Why Do NOTAMS like this?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
Why Do NOTAMS like this?
There are some notams concerning tempory restricted areas around the Ryder Cup which is on in the K Club (just to the west of Dublin, in County Kildare) at the moment.
But the way that the notams have been written ensure that
A) everyone who flys through any part of Ireland gets the notam even if they are going nowhere near the restricted airspace, & more annoyingly
B) completely defeats all graphical notam systems.
The centre of the Notam is put about a hundred miles out into the Atlantic, and the radius given is over 200nm.
Couldn't they just do it the way the system was intended, and only brief those who need to know (rather than try to over load them with info they don't need), and make it easier for those who do need to know to see it on a graphical system?
Q)EISN/QPFCA/I/NBO/E/000/999/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1818/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E) FLOW CONTROL PROCEDURE ACTIVATED
VFR FLIGHTS EXCEPT RYDER CUP APPROVED FLIGHTS REQUIRE SPECIAL
PERMISSION FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN DUBLIN CTR.
MIN 2 HOUR PRIOR NOTICE TO DUBLIN ATC, TEL +353 1 8144662
Q)EISN/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1793/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E) TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ACTIVATED. AREA 532359.31N 0065023.62W,
532339.36N 0064349.58W, 531436.70N 0063707.33W, 531041.06N
0064856.22W, ARC CENTERED EIME ARP 531810.771N 0062719.4621W RADIUS
15NM, GROUND TO 3000FT AMSL. AREA RESTRICTED TO RYDER CUP
APPROVED OPERATIONS. REF SUP 23/06
F)GND G)3000FT AMSL
Q)EISN/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1792/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E) TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ACTIVATED. AREA 532201.63N 0064236.91W,
532428.1647N 0064425.6747W, 532358.9537N 0063500W, 532104.6705N
0063500W, GROUND TO 3000FT AMSL. AREA RESTRICTED TO RYDER CUP
APPROVED OPERATIONS. REF SUP 23/06
F)GND G)3000FT AMSL
NAVW: Q)EISN/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1794/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E)TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ACTIVATED. AREA 531438.76N 0062541.9900W,
531021.1900N 0063359.0000W, 531436.7000N 0063707.3300W, GROUND TO
3000FT AMSL. AREA RESTRICTED TO RYDER CUP
APPROVED OPERATIONS. REF SUP 23/06
F)GND G)3000FT AMSL
NAVW: Q)EISN/QRRCA/IV/BO/W/000/999/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1816/06
D)0600-1900
E)EIR15 AND ADJACENT TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREAS ESTABLISHED FOR RYDER
CUP EVENT ACTIVATED. NO ACFT EXCEPT STATE ACFT, IRISH COASTGUARD
ANDACFT WITH RYDER CUP CALLSIGN ROUTING TO AND FROM K CLUB OR
DESGINATEDFEEDER SITES SHALL BE PERMITTED TO ENTER RESTRICTED
AIRSPACE.
REF SUP23/06, NOTAM A1792/06, A1793/06, A1794/06
F)SFC G)UNL
Even parachute jumps near Kerry Airport get the same treatment! Does someone flying from Sligo to Donegal really need to know about a parachute jump in Kerry???
Q)EISN/QWPLW/IV/M/W/000/100/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/23 07:00 TO 06/09/24 19:30 A1878/06
D)DAILY 0700-1930
E) PARACHUTE JUMPING EXERCISES WILL TAKE PLACE, WITH TAKE OFF
FROM KERRY AIRPORT AND DROPS 10NM NORTHWEST AT 5020.5N 0945.6W
(ARDFERT) AT FL100. OPERATING RADIUS 3NM OF ARDFERT.
F)GND G)10000FT AGL
But the way that the notams have been written ensure that
A) everyone who flys through any part of Ireland gets the notam even if they are going nowhere near the restricted airspace, & more annoyingly
B) completely defeats all graphical notam systems.
The centre of the Notam is put about a hundred miles out into the Atlantic, and the radius given is over 200nm.
