Noob Q: PPL Costs
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Noob Q: PPL Costs
Folks,
Brand new and eager to learn here, just sizing up my JAR PPL and talking to the local fying school to work out some costs. I was expecting to be expensive (I live in North London) but thought i'd just run these past you experts and see if these were the industry standard. Thanks in advance!
JAR-PPL course (inc. VAT) @ £6920.75
Class 2 Medical @ £215
school membership @ £199 pa
Landing fees (55 hours @ 11.75 each) £646.25
Fuel / Insurance (55 hours @ 4.13 per hour) £227.15
Insurance Waiver @ £141
Flight Test fee (£164.50 x 2.5) £410
Skill Test fee £176.25
Total : £8935.40
Regards
Flieg.
Brand new and eager to learn here, just sizing up my JAR PPL and talking to the local fying school to work out some costs. I was expecting to be expensive (I live in North London) but thought i'd just run these past you experts and see if these were the industry standard. Thanks in advance!
JAR-PPL course (inc. VAT) @ £6920.75
Class 2 Medical @ £215
school membership @ £199 pa
Landing fees (55 hours @ 11.75 each) £646.25
Fuel / Insurance (55 hours @ 4.13 per hour) £227.15
Insurance Waiver @ £141
Flight Test fee (£164.50 x 2.5) £410
Skill Test fee £176.25
Total : £8935.40
Regards
Flieg.
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My JAA PPL last year.
Course £2795.00
Insurance $100
VISA £65
TSA $100
SEEVIS $130
Flight to Florida £745
License issue £259
Cheap as chips
Tin hat on
Course £2795.00
Insurance $100
VISA £65
TSA $100
SEEVIS $130
Flight to Florida £745
License issue £259
Cheap as chips
Tin hat on
Hovering AND talking
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Looks about right for the UK. The Medical looks a bit steep - I would have thought £120 ish was nearer the mark however, there are books for studying which you will want to buy plus other equipment; it mounts up.
I would have thought Skills test and flight test were the same thing but the cost of the written exams has not been included or the cost of licence issue.
Not sure about fuel either - isn't that normally included in the hourly rate?
Cheers
Whirls
I would have thought Skills test and flight test were the same thing but the cost of the written exams has not been included or the cost of licence issue.
Not sure about fuel either - isn't that normally included in the hourly rate?
Cheers
Whirls
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You've doubled up a few costs there.
You shouldn't be paying for fuel, you are hiring the a/c wet, that includes all costs except landing usually. Unless they are pulling the stunt about fuel surcharges.
The insurance waiver looks a little steep. Most charge around £25-50 for a waiver.
What a/c are you using? I assume you are taking an average figure of 55 hours to complete the course, rather than the bare minimum of 45. If it is only 45, then you are paying over £150/hr which for something like a Cessna is well over the odds. £125 incl. the FI is about normal.
£199 for an annual membership seems steep aswell, but what do I know, since we charge £100/pa inclding your insurance waiver.
Landing fees seem a little expensive and budget on doing a few more than just one per hour, when it comes to circuits, you'll find the bill goes up steeply for an hour. 5-6 landings is usual in a session.
Does your course include all the books and equipment?
You shouldn't be paying for fuel, you are hiring the a/c wet, that includes all costs except landing usually. Unless they are pulling the stunt about fuel surcharges.
The insurance waiver looks a little steep. Most charge around £25-50 for a waiver.
What a/c are you using? I assume you are taking an average figure of 55 hours to complete the course, rather than the bare minimum of 45. If it is only 45, then you are paying over £150/hr which for something like a Cessna is well over the odds. £125 incl. the FI is about normal.
£199 for an annual membership seems steep aswell, but what do I know, since we charge £100/pa inclding your insurance waiver.
Landing fees seem a little expensive and budget on doing a few more than just one per hour, when it comes to circuits, you'll find the bill goes up steeply for an hour. 5-6 landings is usual in a session.
