IFR Avionics - cost
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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From: Maders UK
Glass Panel
IO540
I would assume by your attitude to the glass cockpit that you have logged little time in aircraft with glass panel technology or TCAS.
Please come flying with me and I will be happy to attempt to change your mind about any perceived shortcomings you see with glass panels - including systems integration, systems redundancy, pilot workload (incredibly light) and of course TCAS (which I hope now to never fly without). I would also say that most aircraft appear on the display whether squawking mode A, C or S and that the majority of aircraft in the airspace I venture into are transponder equipped. It is amazing what you miss with the visual scan - the TCAS is a real eye-opener.
Interestingly when I visited the Mooney factory in November 2004 they had plenty of new orders for G1000 equipped A/C and none for A/C with conventional panels.
A retired 747 training captain friend of mine (who trained me to fly the Mooney with the glass panel) predicts that within the next 10 years glass will become the norm in new aircraft.
Having logged 250+ hrs IFR with the G1000 over the last 2 years I can tell you I won't be going back to steam in a hurry.
Don't knock it til you've tried it,
SB
I would assume by your attitude to the glass cockpit that you have logged little time in aircraft with glass panel technology or TCAS.
Please come flying with me and I will be happy to attempt to change your mind about any perceived shortcomings you see with glass panels - including systems integration, systems redundancy, pilot workload (incredibly light) and of course TCAS (which I hope now to never fly without). I would also say that most aircraft appear on the display whether squawking mode A, C or S and that the majority of aircraft in the airspace I venture into are transponder equipped. It is amazing what you miss with the visual scan - the TCAS is a real eye-opener.
Interestingly when I visited the Mooney factory in November 2004 they had plenty of new orders for G1000 equipped A/C and none for A/C with conventional panels.
A retired 747 training captain friend of mine (who trained me to fly the Mooney with the glass panel) predicts that within the next 10 years glass will become the norm in new aircraft.
Having logged 250+ hrs IFR with the G1000 over the last 2 years I can tell you I won't be going back to steam in a hurry.
Don't knock it til you've tried it,
SB
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I like the glass panel's a lot, quite a bit of time now on the G1000 and some on the avidyne before it. Without doubt it will be the future and a welcome one. However I do like my old steam gear, it is comforting and easy to fly IFR.
I have a GNS430, GMA340 Audio Panel, GTX330 Mode S, MX170C Dig Nav Comm, ADF, FS450 fuel computer and a trusty 296 for my fit. The whole Garmin set up cost me £5500 plus VAT. David Jones Airspeed Aviation at Derby does a suberb job.
As far as capability is concerned, I do like the TB20 once you get over the 70's renault feel of it! But there are also plenty of cheaper aircraft out there that will IFR up for your needs. I have a 172XP which has a 18,400ft service ceiling this gets me to FL170 without problems and certainly over the top of the worst weather I am prepared to go near.
I would like an autopilot and am considering options like the STEC tyo interface to the GNS430. I don't mind hand flying but on a leg like La Rochell-Cranfield a couple of weeks ago over 3hrs in the clag makes it difficult to drink my coffee!
But as has been pointed out on here an IR is not a magic carpet that will allow you to fly anytime it just gives you more options.
I have a GNS430, GMA340 Audio Panel, GTX330 Mode S, MX170C Dig Nav Comm, ADF, FS450 fuel computer and a trusty 296 for my fit. The whole Garmin set up cost me £5500 plus VAT. David Jones Airspeed Aviation at Derby does a suberb job.
As far as capability is concerned, I do like the TB20 once you get over the 70's renault feel of it! But there are also plenty of cheaper aircraft out there that will IFR up for your needs. I have a 172XP which has a 18,400ft service ceiling this gets me to FL170 without problems and certainly over the top of the worst weather I am prepared to go near.
I would like an autopilot and am considering options like the STEC tyo interface to the GNS430. I don't mind hand flying but on a leg like La Rochell-Cranfield a couple of weeks ago over 3hrs in the clag makes it difficult to drink my coffee!
But as has been pointed out on here an IR is not a magic carpet that will allow you to fly anytime it just gives you more options.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: London, UK
I thought it was interesting that (AFAIK) the new TBM 850 doesn't use a glass cockpit. Or rather, it does use some moderate-sized electronic displays, but they are independent of one another, rather than a big G1000 type setup.
Also I don't think it'll take ten years for the likes of most certified 4 seaters - I believe the majority of new ones are already being supplied with fully integrated glass cockpits.
I've flown with TCAS extensively in the US and I loved it, but anytime it was busy it tended to be in a Mode C veil area. It amazes me how many "contacts" in the UK are not using transponders.