Couldn't they just do it the way the system was intended, and only brief those who need to know (rather than try to over load them with info they don't need), and make it easier for those who do need to know to see it on a graphical system?
Q)EISN/QPFCA/I/NBO/E/000/999/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1818/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E) FLOW CONTROL PROCEDURE ACTIVATED
VFR FLIGHTS EXCEPT RYDER CUP APPROVED FLIGHTS REQUIRE SPECIAL
PERMISSION FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN DUBLIN CTR.
MIN 2 HOUR PRIOR NOTICE TO DUBLIN ATC, TEL +353 1 8144662
Q)EISN/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1793/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E) TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ACTIVATED. AREA 532359.31N 0065023.62W,
532339.36N 0064349.58W, 531436.70N 0063707.33W, 531041.06N
0064856.22W, ARC CENTERED EIME ARP 531810.771N 0062719.4621W RADIUS
15NM, GROUND TO 3000FT AMSL. AREA RESTRICTED TO RYDER CUP
APPROVED OPERATIONS. REF SUP 23/06
F)GND G)3000FT AMSL
Q)EISN/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1792/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E) TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ACTIVATED. AREA 532201.63N 0064236.91W,
532428.1647N 0064425.6747W, 532358.9537N 0063500W, 532104.6705N
0063500W, GROUND TO 3000FT AMSL. AREA RESTRICTED TO RYDER CUP
APPROVED OPERATIONS. REF SUP 23/06
F)GND G)3000FT AMSL
NAVW: Q)EISN/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1794/06
D)DAILY 0600-1900
E)TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ACTIVATED. AREA 531438.76N 0062541.9900W,
531021.1900N 0063359.0000W, 531436.7000N 0063707.3300W, GROUND TO
3000FT AMSL. AREA RESTRICTED TO RYDER CUP
APPROVED OPERATIONS. REF SUP 23/06
F)GND G)3000FT AMSL
NAVW: Q)EISN/QRRCA/IV/BO/W/000/999/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/18 06:00 TO 06/09/25 19:00 A1816/06
D)0600-1900
E)EIR15 AND ADJACENT TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREAS ESTABLISHED FOR RYDER
CUP EVENT ACTIVATED. NO ACFT EXCEPT STATE ACFT, IRISH COASTGUARD
ANDACFT WITH RYDER CUP CALLSIGN ROUTING TO AND FROM K CLUB OR
DESGINATEDFEEDER SITES SHALL BE PERMITTED TO ENTER RESTRICTED
AIRSPACE.
REF SUP23/06, NOTAM A1792/06, A1793/06, A1794/06
F)SFC G)UNL
Even parachute jumps near Kerry Airport get the same treatment! Does someone flying from Sligo to Donegal really need to know about a parachute jump in Kerry???
Q)EISN/QWPLW/IV/M/W/000/100/5313N01035W213
FROM 06/09/23 07:00 TO 06/09/24 19:30 A1878/06
D)DAILY 0700-1930
E) PARACHUTE JUMPING EXERCISES WILL TAKE PLACE, WITH TAKE OFF
FROM KERRY AIRPORT AND DROPS 10NM NORTHWEST AT 5020.5N 0945.6W
(ARDFERT) AT FL100. OPERATING RADIUS 3NM OF ARDFERT.
F)GND G)10000FT AGL
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: Up there somewhere
Many people do fly Nav Ex's.
The Central point over the Atlantic, I think, is to be as considerate as possible to other fliers, to free up land space on the other side. Makes far more sense to centre something considerately. Might also take into account other traffic, such as the many film crews who take to the skies for the event.
The Central point over the Atlantic, I think, is to be as considerate as possible to other fliers, to free up land space on the other side. Makes far more sense to centre something considerately. Might also take into account other traffic, such as the many film crews who take to the skies for the event.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
Not really sure what you're saying Flick Roll.
The restricted areas are actually quite small, and in a very busy piece of airspace around Dublin/Weston/Baldonnel aerodromes.
