TCAS question
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Some dusty outpost in the ME
Age: 45
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540 – I wouldn’t have said that radar coverage is that spartan! Perhaps in the Highlands, North West of Scotland and parts of Wales, then yes. However, this is not where the majority of the traffic we are discussing, with regard to Mode S, operates.
Shortstipper - I’m not too sure there are that many types, even PFA or on Permits, that would be that financially hit to the extent that a basic Garmin GTX320A would render them grounded!! It’s all in context. Do you fly in controlled airspace frequently, mixing with the big boys, or in the open FIR at higher altitudes? If not, then why bother with such equipment?
Airliners are on very shaky ground when operating in the open FIR on a RIS, which is a very good reason to have a transponder. Recall incident with Flybe Dash 8 and a couple of Fast Blacks over the Irish sea?? I wonder how many times you have flown fairly close to the base of overcast cloud and never thought that something may be descending through it?? A transponder in this case would make you more visible to ATC (if within radar range which is very likely) and the a/c if TCAS was installed. In fact, it could save your bacon!!
Robin – You seem against the idea of having such equipment fitted to you’re a/c. Can I ask why?
The way that I look at transponders is in the realm of flight safety. It’s a relatively inexpensive bit of electronic magic, that when the proverbial hit’s the fan and you are getting even a FIS from a chap/chapess with radar, SAR will have an infinitely better chance of getting to you. Of that there is no doubt.
Shortstipper - I’m not too sure there are that many types, even PFA or on Permits, that would be that financially hit to the extent that a basic Garmin GTX320A would render them grounded!! It’s all in context. Do you fly in controlled airspace frequently, mixing with the big boys, or in the open FIR at higher altitudes? If not, then why bother with such equipment?
Airliners are on very shaky ground when operating in the open FIR on a RIS, which is a very good reason to have a transponder. Recall incident with Flybe Dash 8 and a couple of Fast Blacks over the Irish sea?? I wonder how many times you have flown fairly close to the base of overcast cloud and never thought that something may be descending through it?? A transponder in this case would make you more visible to ATC (if within radar range which is very likely) and the a/c if TCAS was installed. In fact, it could save your bacon!!
Robin – You seem against the idea of having such equipment fitted to you’re a/c. Can I ask why?
The way that I look at transponders is in the realm of flight safety. It’s a relatively inexpensive bit of electronic magic, that when the proverbial hit’s the fan and you are getting even a FIS from a chap/chapess with radar, SAR will have an infinitely better chance of getting to you. Of that there is no doubt.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540Robin – You seem against the idea of having such equipment fitted to you’re a/c. Can I ask why?
The way that I look at transponders is in the realm of flight safety. It’s a relatively inexpensive bit of electronic magic, that when the proverbial hit’s the fan and you are getting even a FIS from a chap/chapess with radar, SAR will have an infinitely better chance of getting to you. Of that there is no doubt.
The way that I look at transponders is in the realm of flight safety. It’s a relatively inexpensive bit of electronic magic, that when the proverbial hit’s the fan and you are getting even a FIS from a chap/chapess with radar, SAR will have an infinitely better chance of getting to you. Of that there is no doubt.
If I am told I have to power a transponder as well, then I have a decision to make as to which one(s) I don't use
As I fly almost exclusively in areas of poor radar service for GA (they tell me to standby a lot) I get little back for any potential spend.
You might say that by transponding I am helping flight safety by letting guys with deeper pockets than me see me on their TCAS. I don't have that luxury myself, although I have been nearly run down a few times by pilots flying straight and level and acting in what I can only describe as a bovine manner, ignoring the rules of the air.
I am still alive, as I don't trust anyone to take care of my life for me when in the air.
You have to remember that most of the policies emenating from the CAA are designed to help well-equipped aircraft. Very little is designed in for PFA-types or show any understanding of issues, such as power requirements, radiation issues or w/b when an aircraft, flown single-seat is already at MAUW
What may be being suggested is that the lightest and cheapest aircraft are to be not only equipped with a transponder but also a TCAS. 2 pieces of expensive kit, costing more than the purchase value of, say, an Evans VP, but adding nothing to the owner/operator, who has been flying safely for many years without them.
Yes, in certainly areas in the SE or around the tight spots we need to be sure we are flying safely - that might involve simply weaving to show a bigger profile. But in some areas in the south and west the need has not been demonstrated
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Yes, in certainly areas in the SE or around the tight spots we need to be sure we are flying safely - that might involve simply weaving to show a bigger profile. But in some areas in the south and west the need has not been demonstrated"
Yes my point exactly as set out in my earlier post.
