God bless TCAS
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God bless TCAS
Just a quick thought before I go to bed for all those TCAS nay-sayers out there.
This morning as I was in the descent in to Gloucester in VMC at about 0800 (on indemnity as they do not open until 0830) passing 2500ft about 10 miles South of Staverton my newly installed BF Goodrich TCAS picked up traffic apparently heading in a reciprocal direction and climbing out of Staverton. I had just signed off with Filton and I had already made 1 blind call to Gloucs traffic so I put my landing lights on and made another call for good measure. I had apparently missed the departing aircraft's calls and would guess he was speaking to ? Brize Radar - maybe he had me on TCAS - maybe Brize had advised him of my proximity - maybe not.
As we drew closer the traffic got upgraded to proximate traffic
(looks just like this emoticon in fact but with an altitude trend and relative altitude tag) and I got a verbal annunciation through my headset before I was visible with the twin that was climbing out (King Air?) at a distance of half a mile. I increased my rate of descent in order to be at least 500 ft below and we passed one over the other with safe separation at a closing speed that must have been in excess of 350kts (I was doing over 190kts).
My point is - this all happened within a time frame of about 2 minutes and I got a hell of a lot more warning of impending collision than if I were using the mark 1 eyeball (I had 3 seconds visual contact as we passed) - this early warning enabled me to maintain safe separation without extreme maneuvering. Without TCAS it would have been a lot closer as my planned descent track would have had me right on top of him.
TCAS is worth every penny in my opinion - it really is great. It may have saved my bacon.
God bless you Mr Goodrich
for you have purveyed a truly great gadget at a price that I consider vastly inferior to that of my life. 
SB
This morning as I was in the descent in to Gloucester in VMC at about 0800 (on indemnity as they do not open until 0830) passing 2500ft about 10 miles South of Staverton my newly installed BF Goodrich TCAS picked up traffic apparently heading in a reciprocal direction and climbing out of Staverton. I had just signed off with Filton and I had already made 1 blind call to Gloucs traffic so I put my landing lights on and made another call for good measure. I had apparently missed the departing aircraft's calls and would guess he was speaking to ? Brize Radar - maybe he had me on TCAS - maybe Brize had advised him of my proximity - maybe not.
As we drew closer the traffic got upgraded to proximate traffic
(looks just like this emoticon in fact but with an altitude trend and relative altitude tag) and I got a verbal annunciation through my headset before I was visible with the twin that was climbing out (King Air?) at a distance of half a mile. I increased my rate of descent in order to be at least 500 ft below and we passed one over the other with safe separation at a closing speed that must have been in excess of 350kts (I was doing over 190kts).My point is - this all happened within a time frame of about 2 minutes and I got a hell of a lot more warning of impending collision than if I were using the mark 1 eyeball (I had 3 seconds visual contact as we passed) - this early warning enabled me to maintain safe separation without extreme maneuvering. Without TCAS it would have been a lot closer as my planned descent track would have had me right on top of him.
TCAS is worth every penny in my opinion - it really is great. It may have saved my bacon.
God bless you Mr Goodrich
for you have purveyed a truly great gadget at a price that I consider vastly inferior to that of my life. SB
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IO, I would totally dispute that 95% of the traffic is not seen by TCAS.
Where does that figure come from?
Is it that 95% of all GA aircraft are not xpdr equipped?
That is very different to 95% of all traffic not being visible on TCAS because the xpdr equipped A/C fly far more hours and generally in worse conditions.
When Exeter or Plymouth tell me that there are 5 or 6 locally flying VFR aircraft in their area I see them almost always and usually with a mode C readout.
In my experience comparing the mark 1 eyeball with the TCAS the contrary is true - 95% of all traffic is visible on TCAS, especially in poor weather and at higher levels.
It is truly a beautiful thing and I hope to never fly without it.
SB
Where does that figure come from?
Is it that 95% of all GA aircraft are not xpdr equipped?
