Changing tanks on the PA 28
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Changing tanks on the PA 28
Hi,
Sorry if this question has been asked before! I'm changing over to the PA28 after flying the C152 and I am unsure on the procedure for changing fuel tanks both on the ground and in the air? Whilst in the air should the fuel pump be switched on prior to and whilst changing the tanks? Also, at what stage after takeoff do you normally turn the fuel pump off? Thanks
Justin
Sorry if this question has been asked before! I'm changing over to the PA28 after flying the C152 and I am unsure on the procedure for changing fuel tanks both on the ground and in the air? Whilst in the air should the fuel pump be switched on prior to and whilst changing the tanks? Also, at what stage after takeoff do you normally turn the fuel pump off? Thanks
Justin
hello and good luck with the PA28
i normally turn off pump at 1000ft, and watch fuel pressure guage to make sure there is no drop. turn pump on again when airfield in sight.
always turn on pump before changing tanks, and again watch pressure guage after turning off.
cheers
CJH
i normally turn off pump at 1000ft, and watch fuel pressure guage to make sure there is no drop. turn pump on again when airfield in sight.
always turn on pump before changing tanks, and again watch pressure guage after turning off.
cheers
CJH
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Justin
On the ground, you can just change over without using the electric fuel pump, BUT never change tanks on the ground after you have finished your power checks, since there is enough fuel in the gascolator (fuel bowl) to get to about 200ft before your engine stops, if you have a problem with the fuel flow form the new tank.
Check the POH for the altitude to switch off the electric fuel pump, IIRC it is not below 300ft, but no harm on leaving on for longer.
In the air, as you suggest, always switch on the electric fuel pump and check that the fuel pressure is in the green, then switch tanks and monitor the fuel prerssure, switch off the pump, monitor the fuel pressure until you are sure all is okay.
On the ground, you can just change over without using the electric fuel pump, BUT never change tanks on the ground after you have finished your power checks, since there is enough fuel in the gascolator (fuel bowl) to get to about 200ft before your engine stops, if you have a problem with the fuel flow form the new tank.
Check the POH for the altitude to switch off the electric fuel pump, IIRC it is not below 300ft, but no harm on leaving on for longer.
In the air, as you suggest, always switch on the electric fuel pump and check that the fuel pressure is in the green, then switch tanks and monitor the fuel prerssure, switch off the pump, monitor the fuel pressure until you are sure all is okay.
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I use pump off for power checks to see the engine won't cut if it isn't used. But as 3greens says, don't change between power checks and take off. I usually leave the pump on until the top of the climb (unless I'm heading quite high!) and off with the top-of-climb check.
Also I wouldn't recommend changing with unnecessary frequency i.e. every FREDA check. I think Piper recommend (on long flights) running one tank for an hour, using the other for 2 hours, then back to the other for another hour.
I may stand to be corrected.
h
Also I wouldn't recommend changing with unnecessary frequency i.e. every FREDA check. I think Piper recommend (on long flights) running one tank for an hour, using the other for 2 hours, then back to the other for another hour.
I may stand to be corrected.
h
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Turn on for starting and then off for taxying until the check list requires it for power checks. The period when the electric pump is off confirms that the engine pump is working.
Generally follow the same rule in the air. Use the electric fuel pump for climbing or descending, changing tanks and always use for approach and landing. I also use it for procedures such as steep turns and stalls. Leaving it off for the rest of the time means that you'll pick up on an engine pump failure immediately.
Turning off the fuel pump at 1000 feet doesn't give you many options if you do have a problem. I tend to leave the pump on until top of climb leaving plenty of options if a problem arises.
The fuel pump should also be one of the first things to consider switching on if the engine starts running rough or there is a loss of power in flight.
Also consider when you should have the fuel pump firmly off, such as engine firm on start or take off.
Have a look at the POH. Probably the emergency and normal procedure sections.
I learnt on a 152 and have flown a PA28 since getting my licence and now own a share in one. They're great and you'll love it.
Generally follow the same rule in the air. Use the electric fuel pump for climbing or descending, changing tanks and always use for approach and landing. I also use it for procedures such as steep turns and stalls. Leaving it off for the rest of the time means that you'll pick up on an engine pump failure immediately.