Does your course include all the books and equipment?
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Not sure that some of these replies are all that helpful.
Some schools charge a fuel surcharge these days and I don't think it automatically means you're being ripped off. The point is the only thing that matters in this regard is the total you pay per hour. In North London 150 per hour is not "well over the odds". Cabair charge £164.50 per hour in a four seater PLUS a fuel surcharge.
Club fees, insurance waiver and medical might be right or wrong, but a hundred quid or so each way on each one is going to make almost no difference at all to the total in the greater scheme of things. Similarly, books and equipment, unless you're going to buy a GPS and a Bose-X headset.
If your learning at Elstree (given your North London base) and you want to pay less per hour then try Firecrest rather than Cabair. The "club" and the aeroplanes might feel more rough and ready but they'll be cheaper.
Cabair also charge landing fees, despite based aircraft not actually being charged landing fees at Elstree. If pushed they will probably say they are "handling fees". Point is, you can't avoid them so you might as well slap them on too. Anywhere else you fly to will almost certainly charge one too, figure on £12 avergage. You'll probably do about 100 landings in total (say 14 hours of circuits at 5 per hour, plus 30 more).
Alternatively, look at going to the US and budget say 5 hours with a UK instructor when you get back. You'll get wildly different opinions on this but the bottom line is that it is an option, with pros and cons.
Some schools charge a fuel surcharge these days and I don't think it automatically means you're being ripped off. The point is the only thing that matters in this regard is the total you pay per hour. In North London 150 per hour is not "well over the odds". Cabair charge £164.50 per hour in a four seater PLUS a fuel surcharge.
Club fees, insurance waiver and medical might be right or wrong, but a hundred quid or so each way on each one is going to make almost no difference at all to the total in the greater scheme of things. Similarly, books and equipment, unless you're going to buy a GPS and a Bose-X headset.
If your learning at Elstree (given your North London base) and you want to pay less per hour then try Firecrest rather than Cabair. The "club" and the aeroplanes might feel more rough and ready but they'll be cheaper.
Cabair also charge landing fees, despite based aircraft not actually being charged landing fees at Elstree. If pushed they will probably say they are "handling fees". Point is, you can't avoid them so you might as well slap them on too. Anywhere else you fly to will almost certainly charge one too, figure on £12 avergage. You'll probably do about 100 landings in total (say 14 hours of circuits at 5 per hour, plus 30 more).
Alternatively, look at going to the US and budget say 5 hours with a UK instructor when you get back. You'll get wildly different opinions on this but the bottom line is that it is an option, with pros and cons.
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That price is totally ludicrous, even for this country !!! I did mine last year for around £6,500 including all my equipment, headsets, books etc. You're paying at least an extra £1,000 pounds over the odds with landing fees and all that insurance. £215 for a Class 2 medical - don't make me laugh. And £199 membership...are you joining a country club ???
There are a lot more reasonably-priced clubs near London.
As a matter of interest, where were you planning to learn ?
There are a lot more reasonably-priced clubs near London.
As a matter of interest, where were you planning to learn ?
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drauk,
With all due respect I think that these prices are over the odds, even for London. I would want to know if I'm being over charged as someone new to this industry.
A fuel surchage is a waste of time, prices for avgas have gone up massively, so why not just put up the hourly rate, rather than trying to hide the increase, whilst charging people more anyway? An open pricing system is far better for all. If the price ever goes down, then reduce the rate, don't muck about with surcharges.
£200 a year for club "membership" is also far too expensive and totally unnecessary.
£150/hr for a 2 seat trainer is very much "over the odds" no matter where you are, unless that machine happens to be an extra or some other specialist machine.
Unless Fliegel is 16 stone+ then most 2 seaters should be fine, why go to the added expense of training in a 4 seater? So in that case £150+/hr is very, very expensive. Whilst I now fly in Scotland, I taught for a number of years just a stones throw from the M25 so the pricing structure isn't completely alien to me.