That is very different to 95% of all traffic not being visible on TCAS because the xpdr equipped A/C fly far more hours and generally in worse conditions.
When Exeter or Plymouth tell me that there are 5 or 6 locally flying VFR aircraft in their area I see them almost always and usually with a mode C readout.
In my experience comparing the mark 1 eyeball with the TCAS the contrary is true - 95% of all traffic is visible on TCAS, especially in poor weather and at higher levels.
It is truly a beautiful thing and I hope to never fly without it.
SB
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When Exeter or Plymouth tell me that there are 5 or 6 locally flying VFR aircraft in their area I see them almost always and usually with a mode C readout.
In my experience comparing the mark 1 eyeball with the TCAS the contrary is true - 95% of all traffic is visible on TCAS, especially in poor weather and at higher levels.
It is truly a beautiful thing and I hope to never fly without it.
SB
In my experience comparing the mark 1 eyeball with the TCAS the contrary is true - 95% of all traffic is visible on TCAS, especially in poor weather and at higher levels.
It is truly a beautiful thing and I hope to never fly without it.
SB
At Branscombe in July there were around 80-100 aircraft 10 miles from Exeter positioning to land at various times during the day. I would strongly doubt whether your TCAS would have been able to see most of them, let alone identify a Mode C readout from them.
And it is worrying that you feel that your TCAS is better than Mk1 Eyeball in a very active area of PFA/Microlight/glider flying.
Yes TCAS is extremely useful, but is not the answer in all situations. It is also true that it helps in poor weather and at altitude, but by definition the PFA types won't be there.
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The figure is based on flying under a radar information service and seeing how many of the reported contacts are "level unknown".
The % clearly varies with the altitude. Probably below 2000ft the % is at least 90%. If you encountered a lot of microlights it would be higher still. With gliders it would be close to 100%.
Above say 5000ft, nearly everybody is transponding but IMHO that reflects the different sort of pilots, different planes and probably also flight rules (not many VFR-only people will be flying at 5k in the UK) that fly higher up.
I would buy TCAS tomorrow if transponders were mandatory for VFR. But they are not and - without wishing to start another Mode S thread - I can't see that they will become mandatory for microlights and similar. However, few people flying those types (that I think will be exempted) fly above say 2000ft and flying "high" is thus a very good defence for traffic enroute. So the case for TCAS OCAS in the UK isn't that good IMHO, for for the installed cost of £10k-15k.
The risk with terminal (circuit) traffic remains and I suppose the usefulness of TCAS will depend on the traffic mix you get at the airfield you are going to. If it is microlight-heavy then TCAS will be of little use. You just have to keep the best possible lookout and hope for the best, for the few minutes that you are in the circuit.
Robin - the Mk1 eyeball so beloved of aviation traditionalists is actually pretty useless, but let's not ruin such a fondly held and propagated legend that has seen off Germany in two world wars
A plane on a true collission course will be a completely stationary point, until the impact. I think this is a problem which just does not have a comprehensive solution.
The % clearly varies with the altitude. Probably below 2000ft the % is at least 90%. If you encountered a lot of microlights it would be higher still. With gliders it would be close to 100%.
Above say 5000ft, nearly everybody is transponding but IMHO that reflects the different sort of pilots, different planes and probably also flight rules (not many VFR-only people will be flying at 5k in the UK) that fly higher up.
I would buy TCAS tomorrow if transponders were mandatory for VFR. But they are not and - without wishing to start another Mode S thread - I can't see that they will become mandatory for microlights and similar. However, few people flying those types (that I think will be exempted) fly above say 2000ft and flying "high" is thus a very good defence for traffic enroute. So the case for TCAS OCAS in the UK isn't that good IMHO, for for the installed cost of £10k-15k.
The risk with terminal (circuit) traffic remains and I suppose the usefulness of TCAS will depend on the traffic mix you get at the airfield you are going to. If it is microlight-heavy then TCAS will be of little use. You just have to keep the best possible lookout and hope for the best, for the few minutes that you are in the circuit.