Turning off the fuel pump at 1000 feet doesn't give you many options if you do have a problem. I tend to leave the pump on until top of climb leaving plenty of options if a problem arises.
The fuel pump should also be one of the first things to consider switching on if the engine starts running rough or there is a loss of power in flight.
Also consider when you should have the fuel pump firmly off, such as engine firm on start or take off.
Have a look at the POH. Probably the emergency and normal procedure sections.
I learnt on a 152 and have flown a PA28 since getting my licence and now own a share in one. They're great and you'll love it.
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Despite my 'nom de plume' I did my PPL on PA28s (Warriors and Archers).
Haven't flown one in a long time, but remember what my instructor drilled into me about changing tanks:
Visualize the fuel selector as the face of your wristwatch and set the fuel to wherever the minute hand is. In other words, change tank every 30 mins or so. This way you can never run one tank dry and have fuel in the other one. Also eliminates uncertainties of the 'when did I last switch tanks' type. Of course assumes you are wearing an analogue watch....
Other than that I'll second the comments above re not switching tanks after runup.
Haven't flown one in a long time, but remember what my instructor drilled into me about changing tanks:
Visualize the fuel selector as the face of your wristwatch and set the fuel to wherever the minute hand is. In other words, change tank every 30 mins or so. This way you can never run one tank dry and have fuel in the other one. Also eliminates uncertainties of the 'when did I last switch tanks' type. Of course assumes you are wearing an analogue watch....
Other than that I'll second the comments above re not switching tanks after runup.
Last edited by 172driver; 2nd Aug 2006 at 08:53. Reason: clarity
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F3G
A new one for me, and makes perfect sense. One I shall now remember going forwards and make a note of on my check list. Not that I've been in the habit of changing tanks at such a late stage.
Yet another gem of information from the forums of PPRuNe.
On the ground, you can just change over without using the electric fuel pump, BUT never change tanks on the ground after you have finished your power checks, since there is enough fuel in the gascolator (fuel bowl) to get to about 200ft before your engine stops, if you have a problem with the fuel flow form the new tank.
Yet another gem of information from the forums of PPRuNe.
As an engineer, I sometimes shut the engine down by using the fuel selector instead of the mixture control. On a couple of occasions this has revealed a faulty valve. Two reasons: obviously vital in the event of an engine fire or forced landing after engine failure and secondly, saves flooding the hangar floor when removing the fuel filter!
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Thanks for your comments - I saw this happen many years ago, although fortunately the PA28 managed a perfectly good forced landing straight ahead and was later flown out of the farmers field following an engineering check. It was horrifying to hear the crash alarm go off and see the fire service reacting with blues and twos.
Just another thought on how often one should change tanks.... In the states a PA28 driver had loads of fuel on the left and decided to drain the right tank (I can't remember the reasons why.)
Unfortunately, when he went to change tanks, the selector knob came off in his hand
Immediate forced landing required and made safely, but it does make you think about whether you have enough fuel, in the tank in use, to make an approach and landing at your nearest option.
Thanks for your comments - I saw this happen many years ago, although fortunately the PA28 managed a perfectly good forced landing straight ahead and was later flown out of the farmers field following an engineering check. It was horrifying to hear the crash alarm go off and see the fire service reacting with blues and twos.
Just another thought on how often one should change tanks.... In the states a PA28 driver had loads of fuel on the left and decided to drain the right tank (I can't remember the reasons why.)
Unfortunately, when he went to change tanks, the selector knob came off in his hand
Immediate forced landing required and made safely, but it does make you think about whether you have enough fuel, in the tank in use, to make an approach and landing at your nearest option.
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Hello, the checklist i follow states:
Start Up & Taxi: Tank with lowest contents.
Prior to Power Checks: Fullest tank
Fuel Pump on after power checks, during pre-take off vital actions.
Fuel pump off above 1000'
Fuel pump on for tank changes (i teach every 1/2 hour at least on a long nav ex)
Fuel Pump on below 1000'
Hope this helps
Start Up & Taxi: Tank with lowest contents.
Prior to Power Checks: Fullest tank
Fuel Pump on after power checks, during pre-take off vital actions.
