ATZ transit RT question
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ATZ transit RT question
Hi
Apologies if this sounds like a silly question but it has been bugging me,
When planning to fly through an ATZ open FIR what do you say to the fiso/radio to obtain the relevant information ? Is there a textbook example call because I have gone through CAP 413 and cant see it, all I can see is the standard obtain the relevant airfield information to conduct the flight safely it doesnt seem to go any further than that.
my question comes about from some discussion amongst friends as to how much waffletime is wasted on RT calls and this topic came up because I said I always do a TRPACER but I have been told that is overkill for an ATZ transit in open FIR ,but that is how I was taught, maybe I am wrong dunno anybody care to ellaborate?
thanks bellend
Apologies if this sounds like a silly question but it has been bugging me,
When planning to fly through an ATZ open FIR what do you say to the fiso/radio to obtain the relevant information ? Is there a textbook example call because I have gone through CAP 413 and cant see it, all I can see is the standard obtain the relevant airfield information to conduct the flight safely it doesnt seem to go any further than that.
my question comes about from some discussion amongst friends as to how much waffletime is wasted on RT calls and this topic came up because I said I always do a TRPACER but I have been told that is overkill for an ATZ transit in open FIR ,but that is how I was taught, maybe I am wrong dunno anybody care to ellaborate?
thanks bellend
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I'm new to all this having only recently got my RT license, but I would suggest TRPACER, in response to a 'pass your message' is correct.
I assume your asking for a FIS from them and then they need to know most of it to give you a service, the 'ETA your overhead' is almost an aside?
Cheers
Kev
I assume your asking for a FIS from them and then they need to know most of it to give you a service, the 'ETA your overhead' is almost an aside?
Cheers
Kev
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No idea if it is strictly correct or not - but when calling Scottish Info I would usually pass type, dep a/d, arr a/d, location, routing and altitude. I wouldn't give estimate to next point unless they ask.
I think the main thing is that a FIS is an informal/friendly service - they fully expect all levels of experience calling them. I sat with them one afternoon a few weeks ago and realised just how informal and helpful they are - they really provide a top service and do a fab job!
I think the main thing is that a FIS is an informal/friendly service - they fully expect all levels of experience calling them. I sat with them one afternoon a few weeks ago and realised just how informal and helpful they are - they really provide a top service and do a fab job!
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Should go something along these lines-
You: ATC, G-ABCD Flight Information Service.
ATC: G-ABCD, pass your message.
You: Callsign,
Aircraft Type,
Routing To,From, Via,
Position,
Altitude,
Request (FIS, Transit your overhead, etc).
I'm unfamiliar with TRPACER as I was taught CARPARK but sure its similar. I agree that 'waffletime' is a problem that can easily be reduced by sticking to a set format.
It definately isn't overkill! By sticking to this format reduces the risk of missing out important info, appears more professional and should lead to a safer flight.
Cheers,
CapCon
You: ATC, G-ABCD Flight Information Service.
ATC: G-ABCD, pass your message.
You: Callsign,
Aircraft Type,
Routing To,From, Via,
Position,
Altitude,
Request (FIS, Transit your overhead, etc).
I'm unfamiliar with TRPACER as I was taught CARPARK but sure its similar. I agree that 'waffletime' is a problem that can easily be reduced by sticking to a set format.
It definately isn't overkill! By sticking to this format reduces the risk of missing out important info, appears more professional and should lead to a safer flight.
Cheers,
CapCon
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Legally for a FIS/A/g service all you need to do is be in radio contact. No clearance is required (or possible - they don't have the authority).
In practice I wouldn't give the full call, just
'G-ABCD is a XXXX 5 miles southwest at 1700 on 1014, intend to transit your overhead at 1700ft, request FIS [if it's a FISO] and QNH'
You need the QNH so you are on the same reference as anyone else in the ATZ. You might add 'expecting overhead at 21' but to be honest if you've given your range and aircraft type most people know roughly when to expect you!
Tim
In practice I wouldn't give the full call, just
'G-ABCD is a XXXX 5 miles southwest at 1700 on 1014, intend to transit your overhead at 1700ft, request FIS [if it's a FISO] and QNH'
You need the QNH so you are on the same reference as anyone else in the ATZ. You might add 'expecting overhead at 21' but to be honest if you've given your range and aircraft type most people know roughly when to expect you!
Tim
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How about:
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Request ATZ Transit"
ATS: "Callsign, pass your message"
Pilot: "Callsign, Type, (From, To), Position, Altitude, ETA overhead"
The ATS operator would then be able to make an immediate impact assessment and provide traffic information accordingly. The 'Type of Service' agreement could be established subsequently if necessary assuming that there is a choice. In most cases in UK Class G airspace FIS would be the only option. The "ATS, Callsign, Request ATZ Transit" is the real attention-getter which the ATSU operator needs most of all in order to make the immediate 'impact assessment' prior to sevice provision and 'Service Level Agreement'.
A typical response could be:
ATS: "Callsign, report overhead, traffic is........, Flight Information Service"
.....nice and simple.