Robin - the Mk1 eyeball so beloved of aviation traditionalists is actually pretty useless, but let's not ruin such a fondly held and propagated legend that has seen off Germany in two world wars
A plane on a true collission course will be a completely stationary point, until the impact. I think this is a problem which just does not have a comprehensive solution.
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Robin - the Mk1 eyeball so beloved of aviation traditionalists is actually pretty useless, but let's not ruin such a fondly held and propagated legend that has seen off Germany in two world wars A plane on a true collission course will be a completely stationary point, until the impact. I think this is a problem which just does not have a comprehensive solution.
A plane on a true collission course will be a completely stationary point, until the impact. I think this is a problem which just does not have a comprehensive solution.My point is simply this - if you rely on a piece of electronics to tell you where potential conflicts are, then inevitably the lookout will begin to suffer. Especially if you are used to radar controllers telling you where things are - you will listen to the voices in your head and the little bleeping box on the panel. It is still your responsibility to look out the window from time to time - how frequently depends on the nature of the airspace.
At the speeds I fly and the levels I operate at, lookout is key, especially close to airfields. At some events I have attended most, but not all, aircraft were radio-equipped and were punctilious in their position reports. I wouldn't dream of assuming that I knew where all the aircraft were from radio calls, so I take the same view of TCAS
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Great point
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If I was in a string and basket triplane without a GPS far more time would need to be spent looking at the map and worrying whether I was about to enter CAS inadvertently.There is no argument here - TCAS is better than the mark 1 eyeball at spotting xpdr equipped contacts in any weather conditions, period, end of story.
This of course doesn't mean that I no longer use my eyeballs and it is absurd of you to feign concern at this assumption - I simply have additional direction finding equipment that tells me roughly where to look (as well as maintaining a full scan when I am in VMC). Let's not get into the sextant vs GPS argument about how all new technology is fine til it quits etc... this is a tedious one and I don't want to get IO started.
My point has in fact been reaffirmed by IO540.
When you are on a direct collision course (as I was) you need all the help you can get.
Even you eagle eyed handlebar moustached PFA types (I flew a PFA aircraft for 6 years) would struggle in a nose to nose situation - you would have a couple of seconds max in which to react.
The decision as to whether to fit TCAS is a financial and technical one - for me it has been an epiphany and all I wanted to do was share that with you.
Technology of this sort is simply a useful adjunct to the stick and rudder skills that we all have.
BTW there were no gliders, PFA types, balloons or microlights around between 0720 and 0800 on my route of flight - no thermals and Wx around Bristol was poor.
SB
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[quote=IO540;2862501]The figure is based on flying under a radar information service and seeing how many of the reported contacts are "level unknown".
Is that level unknown or unverified?
Two different things.
Most of the contact that I see as pop-ups have a level tag right next to them.
SB
Is that level unknown or unverified?
Two different things.
Most of the contact that I see as pop-ups have a level tag right next to them.
SB
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Robin, what made you think I had my eyes inside the cockpit all the time? If I was in a string and basket triplane without a GPS far more time would need to be spent looking at the map and worrying whether I was about to enter CAS inadvertently.
There is no argument here - TCAS is better than the mark 1 eyeball at spotting xpdr equipped contacts in any weather conditions, period, end of story.
This of course doesn't mean that I no longer use my eyeballs and it is absurd of you to feign concern at this assumption - I simply have additional direction finding equipment that tells me roughly where to look (as well as maintaining a full scan when I am in VMC).Even you eagle eyed handlebar moustached PFA types (I flew a PFA aircraft for 6 years) would struggle in a nose to nose situation - you would have a couple of seconds max in which to react.
The decision as to whether to fit TCAS is a financial and technical one - for me it has been an epiphany and all I wanted to do was share that with you.
Technology of this sort is simply a useful adjunct to the stick and rudder skills that we all have.