I've not flown with a G1000. I find an HSI and a decent GPS+MFD makes the basic control and NAV pretty straightforward. I don't doubt that glass cockpits are the way of the future regardless. I like the idea of multiple devices rather than one big black box though. And I don't think it adds to the mission capability of a given aeroplane, though nor do sheepskin seat covers but they're damned comfortable (if rather ugly).
Bose-X, get that AP! I recently moved from a plane without one to one with one and it has made more difference than I thought it would. I am having it upgraded to GPSS as we speak. I'd always assumed it was just a question of the GPS saying "turn left or turn right" but it's more complicated, involving your ground speed, turn anticipation etc. With a suitable GPS it'll fly holds, DME arcs and the rest.
Also I don't think it'll take ten years for the likes of most certified 4 seaters - I believe the majority of new ones are already being supplied with fully integrated glass cockpits.
I've flown with TCAS extensively in the US and I loved it, but anytime it was busy it tended to be in a Mode C veil area. It amazes me how many "contacts" in the UK are not using transponders.
I've not flown with a G1000. I find an HSI and a decent GPS+MFD makes the basic control and NAV pretty straightforward. I don't doubt that glass cockpits are the way of the future regardless. I like the idea of multiple devices rather than one big black box though. And I don't think it adds to the mission capability of a given aeroplane, though nor do sheepskin seat covers but they're damned comfortable (if rather ugly).
Bose-X, get that AP! I recently moved from a plane without one to one with one and it has made more difference than I thought it would. I am having it upgraded to GPSS as we speak. I'd always assumed it was just a question of the GPS saying "turn left or turn right" but it's more complicated, involving your ground speed, turn anticipation etc. With a suitable GPS it'll fly holds, DME arcs and the rest.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
There is no doubt that new planes cannot be even given away without a glass panel or two, but that doesn't mean this is the right time to spend 150k plus buying a plane with a glass cockpit. Of course if your budget is 250k and you are getting an SR22 or similar then you will get one anyway, which is OK.
The TBM850 doesn't use glass because, according to Socata, the autopilot options on the currently popular GA glass (G1000 or Entegra, basically) are not adequate for the aircraft performance. Also, it's evident that Socata play very safe, in terms of both certification issues (the TBM850 is far more similar to the TBM700 than one would expect) and in terms of risking a huge U.S. business on avionics issues. There are loads of reports of these units crashing in mid-flight, and while one can dump that kind of an issue onto the fairly supple low-end-GA community like us, TBM owners who paid 10x more would not wear it, and would be on the phone to their lawyers in no time at all.
At low levels, say below 3000ft, I would be the great majority, perhaps 90%, of GA traffic is non transponding; this makes TCAS of very limited value. At higher levels this changes but then there is very little GA traffic up there anyway. If I was spending 10k or so I would get GPWS or similar; one is far more likely to fly into a hill than into another plane.
I would be a little careful with a 18k flight manual ceiling on a C172. A tiny bit of ice on the prop is going to halve that figure. That's why a de-iced prop is such good value - even if the plane as a whole is not certified for any icing whatsoever.
As I say, if the budget is 250k then it's easy, but I didn't get that impression from the original poster. That's why I am listing all these things. There is more to IFR/airways than screwing in a GNS430; the weather doesn't care whether you have an IR or not and one does need good performance.
The TBM850 doesn't use glass because, according to Socata, the autopilot options on the currently popular GA glass (G1000 or Entegra, basically) are not adequate for the aircraft performance. Also, it's evident that Socata play very safe, in terms of both certification issues (the TBM850 is far more similar to the TBM700 than one would expect) and in terms of risking a huge U.S. business on avionics issues. There are loads of reports of these units crashing in mid-flight, and while one can dump that kind of an issue onto the fairly supple low-end-GA community like us, TBM owners who paid 10x more would not wear it, and would be on the phone to their lawyers in no time at all.
At low levels, say below 3000ft, I would be the great majority, perhaps 90%, of GA traffic is non transponding; this makes TCAS of very limited value. At higher levels this changes but then there is very little GA traffic up there anyway. If I was spending 10k or so I would get GPWS or similar; one is far more likely to fly into a hill than into another plane.
I would be a little careful with a 18k flight manual ceiling on a C172. A tiny bit of ice on the prop is going to halve that figure. That's why a de-iced prop is such good value - even if the plane as a whole is not certified for any icing whatsoever.
As I say, if the budget is 250k then it's easy, but I didn't get that impression from the original poster. That's why I am listing all these things. There is more to IFR/airways than screwing in a GNS430; the weather doesn't care whether you have an IR or not and one does need good performance.