Flying isn't a cheap hobby or profession, but you don't need to rip people off. I know, we run a club where the ethos is to provide reasonably priced machines in good nick and guess what? We are busier than we can really handle. So over pricing is neither good for the customer or long term for the business itself.
With all due respect I think that these prices are over the odds, even for London. I would want to know if I'm being over charged as someone new to this industry.
A fuel surchage is a waste of time, prices for avgas have gone up massively, so why not just put up the hourly rate, rather than trying to hide the increase, whilst charging people more anyway? An open pricing system is far better for all. If the price ever goes down, then reduce the rate, don't muck about with surcharges.
£200 a year for club "membership" is also far too expensive and totally unnecessary.
£150/hr for a 2 seat trainer is very much "over the odds" no matter where you are, unless that machine happens to be an extra or some other specialist machine.
Unless Fliegel is 16 stone+ then most 2 seaters should be fine, why go to the added expense of training in a 4 seater? So in that case £150+/hr is very, very expensive. Whilst I now fly in Scotland, I taught for a number of years just a stones throw from the M25 so the pricing structure isn't completely alien to me.
Flying isn't a cheap hobby or profession, but you don't need to rip people off. I know, we run a club where the ethos is to provide reasonably priced machines in good nick and guess what? We are busier than we can really handle. So over pricing is neither good for the customer or long term for the business itself.
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That seems a bit much mine wont cost over £6000 as i paid in advance club membership includes landing fees and only costs £50(junior) £120 for medical and all books and exams are in the price included
David
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SayAgainSlowly, I only quoted two specific figures, the price of a four seater with instructor at Cabair and an average landing fee. The Cabair price is straight off their website and doesn't include their fuel surcharge. Their price for a 2 seater is £141. Those are the facts (see http://www.cabairflyingschools.com/selfflyhire.htm). I'd imagine that Cabair are the largest school in the country, so they might be the most expensive but I don't see how one can thus say that 150 is way over the odds. Elsewhere is cheaper and pointing the original poster to those places might be more useful.
I agree that a fuel surcharge is silly - it should be included in the wet rental price, but adding a surcharge is what some clubs do, so again, it's a fact of the matter.
Glad to hear your own club is really busy.
I agree that a fuel surcharge is silly - it should be included in the wet rental price, but adding a surcharge is what some clubs do, so again, it's a fact of the matter.
Glad to hear your own club is really busy.
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it's worth shopping around to compare costs.... then you need to decide if the travel costs are worth it. My local training school is Northumbria at Newcastle airport charging approx £7k, however if I travel to Teeside it's just over £5k. Breakdown of teeside costs->http://www.clevelandflying.co.uk/pplinfosean.htm
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Consider the fact that we put out a 152 or tomahawk at £123.45 including landing, FI etc., then £141 is well over the odds. Add to this the very high other costs, then again this is over charging to me.
Hopefully by highlighting this over charging, then Fliegel will be able see that he is paying too much, which is exactly the question he/she asked, so I fail to see how this is "less than helpful."
Thanks for the comment about our club, it's going well which is great to see. It's really proved to me that if you give people a good service without ripping them off, then you'll be busy.
Hopefully by highlighting this over charging, then Fliegel will be able see that he is paying too much, which is exactly the question he/she asked, so I fail to see how this is "less than helpful."
Thanks for the comment about our club, it's going well which is great to see. It's really proved to me that if you give people a good service without ripping them off, then you'll be busy.
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I didn't say it was "less than helpful".
You don't seem to be getting what I'm saying that the price charged by the most popular school in the country is probably not usefully described as over the odds. It's at the top of the price range, but terms like "rip off" and "over the odds" imply some level of impropriety which I don't think exists.
You don't seem to be getting what I'm saying that the price charged by the most popular school in the country is probably not usefully described as over the odds. It's at the top of the price range, but terms like "rip off" and "over the odds" imply some level of impropriety which I don't think exists.