I'm not complaining about the restricted area itself, if that's what you think. I'm complaining about the way the notam is coded. It is done in such a way that these small areas are shown on a graphical system as covering the whole country. Someone decided that everyone flying in Ireland needs to know about a small restricted area in complicated airspace, even if their flight doesn't come within 100 miles of the TRA.
So instead of being able to use Drauks nice graphical system to tell me if I'm going anywhere near the TRA, I have to plot every little point. How many pilots will do that? Wouldn't it be much easier if they just did it the way it's supposed to be done. Put a point in the centre, and a range of 10nm (which would more than cover the TRA). That way if I was going near it, I'd get the notam, and if I wasn't I wouldn't get it.
Have a look at the one I posted for the Parachute jump.
It's located in a place in the very south west of Ireland. The text says it's confined to 3nm around that area. Why should every pilot making a flight in Ireland need to be briefed on it?
If the notams in the UK were done in the same way, a brief would but multiples of it's current size.
This is what I get for a TRA that is smaller than one of those stars, and a parachute jump covering a 3nm area in the south west
dp
The restricted areas are actually quite small, and in a very busy piece of airspace around Dublin/Weston/Baldonnel aerodromes.
Might also take into account other traffic, such as the many film crews who take to the skies for the event.
So instead of being able to use Drauks nice graphical system to tell me if I'm going anywhere near the TRA, I have to plot every little point. How many pilots will do that? Wouldn't it be much easier if they just did it the way it's supposed to be done. Put a point in the centre, and a range of 10nm (which would more than cover the TRA). That way if I was going near it, I'd get the notam, and if I wasn't I wouldn't get it.
Have a look at the one I posted for the Parachute jump.
It's located in a place in the very south west of Ireland. The text says it's confined to 3nm around that area. Why should every pilot making a flight in Ireland need to be briefed on it?
If the notams in the UK were done in the same way, a brief would but multiples of it's current size.
This is what I get for a TRA that is smaller than one of those stars, and a parachute jump covering a 3nm area in the south west
dp
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Have you tried asking your AIS who is the originator and then asking them why they did it and raising a complaint if you don't get a good answer?
Of course if Ireland is like the UK you'll probably find that the regulator to whom you complain is also the perpetrator of that which you complain about.
Of course if Ireland is like the UK you'll probably find that the regulator to whom you complain is also the perpetrator of that which you complain about.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
From: Euroland
The reason for the location being out in the Atlantic and the radius being large is that whoever put the NOTAM into the system used the centre of the Shannon FIR as the point and a radius that encompasses the whole FIR. Remember that the FIR goes out to 15 West.
This is done where NOTAMS are for everyone who enters the FIR.
I would agree that in this case you are correct that a flight from Donegal to Sligo has absolutely no interest and furthermore, in areas such as the UK where this happens also, such irrelevant NOTAMs can hide the important ones. Thus making it less safe.
Why not ring the NOTAM office in Shannon and ask them?
Regards,
DFC
This is done where NOTAMS are for everyone who enters the FIR.
I would agree that in this case you are correct that a flight from Donegal to Sligo has absolutely no interest and furthermore, in areas such as the UK where this happens also, such irrelevant NOTAMs can hide the important ones. Thus making it less safe.
Why not ring the NOTAM office in Shannon and ask them?
Regards,
DFC
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
The problem is that if you are going to ring one notam office you will soon be ringing them all.
Cr*p is generated by every nation. And the moment you step outside the immediate bit of Europe you get reams of it like
RAC : Q)LGGG/QAFXX/IV/M/E/000/999/3730N02430E660
FROM 01/07/06 11:29 TO PERM A1040/01
E)REF AIP TURKEY PAGE RAC 3-1-4A WE STATE THE FLW :
IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATIONAL AGREEMENT
REACHED IN THE SECOND MIDDLE EAST REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION
MEETING (ISTANBUL 1950), THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BDRY
BTN POINTS 4045N2610E AND 3605N3000E COINCIDES WITH THE
WESTERN FRONTIER OF TURKEY.