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Request ATZ Transit"
ATS: "Callsign, pass your message"
Pilot: "Callsign, Type, (From, To), Position, Altitude, ETA overhead"
The ATS operator would then be able to make an immediate impact assessment and provide traffic information accordingly. The 'Type of Service' agreement could be established subsequently if necessary assuming that there is a choice. In most cases in UK Class G airspace FIS would be the only option. The "ATS, Callsign, Request ATZ Transit" is the real attention-getter which the ATSU operator needs most of all in order to make the immediate 'impact assessment' prior to sevice provision and 'Service Level Agreement'.
A typical response could be:
ATS: "Callsign, report overhead, traffic is........, Flight Information Service"
.....nice and simple.
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Hi
I think the gist of this thread is that you should pass most info, so stick to TRPACER then you wont miss anything out and you have the best match to CAP413 and a 'standard'.
My 2p.
Cheers
Kev
I think the gist of this thread is that you should pass most info, so stick to TRPACER then you wont miss anything out and you have the best match to CAP413 and a 'standard'.
My 2p.
Cheers
Kev
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Neumonic(spl?) for remembering the reply to "pass your message"
T ype
R oute (departure, destination and any relevant waypoints in between)
P osition
A ltitude
C onditions (IFR/VFR)
E stimate (time)
R equest (FIS/RIS/RAS/ etc)
No doubt there are variations on this.
T ype
R oute (departure, destination and any relevant waypoints in between)
P osition
A ltitude
C onditions (IFR/VFR)
E stimate (time)
R equest (FIS/RIS/RAS/ etc)
No doubt there are variations on this.
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Droopy, exactley as I was taught it, but just to add a bit more detail:
T ype
R oute (departure, destination and any relevant waypoints in between)
P osition
A ltitude (or Height, or Flight Level ands QNH if relevant)
C onditions (IFR/VFR)
E stimate (time and position at that time
R equest (FIS/RIS/RAS/MATZ/Zone Transit etc)
As an aside, on a PTLPT (Position, TIme, Level, Next Position and Time) you give time at current position in case your watch is different to the controlers etc, but I was not taught to give time at current position in TRPACER, even though you are giving time at next - is this just an anomially that has stuck or should Position in TRPACER include time?
Cheers
Kev
T ype
R oute (departure, destination and any relevant waypoints in between)
P osition
A ltitude (or Height, or Flight Level ands QNH if relevant)
C onditions (IFR/VFR)
E stimate (time and position at that time
R equest (FIS/RIS/RAS/MATZ/Zone Transit etc)
As an aside, on a PTLPT (Position, TIme, Level, Next Position and Time) you give time at current position in case your watch is different to the controlers etc, but I was not taught to give time at current position in TRPACER, even though you are giving time at next - is this just an anomially that has stuck or should Position in TRPACER include time?
Cheers
Kev
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I think that it is assumed that everyone synchronises their watches/clocks with ATS at the start of each flight. It is not for ATS to worry about how accurate your time piece is or indeed to account for it.
The position one passes in a TRPACER call is the current one, ie at the instant of the call therefore no time required.
During PTLPT (ie IFR/Airways) calls, I'm guessing that the time is required over the previous waypoint since the speed and level of radio traffic might mean a considerable distance is covered between passing the point and getting the message to ATC. I guess it will also give ATC an indication of how fast you are travelling.
The position one passes in a TRPACER call is the current one, ie at the instant of the call therefore no time required.
During PTLPT (ie IFR/Airways) calls, I'm guessing that the time is required over the previous waypoint since the speed and level of radio traffic might mean a considerable distance is covered between passing the point and getting the message to ATC. I guess it will also give ATC an indication of how fast you are travelling.
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How about:
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Request ATZ Transit"
ATS: "Callsign, pass your message"
Pilot: "Callsign, Type, (From, To), Position, Altitude, ETA overhead"
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Request ATZ Transit"
ATS: "Callsign, pass your message"
Pilot: "Callsign, Type, (From, To), Position, Altitude, ETA overhead"
I'd do it as per tmmorris's example.
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Oh blimey. Who said anything about requesting clearance?
OK then, how about:
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, For ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Intend ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Request traffic information in accordance with Rule 39 to enable me to intelligently execute an ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Oh s*ddit, avoiding the ATZ "
Anyway, an AGCS operator may not provide Flight Information Service.
OK then, how about:
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, For ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Intend ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Request traffic information in accordance with Rule 39 to enable me to intelligently execute an ATZ Transit"
or
Pilot: "ATS, Callsign, Oh s*ddit, avoiding the ATZ "
Anyway, an AGCS operator may not provide Flight Information Service.
I tend to make the initial call "ATS, Callsign, For Traffic Information" and make my subsequent message a statement of intentions.
Having decided to make the call, it's academic whether I'll pass through the ATZ or pass over/close: what I want is to understand what else is around and give enough information for others to know where I am going to be.
Having decided to make the call, it's academic whether I'll pass through the ATZ or pass over/close: what I want is to understand what else is around and give enough information for others to know where I am going to be.
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