Is it your and everyone elses view that the issues I raised earlier are / are not of concern?
Yes my point exactly as set out in my earlier post.
Is it your and everyone elses view that the issues I raised earlier are / are not of concern?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
Aircraft operating in IMC are required to be equipped with at least mode C and presumably the majority will convert to mode S.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry - I should have made it clear that this was a reference to BEagle's recommendations in so far as proposed changes are concerned.
My other comment was made on the basis that if you use your aircraft to operate in IMC, there is a good chance operations will at least include class D and maybe class A and given the cost of already keeping the aircraft legal to do so it would seem likely to fit mode S.
My other comment was made on the basis that if you use your aircraft to operate in IMC, there is a good chance operations will at least include class D and maybe class A and given the cost of already keeping the aircraft legal to do so it would seem likely to fit mode S.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m not too sure there are that many types, even PFA or on Permits, that would be that financially hit to the extent that a basic Garmin GTX320A would render them grounded!! It’s all in context. Do you fly in controlled airspace frequently, mixing with the big boys, or in the open FIR at higher altitudes? If not, then why bother with such equipment?
Airliners are on very shaky ground when operating in the open FIR on a RIS, which is a very good reason to have a transponder. Recall incident with Flybe Dash 8 and a couple of Fast Blacks over the Irish sea?? I wonder how many times you have flown fairly close to the base of overcast cloud and never thought that something may be descending through it?? A transponder in this case would make you more visible to ATC (if within radar range which is very likely) and the a/c if TCAS was installed. In fact, it could save your bacon!!
Airliners are on very shaky ground when operating in the open FIR on a RIS, which is a very good reason to have a transponder. Recall incident with Flybe Dash 8 and a couple of Fast Blacks over the Irish sea?? I wonder how many times you have flown fairly close to the base of overcast cloud and never thought that something may be descending through it?? A transponder in this case would make you more visible to ATC (if within radar range which is very likely) and the a/c if TCAS was installed. In fact, it could save your bacon!!
Robin has pretty much addressed what you have said, but just to re-iterate.
I would be financially hit! and so would others like me. My T31m has cost me around £2500 to buy as a glider and convert. I'm a farm manager on a pretty low wage and have 5 kids. Operating a small single seater from a home strip is about the only way I can afford to fly. Quite apart from the fact that there is physically no room, enough power or payload to carry a transponder ... it would also cost more than the flippin aeroplane!
You say "Do you fly in controlled airspace frequently, mixing with the big boys, or in the open FIR at higher altitudes? If not, then why bother with such equipment?" ... No I don't, and I wouldn't bother, it's the fact that it may be made compulsory that gets me bothered!
The point I was making is that TCAS is bl@@dy useless as an aid to cover your arse if not everybody carries one. If the likes of me are allowed to continue to operate non transponder equipped (which I sincerely hope is the case) then TCAS in non controlled airspace is not going to help much is it?
SS
And long may folk such as Shortstripper continue to enjoy basic VFR flight freedom without some suit in the Belgrano requiring them to fit a transponder!
There should reasonably be no difficulty in denoting low level VFR-only Class E routes within Class D CAS to afford access to non-tranponder equipped aircraft of less than 2000kg.
The cost of fitting a transponder to an aircraft which does not have an electrical system or height encoding altimeter is not insignificant. It most certainly would affect a lot of people if this stupid 'Mode S-for-all' idea ever became reality.
There should reasonably be no difficulty in denoting low level VFR-only Class E routes within Class D CAS to afford access to non-tranponder equipped aircraft of less than 2000kg.
The cost of fitting a transponder to an aircraft which does not have an electrical system or height encoding altimeter is not insignificant. It most certainly would affect a lot of people if this stupid 'Mode S-for-all' idea ever became reality.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: united kingdom
Age: 63
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally have no issue with carriage of transponders or non carriage 
My problem is that at the moment if you don't have a transponder there are alot of aircraft out there that have no protection. We can all say that we operate see and be seen. And we can also all say that we have almost been hit by some numpty that either didn't give way when he should have or he just didn't see us.
What you have to convince their majesties in the ivory towers is that if you don't have transponders, be they mode "C" or Mode "S", you won't get in to CAS when you are not supposed to be there
if you can do that, then you wont need a transponder.