BTW there were no gliders, PFA types, balloons or microlights around between 0720 and 0800 on my route of flight - no thermals and Wx around Bristol was poor.
SB
If I was in a string and basket triplane without a GPS far more time would need to be spent looking at the map and worrying whether I was about to enter CAS inadvertently.There is no argument here - TCAS is better than the mark 1 eyeball at spotting xpdr equipped contacts in any weather conditions, period, end of story.
This of course doesn't mean that I no longer use my eyeballs and it is absurd of you to feign concern at this assumption - I simply have additional direction finding equipment that tells me roughly where to look (as well as maintaining a full scan when I am in VMC).Even you eagle eyed handlebar moustached PFA types (I flew a PFA aircraft for 6 years) would struggle in a nose to nose situation - you would have a couple of seconds max in which to react.
The decision as to whether to fit TCAS is a financial and technical one - for me it has been an epiphany and all I wanted to do was share that with you.
Technology of this sort is simply a useful adjunct to the stick and rudder skills that we all have.
BTW there were no gliders, PFA types, balloons or microlights around between 0720 and 0800 on my route of flight - no thermals and Wx around Bristol was poor.
SB
My point is quite simple, and we will agree on this - as long as TCAS users are fully aware that they are only detecting other transponder equipped aircraft, and then only when they are squawking Mode C. I bow to your own judgement of your abilities, but I have seen too many pilots switching on their autopilot and going into 'bovine' mode to be able to trust fully-equipped aircraft to even pretend to lookout.
As a handle-barred moustache veteran and hero of the PFA fleet, I don't want a TCAS-equipped person routing through Class G and running into the back of me, because he thought the airspace was clear as he hadn't seen me on TCAS (this nearly happened to a friend recently)
As my little toy can't accommodate a transponder, don't tell me I have to fit one.
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I have seen too many pilots switching on their autopilot and going into 'bovine' mode
Best to avoid phrases like that, IMHO.
An autopilot is the most fantastic reducer of cockpit workload, allowing the pilot to keep an eye on everything else - including looking outside.
Most accidents are pilot errors and most pilot errors would not have happened if the pilot had loads of time to think.
I like to fly manually some of the time, especially in IMC, but if I encounter any real workload, ON comes the autopilot immediately. If I was flying a microlight or permit type (which I may well be doing one day, when I get really old or go bankrupt) I will put in an autopilot. One can get some really good ones for non-cert types.
Most of the heroes in this business are either propping up the bar (with their hairy chests, gold medallions, leather caps and goggles) without actually flying anywhere, or they are 6 feet under because they messed up.
Best to avoid phrases like that, IMHO.
An autopilot is the most fantastic reducer of cockpit workload, allowing the pilot to keep an eye on everything else - including looking outside.
Most accidents are pilot errors and most pilot errors would not have happened if the pilot had loads of time to think.
I like to fly manually some of the time, especially in IMC, but if I encounter any real workload, ON comes the autopilot immediately. If I was flying a microlight or permit type (which I may well be doing one day, when I get really old or go bankrupt) I will put in an autopilot. One can get some really good ones for non-cert types.
Most of the heroes in this business are either propping up the bar (with their hairy chests, gold medallions, leather caps and goggles) without actually flying anywhere, or they are 6 feet under because they messed up.
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Most of the heroes in this business are either propping up the bar (with their hairy chests, gold medallions, leather caps and goggles) without actually flying anywhere, or they are 6 feet under because they messed up.
Horses for courses and all that. I appreciate your skills flying fast well equipped stuff and I'd hope you could appreciate my type of flying skills too (the "my" meaning all us PFA/BGA/MICROLIGHT types). We're not all bar props or dead, just like you're not all instrument fixated automatons!
SS
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Ah, again the dyed in the wool, "I'm harder than you" folks believe that those with TCAS only want one because they can't, won't, or don't look out, unlike PROPER pilots.