Fuel pump off above 1000'
Fuel pump on for tank changes (i teach every 1/2 hour at least on a long nav ex)
Fuel Pump on below 1000'
Hope this helps
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Originally Posted by Paris Dakar
When I converted from 150/152 to PA28's I took one of those mechanical (wind-up) kitchen timers with me, and set it to go off after 30mins so I wouldn't forget to change the tanks.
PD
PD
I think my wristwatch method is slightly easier !
Why not check the Flight Manual/POH
Lots of good and well intentioned advice here but I am disappointed to note that nobody has made any reference to what is specified in the relevant Flight Manual/Pilot's Operating Handbook which is part of the C of A for the aircraft - surely this definitive docuement should be the first port of call when there is doubt concerning the operation of the aircraft and it's systems rather than relying on "hearsay".
Interestingly the PA28 Flight Manual I have specifies leaving the electric fuel pump on (after take off) until levelling out at the first cruise level.
Interestingly the PA28 Flight Manual I have specifies leaving the electric fuel pump on (after take off) until levelling out at the first cruise level.
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Be careful with just quoting a 1000 feet. What you mean is a 1000 feet above a surface suitable for a re- landing/alightment. That may not coincide with the 1000 feet on your altimeter ! Take a 1000 feet AGL/AMSL as a minimum-you may want to extend that depending on your experience and the terrain/water you are flying over. For instance if I was taking off over ground with a very marginal chance of a re-land I would be keeping that pump on for a much longer time.
In a single engined aircraft you need to be even more respectful of the fuel and the fuel systym.
1. Are you sure of the integrity of the source of the fuel?
2. Are you sure the fuel is not contaminated in the tanks(I would never fly a s.e. a/c without checking a fuel sample myself and on occasions when i do not like the look of the bowser eg The Arthur Shagnasty bought on Ebay bowser, I would check again after settlement)
3. Proove the integrity of the electric pump BEFORE start, remember thats the best place to initially check it--turn the pump on, listen and watch that FP gauge.
4. Check each tank delivers fuel to the engine, a momentarily change wont proove it, you need to clear the fuel in the line from the original selected tank first.#
I would advise you not to rely on a checklist to tell you to do critical items (as suggested in other posts) With single pilot operations and critical simple actions, a checklist should be the second check that you have done the action. At the holding point you should complete the critical memory items that will minimise an incident at what is the most critical point in the flight, the take off and initial climb out--that would also of course include a simple self brief of what you are going to do if the engine stops at 50 - 500 feet, sadly never considered by most light a/c pilots.
This critical point means on the PA28 you now want to prove the integrity of the remaining tank and as this is the tank you are pinning your pension on-- BE SURE. as someone has already said get it on before the run up, give it chance to be exclusively feeding the engine.
I personally would start the engine on the tank already selected(not having moved the selector) if it starts and runs on this tank i know its ok-then change tanks and taxy, i want to spend the longest time on the tank i am pinning the pension on--get my meaning!
I remember a case many years ago where a smart arse jumped in and didnt select the fuel on he went straight out and he managed to get airborne to about 100 feet before the engine stopped. It was his own strip you see--no delay and coupled with the fact he was a cowboy, an accident waiting to happen. my point being there is quite a bit of fuel in the line between tank an engine
There are all sorts of combination for balancing tanks in the air. What you want to consider before changing tanks on a single is where you are. Would you for instance consider it better airmanship to clear the city you are crossing before changing tanks or get to the land before changing tanks on a sea crossing-- this is where learning to fly by numbers dosnt work. Knowing why you need to do things and what you are trying to achieve makes for a better pilot. The classic example is the circuit, what most instructors teach is climb straight ahead to 500 feet after take off now thats learning to fly by numbers because if the engine stops a couple of years later down the line at 500 ft and you lower the nose to find the Nelson Mandella council estate you will remember what I said. " For take off in a SE a/c select the path that will give you the safest re-landing path/area in the event a serious engine malfunction."
Consider that turning the fuel pump off may well stop the engine immeadiately so again dont just fly by numbers ask yourself in regard to terrain and making a safe forced landing is this the best place/altitude to stop the engine!