BUT I don't think the EASYJET or RYANAIR pilots will accept that you dont need a transponder when a microlight goes in to CAS with no transponder and gets very close to them.
My problem is that at the moment if you don't have a transponder there are alot of aircraft out there that have no protection. We can all say that we operate see and be seen. And we can also all say that we have almost been hit by some numpty that either didn't give way when he should have or he just didn't see us.What you have to convince their majesties in the ivory towers is that if you don't have transponders, be they mode "C" or Mode "S", you won't get in to CAS when you are not supposed to be there
if you can do that, then you wont need a transponder.
BUT I don't think the EASYJET or RYANAIR pilots will accept that you dont need a transponder when a microlight goes in to CAS with no transponder and gets very close to them.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No - the problem we will be facing is that Sleazyjet and Chavair will be routing through Class G to save fuel and time and expecting the microlights/gliders and VP1s to squawk so that they can use their TCAS for separation
Worse, they will use the fact that they are able to choose their own routings as a way of depriving GA access to Class G around regional airfields using safety as an excuse
Given the savings they expect to make (ie extra profit) they could pay for the fitting of transponders for everyone.
Unfortunately they fail to understand that we can't all fit transponders to all our aircraft.
Even the military won't all be fitted with transponders, so you will all be at risk of being wiped out by a Tornado, even if you are TCAS equipped.
Worse, they will use the fact that they are able to choose their own routings as a way of depriving GA access to Class G around regional airfields using safety as an excuse
Given the savings they expect to make (ie extra profit) they could pay for the fitting of transponders for everyone.
Unfortunately they fail to understand that we can't all fit transponders to all our aircraft.
Even the military won't all be fitted with transponders, so you will all be at risk of being wiped out by a Tornado, even if you are TCAS equipped.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The way I see it is that the introduction of Mode S is designed to "protect" CAT from GA aircraft while they are in the Class G (the airliners that is)......Nothing wrong with that, collisions do happen as we have seen recently with the Glider and the Hawker in the USA.
There are several ways it appears this can be done:
a) Either madate that all aircraft are transponder equipped, so CAT can see them on their TCAS and be responsible for their own safety
b) Increase the size of CAS so that the CAT aircraft have climbed to a safe level before leaving CAS or entering enroute CAS
A far simpler and cheaper option IMO, which would not force transponders on aircraft that can't have them would be to introduce Mode C vales, like the US has. So if you want to operate within 30nm (or whatever) of an airport while remaining outside their CAS you must have mode C fitted and be transponding. If you want to enter their CAS, you will require Mode C and an ATC clearance, and to enter airways Mode S.
This way VFR bimblers in simple machines can remain outside of these areas, and go about their business not transponding or communicating. Training aircraft and people who enjoy the freedom of flying on long cross countries would require Mode C as a minimum, as many already have. Funkier machines or people who use their aircraft as a form of transport under VFR and IFR in the airways would realistically require Mode S.
I will always fly with a transponder, it is a personal choice, though do object to being forced to spend 000's of pounds on a piece of kit to replace my perfectly serviceable mode C transponder.
There are several ways it appears this can be done:
a) Either madate that all aircraft are transponder equipped, so CAT can see them on their TCAS and be responsible for their own safety
b) Increase the size of CAS so that the CAT aircraft have climbed to a safe level before leaving CAS or entering enroute CAS
A far simpler and cheaper option IMO, which would not force transponders on aircraft that can't have them would be to introduce Mode C vales, like the US has. So if you want to operate within 30nm (or whatever) of an airport while remaining outside their CAS you must have mode C fitted and be transponding. If you want to enter their CAS, you will require Mode C and an ATC clearance, and to enter airways Mode S.
This way VFR bimblers in simple machines can remain outside of these areas, and go about their business not transponding or communicating. Training aircraft and people who enjoy the freedom of flying on long cross countries would require Mode C as a minimum, as many already have. Funkier machines or people who use their aircraft as a form of transport under VFR and IFR in the airways would realistically require Mode S.
I will always fly with a transponder, it is a personal choice, though do object to being forced to spend 000's of pounds on a piece of kit to replace my perfectly serviceable mode C transponder.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: united kingdom
Age: 63
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robin,
Just which airfields that don't already have commercial operations at the moment are you thinking of? If you think that they will be operating below FL100 for all of their time in Class "G", I just don't know what route you are thinking of. Also I don't know of any airline that will willingly operate in Class "G" without a radar service of some kind.
