with in a few seconds and that the others on board were all members of a flying club.
Thats it I'm making no more comments until the full facts are known. Would be wrong at this time speculate.
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But isn't any problem with the nose wheel completely unrelated to any possible causes of the ditching which prompted your initial post?
Or are you hinting at some structural problem with the aircraft and its composite construction - in case why not say so?
Or are you hinting at some structural problem with the aircraft and its composite construction - in case why not say so?
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Originally Posted by robinpiper
Reports are that the aircraft lost over 1000m with in a few seconds and that the others on board were all members of a flying club.
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I would think it is hardly likely that the two are connected, just troubled me when I read the report a few months ago. Sorry if I gave the impression the two were somehow connected in my first post.
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According to data of the Swedish press agency TT the airplane had lost 1,000 meters at height within fewer seconds. The sea is about 40 meters deep in the assumed crash place.
APA 10:33 17.10.2006
As Fuji Abound pointed out earlier Swedish press agency may be related to the Sun
Full transcript google translation:
Stockholm (APA) - a factory-new small aircraft of the type 40 of the down-Austrian manufacturer dia. moon fell THERE on Monday evening south the Swedish coast with Trelleborg into the Baltic Sea. For the three passengers there are no chances of survival according to sea-rescue. With the victims it concerns members of a private flier club in Borss in the Swedish region Västergötland.
According to data of the flier club the three men, the 42 had fetched - year old pilot and two older club members, the single-engine airplane on Monday directly with the manufacturer, the company Diamond aircraft Industries in Viennese new city and were started around approximately 15,00 o'clock of Viennese new city out to the transferral flight. The machine landed afterwards in Berlin between. Because of bad weather conditions the pilot wanted to touch down on Monday evening prematurely on the airport Sturup with Malmö. Briefly before the landing the machine of the radar display screens of Swedish flight control disappeared. The sea-rescue compensated wreck parts, fallow the search for possible survivors in the course of the night however without result. The cause of the misfortune is for the time being unclear. According to data of the Swedish press agency TT the airplane had lost 1,000 meters at height within fewer seconds. The sea is about 40 meters deep in the assumed crash place.
APA 10:33 17.10.2006
APA 10:33 17.10.2006
As Fuji Abound pointed out earlier Swedish press agency may be related to the Sun
Full transcript google translation:
Stockholm (APA) - a factory-new small aircraft of the type 40 of the down-Austrian manufacturer dia. moon fell THERE on Monday evening south the Swedish coast with Trelleborg into the Baltic Sea. For the three passengers there are no chances of survival according to sea-rescue. With the victims it concerns members of a private flier club in Borss in the Swedish region Västergötland.
According to data of the flier club the three men, the 42 had fetched - year old pilot and two older club members, the single-engine airplane on Monday directly with the manufacturer, the company Diamond aircraft Industries in Viennese new city and were started around approximately 15,00 o'clock of Viennese new city out to the transferral flight. The machine landed afterwards in Berlin between. Because of bad weather conditions the pilot wanted to touch down on Monday evening prematurely on the airport Sturup with Malmö. Briefly before the landing the machine of the radar display screens of Swedish flight control disappeared. The sea-rescue compensated wreck parts, fallow the search for possible survivors in the course of the night however without result. The cause of the misfortune is for the time being unclear. According to data of the Swedish press agency TT the airplane had lost 1,000 meters at height within fewer seconds. The sea is about 40 meters deep in the assumed crash place.
APA 10:33 17.10.2006
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Hmm, is there a hidden agenda here?
To make the sudden leap that the DA 40 in this case had a structural failure and therefore they are all unsafe, is a bit daft to me.
Nobody knows what happened to those unforunate people yet. It could have been a collision, a damaged airframe, or any one of a hundred reasons.
The Diamond a/c do have some problems, but show me a type that doesn't. The only reason most of the "traditional" machines seem to have less now is that they have had so much work done to them over the years. The Robins have always been a mess maintenance wise.
I have flown all Robin types and while they have all been lovely to fly, they all have terrible build quality and are about as reliable as a Trabant.
There are plenty of examples of Robins having fallen out of the sky with structural failure, ie the one where the pilot hit a hay bale whilst taxiing. He took off as there was no visible damage and the wing folded..... Would that stop you flying a Robin?
To make the sudden leap that the DA 40 in this case had a structural failure and therefore they are all unsafe, is a bit daft to me.
Nobody knows what happened to those unforunate people yet. It could have been a collision, a damaged airframe, or any one of a hundred reasons.
The Diamond a/c do have some problems, but show me a type that doesn't. The only reason most of the "traditional" machines seem to have less now is that they have had so much work done to them over the years. The Robins have always been a mess maintenance wise.
I have flown all Robin types and while they have all been lovely to fly, they all have terrible build quality and are about as reliable as a Trabant.