When running tanks towards empty alway try and manage the last tank so that enough will remain for say at least 15/20 mins flight, because if you ever get caught out, say the weather is bad or you have got lost or something has happened to divert your attention away from normal operations you may find that you forget other normal routines such as changing tanks etc, imagine running out of fuel on finals and you change tanks to find the other one is empty too.
So base your mangagement on leaving a reserve in one tank, with regular balancing to achieve this--the balance isnt critical, keeping the engine running is!
Safe flying
In a single engined aircraft you need to be even more respectful of the fuel and the fuel systym.
1. Are you sure of the integrity of the source of the fuel?
2. Are you sure the fuel is not contaminated in the tanks(I would never fly a s.e. a/c without checking a fuel sample myself and on occasions when i do not like the look of the bowser eg The Arthur Shagnasty bought on Ebay bowser, I would check again after settlement)
3. Proove the integrity of the electric pump BEFORE start, remember thats the best place to initially check it--turn the pump on, listen and watch that FP gauge.
4. Check each tank delivers fuel to the engine, a momentarily change wont proove it, you need to clear the fuel in the line from the original selected tank first.#
I would advise you not to rely on a checklist to tell you to do critical items (as suggested in other posts) With single pilot operations and critical simple actions, a checklist should be the second check that you have done the action. At the holding point you should complete the critical memory items that will minimise an incident at what is the most critical point in the flight, the take off and initial climb out--that would also of course include a simple self brief of what you are going to do if the engine stops at 50 - 500 feet, sadly never considered by most light a/c pilots.
This critical point means on the PA28 you now want to prove the integrity of the remaining tank and as this is the tank you are pinning your pension on-- BE SURE. as someone has already said get it on before the run up, give it chance to be exclusively feeding the engine.
I personally would start the engine on the tank already selected(not having moved the selector) if it starts and runs on this tank i know its ok-then change tanks and taxy, i want to spend the longest time on the tank i am pinning the pension on--get my meaning!
I remember a case many years ago where a smart arse jumped in and didnt select the fuel on he went straight out and he managed to get airborne to about 100 feet before the engine stopped. It was his own strip you see--no delay and coupled with the fact he was a cowboy, an accident waiting to happen. my point being there is quite a bit of fuel in the line between tank an engine
There are all sorts of combination for balancing tanks in the air. What you want to consider before changing tanks on a single is where you are. Would you for instance consider it better airmanship to clear the city you are crossing before changing tanks or get to the land before changing tanks on a sea crossing-- this is where learning to fly by numbers dosnt work. Knowing why you need to do things and what you are trying to achieve makes for a better pilot. The classic example is the circuit, what most instructors teach is climb straight ahead to 500 feet after take off now thats learning to fly by numbers because if the engine stops a couple of years later down the line at 500 ft and you lower the nose to find the Nelson Mandella council estate you will remember what I said. " For take off in a SE a/c select the path that will give you the safest re-landing path/area in the event a serious engine malfunction."
Consider that turning the fuel pump off may well stop the engine immeadiately so again dont just fly by numbers ask yourself in regard to terrain and making a safe forced landing is this the best place/altitude to stop the engine!
When running tanks towards empty alway try and manage the last tank so that enough will remain for say at least 15/20 mins flight, because if you ever get caught out, say the weather is bad or you have got lost or something has happened to divert your attention away from normal operations you may find that you forget other normal routines such as changing tanks etc, imagine running out of fuel on finals and you change tanks to find the other one is empty too.
So base your mangagement on leaving a reserve in one tank, with regular balancing to achieve this--the balance isnt critical, keeping the engine running is!
Safe flying
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Firefly Bob has just made a very good point here, always go to the makers manual note i said MAKERS, not the Hemaroid School of Flying interpretation of the manual, as I think some are quoting here.
Its a bit like the advice you get on here, its opinion and more worringly you have no idea of the experience,ego or calibre of the person giving it and yes that includes me!
Its a bit like the advice you get on here, its opinion and more worringly you have no idea of the experience,ego or calibre of the person giving it and yes that includes me!
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Personally, I always have the pump on when changing tanks. And I keep a brief eye on on the presures while doing so.
I also make sure that both tanks have been used while on the ground both with & without the pump.