Just which airfields that don't already have commercial operations at the moment are you thinking of? If you think that they will be operating below FL100 for all of their time in Class "G", I just don't know what route you are thinking of. Also I don't know of any airline that will willingly operate in Class "G" without a radar service of some kind.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't get this "airliners in Class G" business either.
Operations from Class G airports usually involve rapid climbs/descents into Class A. The exposure of the airliner is very short and it would be under a radar service from somebody.
I reckon Mode S is coming because of all the CAS busts by GA.
The CAA would do themselves a big favour by doing something on the PPL training side of things.
Operations from Class G airports usually involve rapid climbs/descents into Class A. The exposure of the airliner is very short and it would be under a radar service from somebody.
I reckon Mode S is coming because of all the CAS busts by GA.
The CAA would do themselves a big favour by doing something on the PPL training side of things.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by englishal
A far simpler and cheaper option IMO, which would not force transponders on aircraft that can't have them would be to introduce Mode C vales, like the US has. So if you want to operate within 30nm (or whatever) of an airport while remaining outside their CAS you must have mode C fitted and be transponding. If you want to enter their CAS, you will require Mode C and an ATC clearance, and to enter airways Mode S.
This way VFR bimblers in simple machines can remain outside of these areas, and go about their business not transponding or communicating. Training aircraft and people who enjoy the freedom of flying on long cross countries would require Mode C as a minimum, as many already have. Funkier machines or people who use their aircraft as a form of transport under VFR and IFR in the airways would realistically require Mode S.
This way VFR bimblers in simple machines can remain outside of these areas, and go about their business not transponding or communicating. Training aircraft and people who enjoy the freedom of flying on long cross countries would require Mode C as a minimum, as many already have. Funkier machines or people who use their aircraft as a form of transport under VFR and IFR in the airways would realistically require Mode S.
The area between Heathrow and Gatwick
The area between Luton and Stansted
The LLR near Manchester
Do those areas become "exceptions", do we just accept that non-transponder aircraft can't use them, or have I missed something?
Infact, having just looked at a chart, by the time you've put veils that size (or similar) around a couple of the busiest airports in the south-east, you've decimated gliding at Lasham and Dunstable (and others, but you get the idea) made places like Southend/Blackbushe/NorthWeald! (and others, but you get the idea) all transponder-required airports.
May as well just make it a mode C veil from Coventry south
Last edited by rustle; 29th Sep 2006 at 21:36. Reason: Forgot some airports!
"The CAA would do themselves a big favour by doing something on the PPL training side of things"
Oh, yadda, yadda, yadda. Here we go again. More "Praise de Lord for GPS" coming up soon from IO540....
It's not the recent PPL pilots who bust CAS - it's the lazy so-and-sos who cannot be bothered to navigate properly irrespective of whatever system they use.
The Mode S debate must allow for everyone who flies GA. Whether VFR PFA types pottering about in wooden permit aeroplanes or silicon chip enthusiasts who fly in CAS regularly in tin Spamcans.
Oh, yadda, yadda, yadda. Here we go again. More "Praise de Lord for GPS" coming up soon from IO540....
It's not the recent PPL pilots who bust CAS - it's the lazy so-and-sos who cannot be bothered to navigate properly irrespective of whatever system they use.
The Mode S debate must allow for everyone who flies GA. Whether VFR PFA types pottering about in wooden permit aeroplanes or silicon chip enthusiasts who fly in CAS regularly in tin Spamcans.
Last edited by BEagle; 29th Sep 2006 at 23:12.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You should assume less, Beagle, and wonder instead what is driving this whole thing.
Do you have data on airspace busts versus pilot age, currency, # of years PPL held, etc? The ontrack survey seems to have missed that, IIRC.
Do you have data on airspace busts versus pilot age, currency, # of years PPL held, etc? The ontrack survey seems to have missed that, IIRC.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by IO540
Do you have data on airspace busts versus pilot age, currency, # of years PPL held, etc? The ontrack survey seems to have missed that, IIRC.
Do you have a reference for that phenomenon?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am still interested how pilots operating IFR / IMC in open FIR without a RIS view this.
I happen to live very near a VOR that is used a lot for training, is on a major airway and used by pilots operating both VFR and IFR. I find it interesting how often I see aircraft flying just below the base in and out of IMC. I know some of the aircraft are not IFR certified.