There are plenty of examples of Robins having fallen out of the sky with structural failure, ie the one where the pilot hit a hay bale whilst taxiing. He took off as there was no visible damage and the wing folded..... Would that stop you flying a Robin?
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According to data of the Swedish press agency TT the airplane had lost 1,000 meters at height within fewer seconds
Assuming "fewer" is say 3, that's about mach1. Somehow I doubt that a DA40 can do mach1, whether diving vertically while intact, or plummeting with both wings ripped off, or anything in between. The terminal velocity (vertical) should be under mach 0.2-0.3, and much less if simply out of control.
Clearly it's a duff report.
Moreover, it's going to be hard to establish structural failure with a water impact, because bits can float for a bit and settle on the seabed further away. Whereas with a land crash, if you find a wing a couple of miles behind...
The only notable problem with the DA40 is the diesel engine issues. They have not had any airframe issues worth worrying about.
From the time, this appears to have been a night flight. More likely a Kennedy-style loss of control, I would suggest.
Assuming "fewer" is say 3, that's about mach1. Somehow I doubt that a DA40 can do mach1, whether diving vertically while intact, or plummeting with both wings ripped off, or anything in between. The terminal velocity (vertical) should be under mach 0.2-0.3, and much less if simply out of control.
Clearly it's a duff report.
Moreover, it's going to be hard to establish structural failure with a water impact, because bits can float for a bit and settle on the seabed further away. Whereas with a land crash, if you find a wing a couple of miles behind...
The only notable problem with the DA40 is the diesel engine issues. They have not had any airframe issues worth worrying about.
From the time, this appears to have been a night flight. More likely a Kennedy-style loss of control, I would suggest.
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A few years ago whilst I was in living in Lanzarote a PA28-180 with four on board crashed whilst approaching the airport.
The aircraft started a stable descent and then lost height rapidly before impacting the sea. The aircraft and occupants were never recoved despite the crash being only a mile or so out to sea.
There was never any question in anyone's mind that because of this the PA28 is a dangerous aircraft and one to be avoided. I imagine in fact that there have been more accidents and incidents involving C150/C172 and PA28 types than any other light aircraft on the planet.
I agree totally with Fuji Abound that the comments made by robinpiper are stupid and alarmist and in my opinion robinpiper should stay on the ground and give up flying altogether until such time as he can measure proportionate responses to risk.
The aircraft started a stable descent and then lost height rapidly before impacting the sea. The aircraft and occupants were never recoved despite the crash being only a mile or so out to sea.
There was never any question in anyone's mind that because of this the PA28 is a dangerous aircraft and one to be avoided. I imagine in fact that there have been more accidents and incidents involving C150/C172 and PA28 types than any other light aircraft on the planet.
I agree totally with Fuji Abound that the comments made by robinpiper are stupid and alarmist and in my opinion robinpiper should stay on the ground and give up flying altogether until such time as he can measure proportionate responses to risk.
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1.Diversion to Berlin,
2.Pilot wanted to land early on Monday evening prematurely at Sturup
Could be a case of get home itus
Like tonyhalsall says
Could be Spatial Dissorentation but lets not speculate on this let the authorities do their job.
If all that concerns you robinpiper is a nose leg collapsing then better stay away from aviation and buy Flight sim 98. Look on the AAIB web site Robin, Cessna, Piper and Cirrus all have had Nose legs collapse.
2.Pilot wanted to land early on Monday evening prematurely at Sturup
Could be a case of get home itus
Like tonyhalsall says
this appears to have been a night flight. More likely a Kennedy-style loss of control
If all that concerns you robinpiper is a nose leg collapsing then better stay away from aviation and buy Flight sim 98. Look on the AAIB web site Robin, Cessna, Piper and Cirrus all have had Nose legs collapse.
Last edited by 100LL; 20th Oct 2006 at 16:43.
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This is one of the worst threads for a long time.
Absolutely nothing wrong with composite airframes, they have been in regular use since the 60’s with probably less problems than metal aircraft.
Robin DR400 reliability is very very good. I owned one for many years and it ran like a Swiss watch, much better than the spam can I replaced it with.
At least it was not entitled the Coffin maker.
Rod1
Absolutely nothing wrong with composite airframes, they have been in regular use since the 60’s with probably less problems than metal aircraft.
Robin DR400 reliability is very very good. I owned one for many years and it ran like a Swiss watch, much better than the spam can I replaced it with.
At least it was not entitled the Coffin maker.
Rod1
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Nothing much to add, to a nothing-really thread. I just don't think enough people have criticized the opening sentiment that a tragic loss, so far un-explained, could or should influence anybody other than a plonker.
Last edited by SteveR; 20th Oct 2006 at 19:38. Reason: speling