THIS AGREEMENT WAS SUBSEQUENTLY APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL
ON 14 DEC 1950 (DOC 7055, MID/2-RAC).
FURTHERMORE THE SAID ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BDRY WAS DEPICTED
ON MAP NUMBER 7, ATTACHED TO THE REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION
AGREEMENT, WICH WAS REACHED IN THE THIRD REGIONAL AIR
NAVIGATION CONFERENCE (PARIS 1952) AND SUBSEQUENTLY
APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL ON 23 JUNE 1952.
CONSEQUENTLY, ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BDRY BTN THE ABOVE
MENTIONED POINTS LIES ON AN INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT APPROVED
BY ICAO AND ACCEPTED BY GREECE AND TURKEY.
Now, who are you going to phone up about that one?
The Greek prime minister, or the Turkish prime minister, or their respective heads of secret police?
This is life, I am afraid.
What suprises me is that a more refined notam system was not defined at the start. The algorithm for computing the intersect between a line and a polygon was developed back in the 1950s, in the earliest days of computing, not long after the one for computing an intersect between a line and a circle. So the "circle" business is silly.
Cr*p is generated by every nation. And the moment you step outside the immediate bit of Europe you get reams of it like
RAC : Q)LGGG/QAFXX/IV/M/E/000/999/3730N02430E660
FROM 01/07/06 11:29 TO PERM A1040/01
E)REF AIP TURKEY PAGE RAC 3-1-4A WE STATE THE FLW :
IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATIONAL AGREEMENT
REACHED IN THE SECOND MIDDLE EAST REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION
MEETING (ISTANBUL 1950), THE ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BDRY
BTN POINTS 4045N2610E AND 3605N3000E COINCIDES WITH THE
WESTERN FRONTIER OF TURKEY.
THIS AGREEMENT WAS SUBSEQUENTLY APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL
ON 14 DEC 1950 (DOC 7055, MID/2-RAC).
FURTHERMORE THE SAID ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BDRY WAS DEPICTED
ON MAP NUMBER 7, ATTACHED TO THE REGIONAL AIR NAVIGATION
AGREEMENT, WICH WAS REACHED IN THE THIRD REGIONAL AIR
NAVIGATION CONFERENCE (PARIS 1952) AND SUBSEQUENTLY
APPROVED BY THE ICAO COUNCIL ON 23 JUNE 1952.
CONSEQUENTLY, ATHINAI/ISTANBUL FIR BDRY BTN THE ABOVE
MENTIONED POINTS LIES ON AN INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT APPROVED
BY ICAO AND ACCEPTED BY GREECE AND TURKEY.
Now, who are you going to phone up about that one?
The Greek prime minister, or the Turkish prime minister, or their respective heads of secret police?This is life, I am afraid.
What suprises me is that a more refined notam system was not defined at the start. The algorithm for computing the intersect between a line and a polygon was developed back in the 1950s, in the earliest days of computing, not long after the one for computing an intersect between a line and a circle. So the "circle" business is silly.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Following from UK AIS who saw your post DP
Mike
AIS Shannon migrated to EAD some time ago and they are responsible for NOTAM origination. Further information and a list of migrated states can be obtained from the EAD website.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
From: Daventry UK
It's not just us! Avweb just carried this column:
As the Beacon Turns #105: NOTAM -- The NOTAM System Is Broke (Apologies to those who've seen it already).
As for the national importance of the Ryder cup, the Weston area is a choke point for GA traffic in Ireland especially as many UK flights route "along the river" so there may be some justification for the coverage. And anyway, they don't get many Notams, so why not make a splash?
As the Beacon Turns #105: NOTAM -- The NOTAM System Is Broke (Apologies to those who've seen it already).
As for the national importance of the Ryder cup, the Weston area is a choke point for GA traffic in Ireland especially as many UK flights route "along the river" so there may be some justification for the coverage. And anyway, they don't get many Notams, so why not make a splash?