Do you just rely on the big sky theory to maintain seperation?
Do you wish in these circumstances every aircraft had a transponder?
Do you wish every pilot obeyed the rules and you could safely assume they would not be in front of you as you broke IMC?
How many of us have actually used TCAS in a light aircraft?
I happen to live very near a VOR that is used a lot for training, is on a major airway and used by pilots operating both VFR and IFR. I find it interesting how often I see aircraft flying just below the base in and out of IMC. I know some of the aircraft are not IFR certified.
Do you just rely on the big sky theory to maintain seperation?
Do you wish in these circumstances every aircraft had a transponder?
Do you wish every pilot obeyed the rules and you could safely assume they would not be in front of you as you broke IMC?
How many of us have actually used TCAS in a light aircraft?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, well, my question certainly seems to have opened a can of worms here.
Shortstripper has hit the nail on the head regarding the type of flying I plan to do.
All this TCAS & Mode c/s/what ever is just a total & utter waste of time to even contemplate from a cost & weight/power consumption point of view.
I do not intend to go near class A,B,C & probably D airspace, so I do not envisage ever needing to know where the "big stuff" is.
A simple five bob GPS will tell you where you are. All I want to see is perhaps a ten bob GPS compulsorily fitted to or carried by everything that flies that will comunicate with every other ten bob GPS in a radius of 20nm. & display said information on a screen, proximity warning also should not be beyond the bounds of possibility. Ten bob is not meant to be literal by the way!!
This departs completely from "normal" aviation thinking which is usually the current buzz word carried down the mountain on tablets of stone by "them".
It requires some sort of radical out of the box design work by some forward thinking electronics whizkid.
We have mobile phone technology going through the roof for the cost of a fish supper, we have GPSystems becoming ever more accurate, we have calculators running off solar power.
I am probably being ridiculously simplistic here, how difficult is it??
If such a device were to be produced at a cost of a few £hundreds, I would guess that the manufacturer would make a fortune from GA, Microlighters Gyros Hillwalkers & anyone who wants to know where help or danger is, depending on how you use it.
I apologise for screwing up a perfectly logical thread based as it is on current thinking. But I am hoping to generate "out of the box" ideas.
Trevor. NPPL student with a yen for a Kitfox.
Shortstripper has hit the nail on the head regarding the type of flying I plan to do.
All this TCAS & Mode c/s/what ever is just a total & utter waste of time to even contemplate from a cost & weight/power consumption point of view.
I do not intend to go near class A,B,C & probably D airspace, so I do not envisage ever needing to know where the "big stuff" is.
A simple five bob GPS will tell you where you are. All I want to see is perhaps a ten bob GPS compulsorily fitted to or carried by everything that flies that will comunicate with every other ten bob GPS in a radius of 20nm. & display said information on a screen, proximity warning also should not be beyond the bounds of possibility. Ten bob is not meant to be literal by the way!!
This departs completely from "normal" aviation thinking which is usually the current buzz word carried down the mountain on tablets of stone by "them".
It requires some sort of radical out of the box design work by some forward thinking electronics whizkid.
We have mobile phone technology going through the roof for the cost of a fish supper, we have GPSystems becoming ever more accurate, we have calculators running off solar power.
I am probably being ridiculously simplistic here, how difficult is it??
If such a device were to be produced at a cost of a few £hundreds, I would guess that the manufacturer would make a fortune from GA, Microlighters Gyros Hillwalkers & anyone who wants to know where help or danger is, depending on how you use it.
I apologise for screwing up a perfectly logical thread based as it is on current thinking. But I am hoping to generate "out of the box" ideas.
Trevor. NPPL student with a yen for a Kitfox.
For any GPS to 'communicate' with another GPS would require:
Your position ro become a floating waypoint.
This information is somehow uplinked. How do you propose to do that?
The information is downlinked. How do you propose to receive it?
The information is displayed. For it to be of any use, it would require a rapid refresh rate.
Now think about the bandwidth needed for several 'GPS' transponders to do this.
Or just LOOK OUT OF THE WINDOW!
Your position ro become a floating waypoint.
This information is somehow uplinked. How do you propose to do that?
The information is downlinked. How do you propose to receive it?
The information is displayed. For it to be of any use, it would require a rapid refresh rate.
Now think about the bandwidth needed for several 'GPS' transponders to do this.
Or just LOOK OUT OF THE WINDOW!