Again, a case of the 'head in the sand brigade' believing that everyone else is the ostrich! Nothing can beat the good old human eye, they truly seem to believe. Very few, if any, of these people have actual routine experience of using TCAS. They don't want it, or a transponder. They need to justify their "blinkered" view so they decry its use.
Having flown in Class G for nearly eight years now in TCAS 1 equipped aircraft (previously about 25 years without, up to 350 kts in Class G) the main point I have learned is that there are LOTS of aircraft out there, many of them unseen.
People believing they don't need TCAS are quite possibly of that opinion because they have routinely FAILED to see a lot of other aircraft and therefore underestimate the amount of other traffic actually out there!
Used correctly, TCAS can only enhance lookout. It has demonstrated to me time and time again the limits of the human eye, backing up everything the RAF taught me in that respect. The human vision IS quite limited for airborne use - because it was never designed to be used as such.
I know from my experience of using TCAS that most light aircraft often don't stand out at all well beyond 4 miles range against a mixed background. Given that my aircraft does 2.5 miles a minute and a light aircraft about 1.5, or even higher, this is 1 minute or less from unseen to a head on collision. I find it hard to understand how anyone prefers to decry a system that can indicate other traffic at far greater ranges.
BTW, an erroneous view was expressed earlier, TCAS WILL pick up a non-mode C squawk, but it obviously will not give an associated altitude readout.
Again, a case of the 'head in the sand brigade' believing that everyone else is the ostrich! Nothing can beat the good old human eye, they truly seem to believe. Very few, if any, of these people have actual routine experience of using TCAS. They don't want it, or a transponder. They need to justify their "blinkered" view so they decry its use.
Having flown in Class G for nearly eight years now in TCAS 1 equipped aircraft (previously about 25 years without, up to 350 kts in Class G) the main point I have learned is that there are LOTS of aircraft out there, many of them unseen.
People believing they don't need TCAS are quite possibly of that opinion because they have routinely FAILED to see a lot of other aircraft and therefore underestimate the amount of other traffic actually out there!
Used correctly, TCAS can only enhance lookout. It has demonstrated to me time and time again the limits of the human eye, backing up everything the RAF taught me in that respect. The human vision IS quite limited for airborne use - because it was never designed to be used as such.
I know from my experience of using TCAS that most light aircraft often don't stand out at all well beyond 4 miles range against a mixed background. Given that my aircraft does 2.5 miles a minute and a light aircraft about 1.5, or even higher, this is 1 minute or less from unseen to a head on collision. I find it hard to understand how anyone prefers to decry a system that can indicate other traffic at far greater ranges.
BTW, an erroneous view was expressed earlier, TCAS WILL pick up a non-mode C squawk, but it obviously will not give an associated altitude readout.
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Excuse my ignorance......................
Presumably TCAS relies on other aircraft being txpdr equipped - and that the txpdr is switched on?
There are approximately 8 regularly flying aircraft in our barn and at the Club I am a member of at least another 60-70. None have transponders. Because they are microlights and 'cheap' to opearte they are regularly flying.
Is there any chance at all that TCAS could make you complacent?
Just a thought
Presumably TCAS relies on other aircraft being txpdr equipped - and that the txpdr is switched on?
There are approximately 8 regularly flying aircraft in our barn and at the Club I am a member of at least another 60-70. None have transponders. Because they are microlights and 'cheap' to opearte they are regularly flying.
Is there any chance at all that TCAS could make you complacent?
Just a thought
It is good to hear someone out there questioning the good old Mk.1 Eyeball so beloved of many of our purists. I wonder if any of you out there have heard of empty field myopia?
This phenomenon is caused by the eyeball focusing on infinity and not being able to see objects up close.
I can remember being a student many years ago in a Vampire at altitude and being asked by my instructor if I could see the Valiant bomber converging at my 1 o'clock. I could see nothing. Sir asked me to look at my wingtip (to re-focus) and then look out again. There, almost in front of me, was this bl**dy great V-bomber which I could not see just a few seconds ago.