As for when to change tanks: If I'm flying over the sea, I set the engine up just before the coast & leave it as much as poss. This means that I don't change tanks. Another time I never change tanks is from the approach phase to an airfield till I'm parked. But I'll quite happily change whenever I remember my FREDA's.
And I'll take a bit of a tip from theresalwaysone. I've never really considered what's underneath me when I change & where I can park if the cooling fan stops.
I also make sure that both tanks have been used while on the ground both with & without the pump.
As for when to change tanks: If I'm flying over the sea, I set the engine up just before the coast & leave it as much as poss. This means that I don't change tanks. Another time I never change tanks is from the approach phase to an airfield till I'm parked. But I'll quite happily change whenever I remember my FREDA's.
And I'll take a bit of a tip from theresalwaysone. I've never really considered what's underneath me when I change & where I can park if the cooling fan stops.
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Had a useful tip from our CFI for changing tanks (once in the cruise and taking into account crossing water, built up areas etc)
Use the minute hand of your watch - if it points to the left (i.e. between 31 minutes and 60 minutes - use the left tank and if it points to the right (1 minute to 30 minutes) use the right tank.
Means you will regularly cycle between left and right every half hour or so.
Personally I always turn on the fuel pump before changing tanks and then off again whilst checking the fuel pressure.
As has been said above NEVER change tanks after power checks until you are confident you can glide to an acceptable landing site. I usually come "off pump" when leaving the circuit, and "pump on" when rejoining.
Use the minute hand of your watch - if it points to the left (i.e. between 31 minutes and 60 minutes - use the left tank and if it points to the right (1 minute to 30 minutes) use the right tank.
Means you will regularly cycle between left and right every half hour or so.
Personally I always turn on the fuel pump before changing tanks and then off again whilst checking the fuel pressure.
As has been said above NEVER change tanks after power checks until you are confident you can glide to an acceptable landing site. I usually come "off pump" when leaving the circuit, and "pump on" when rejoining.
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Firefly Bob has just made a very good point here, always go to the makers manual note i said MAKERS, not the Hemaroid School of Flying interpretation of the manual, as I think some are quoting here.
Be very careful. Some flying schools who operate PA28s have CAA approved in house manuals and checklists, which are part of the C of A.
Be very careful. Some flying schools who operate PA28s have CAA approved in house manuals and checklists, which are part of the C of A.
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Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
Firefly Bob has just made a very good point here, always go to the makers manual note i said MAKERS, not the Hemaroid School of Flying interpretation of the manual, as I think some are quoting here.
Be very careful. Some flying schools who operate PA28s have CAA approved in house manuals and checklists, which are part of the C of A.
Be very careful. Some flying schools who operate PA28s have CAA approved in house manuals and checklists, which are part of the C of A.
This is sound advice. The POH recommendations on my Archer 2 are as follows:
In start up phase use electric pump to pressurise the fuel system, then switch it off and prime the engine
After taxi but before power checks change tanks, this should ensure that both tanks get checked on the ground as well as the fuel cock.
Fuel pump on for take off and off not below 1000ft AGL or when settled in the cruise. If climbing high you might want to switch off in the climb because the pump is not designed for continuous use, it's an auxiliary back up pump. Obviously check fuel pressure before and after, there shouldn't be a significant drop in pressure.
I change tanks every half hour or at the half way point of a trip if it's an hour or less. If going over water I try to time things so I change tanks just before coasting out and then leave it until coasting in. Fuel pump on before change and off after with a pressure check each time.
If you are a regular PA28 pilot (or PA32 for that matter) it soon becomes second nature.
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Originally Posted by fireflybob
Lots of good and well intentioned advice here but I am disappointed to note that nobody has made any reference to what is specified in the relevant Flight Manual/Pilot's Operating Handbook which is part of the C of A for the aircraft -
I agree about checklists - they tend to be the owners interpretation of the POH and should be followed with care. The key thing is to think about what you're doing, rather than doing it because an instructor told you. I re-thought the "fuel pump off at 100ft" after a friend in a Seneca switched them off at 1000ft only to lose an engine - and he had an instructor with him.
I guess the moral of the story is to make your instructor earn their money. Think about why you're doing things and question the instructor - if he knows his stuff he'll be happy to explain.