I was recently flying with my son and drew his attention to conflicting traffic. We had a re-run of the above and he was equally amazed that he had missed what he missed.
I already have a Mode S transponder and await with eager anticipation for the arrival of an affordable TCAS which I use and absolutely love in my day job.
This phenomenon is caused by the eyeball focusing on infinity and not being able to see objects up close.
I can remember being a student many years ago in a Vampire at altitude and being asked by my instructor if I could see the Valiant bomber converging at my 1 o'clock. I could see nothing. Sir asked me to look at my wingtip (to re-focus) and then look out again. There, almost in front of me, was this bl**dy great V-bomber which I could not see just a few seconds ago.
I was recently flying with my son and drew his attention to conflicting traffic. We had a re-run of the above and he was equally amazed that he had missed what he missed.
I already have a Mode S transponder and await with eager anticipation for the arrival of an affordable TCAS which I use and absolutely love in my day job.
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Excuse my ignorance......................
Presumably TCAS relies on other aircraft being txpdr equipped - and that the txpdr is switched on?
There are approximately 8 regularly flying aircraft in our barn and at the Club I am a member of at least another 60-70. None have transponders. Because they are microlights and 'cheap' to opearte they are regularly flying.
Is there any chance at all that TCAS could make you complacent?
Just a thought
Presumably TCAS relies on other aircraft being txpdr equipped - and that the txpdr is switched on?
There are approximately 8 regularly flying aircraft in our barn and at the Club I am a member of at least another 60-70. None have transponders. Because they are microlights and 'cheap' to opearte they are regularly flying.
Is there any chance at all that TCAS could make you complacent?
Just a thought
In a TCAS equipped aircraft, you are constantly reminded that there ARE other aircraft out there, even when the sky LOOKS clear and used properly, as part of a lookout scan, it keeps your eyes OUTSIDE the cockpit, not inside.
We all know how many aircraft don't squawk (we see lots, often they don't see us or don't know the rules of the air) so TCAS CANNOT be a replacement for lookout and no-one who knows the system and uses it properly would ever believe it is.
Someone I have previously flown with, an ex-military pilot with many years of experience has survived TWO mid-air collisions. One aircraft hit him from behind, one from above, both whilst he was in cruise flight. He had no chance to see either. He told me that TCAS might have prevented both accidents. He is, quite understandably, even more paranoid about lookout than most but TCAS still beats his (class one medical, steely blue) eyes, time after time. The proof for me (class one medical, steely blue eyes) is that not infrequently we have a TCAS target go past within a mile in seemingly quite reasonable visibility and despite our best efforts, neither of us (2 pilot ops) can see it, or see it very late indeed.
My point is, don't decry it, until you've tried it.
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I wasn't decrying TCAS, I was responding to IO540's post where he critisied one sweeping statement and then when on to make another!
TCAS I'm sure is great. I haven't used one but that doesn't mean I can't see it's advantages. However, aircraft like mine simply cannot be fitted with a transponder as they are in present form. I doubt we'll ever have a really practical light version that won't fry my balls or take up a small enough space to be fitted ... let alone a TCAS as well (although I can see they can be quite small). All the time aircraft like mine are allowed to fly (which I pray is for a long time yet) TCAS cannot possibly completely protect you. Surely there could be a better gps based avoidance system designed? Much smaller, better technology, probably cheaper and less likely to iradiate the pilot?
SS
TCAS I'm sure is great. I haven't used one but that doesn't mean I can't see it's advantages. However, aircraft like mine simply cannot be fitted with a transponder as they are in present form. I doubt we'll ever have a really practical light version that won't fry my balls or take up a small enough space to be fitted ... let alone a TCAS as well (although I can see they can be quite small). All the time aircraft like mine are allowed to fly (which I pray is for a long time yet) TCAS cannot possibly completely protect you. Surely there could be a better gps based avoidance system designed? Much smaller, better technology, probably cheaper and less likely to iradiate the pilot?
SS