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Charging more than the competition for no real reason, is a "rip off".
In the same way that charging £2.00 for a can of coke is a rip off. It is unnecessary and I don't like to see new people coming into GA being taken advantage of because of their inexperience.
I have no idea where this school is or what it is called, all I know is that the prices mentioned seem to be high to me, given a certain set of circumstances. For instance it hasn't been made clear what the actual rate is, since the figures could be for 45 OR 55 hours, that isn't clear. If the breakdown gives a figure of £125/hr, then this is reasonable, BUT £155/hr when the average is closer to 125 is very expensive.
Charging landing fee's when the airfield itself doesn't actually charge them is definately a "rip off" in my book.
In the same way that charging £2.00 for a can of coke is a rip off. It is unnecessary and I don't like to see new people coming into GA being taken advantage of because of their inexperience.
I have no idea where this school is or what it is called, all I know is that the prices mentioned seem to be high to me, given a certain set of circumstances. For instance it hasn't been made clear what the actual rate is, since the figures could be for 45 OR 55 hours, that isn't clear. If the breakdown gives a figure of £125/hr, then this is reasonable, BUT £155/hr when the average is closer to 125 is very expensive.
Charging landing fee's when the airfield itself doesn't actually charge them is definately a "rip off" in my book.
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PPL training!
£9 K !
You should be speaking to other flying schools and other PPl's/ students, should be easily achievable for £6-7 K in the UK even on a very part time basis.
You can save yourself money by being ready for each lesson, know your aircraft, learn your checks, pass your exams sooner rather than later!
enjoy.........
You should be speaking to other flying schools and other PPl's/ students, should be easily achievable for £6-7 K in the UK even on a very part time basis.
You can save yourself money by being ready for each lesson, know your aircraft, learn your checks, pass your exams sooner rather than later!
enjoy.........
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Folks,
Thanks very much for that, I did think it was a tad high so I will do some shopping around. The company that quoted me this was cabair by the way, they are the largest as stated so maybe you pay for the corporate professionalism aspect - nothing wrong with that but I was hoping for something a bit more informal and friendly (as informal and friendly as tutelage can get!) and if its cheaper two thumbs up.
I am going to do some shopping around, visit Denham and Pannshangar (?) which are the two closest to me and get some face to face going. Very glad to find a source of information and help on these forums,
all your replies are much appreciated.
Fliegel.
Thanks very much for that, I did think it was a tad high so I will do some shopping around. The company that quoted me this was cabair by the way, they are the largest as stated so maybe you pay for the corporate professionalism aspect - nothing wrong with that but I was hoping for something a bit more informal and friendly (as informal and friendly as tutelage can get!) and if its cheaper two thumbs up.
I am going to do some shopping around, visit Denham and Pannshangar (?) which are the two closest to me and get some face to face going. Very glad to find a source of information and help on these forums,
all your replies are much appreciated.
Fliegel.
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Go to the US, mate, you'll pay less and learn more (night rating), then convert to JAA/CAA, or, indeed, just keep flying day VFR on your FAA license here.
Tin hat on, awaiting incoming......
PS: from what I hear, you'll shortly be able to do the JAA/CAA PPL in Spain in English. Probably not as cheap as the US, but closer to home and a JAR license from day one (although you would't get the night rating thrown in).
Tin hat on, awaiting incoming......
PS: from what I hear, you'll shortly be able to do the JAA/CAA PPL in Spain in English. Probably not as cheap as the US, but closer to home and a JAR license from day one (although you would't get the night rating thrown in).
Blah Blah Blah
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Why not go to the US and do a JAA course??
It is easier to do the JAA course then get an FAA license based on your JAA license.
Thats what i done.
Mind you if you dont plan to do any flying in the US then why bother with the FAA license.
It is easier to do the JAA course then get an FAA license based on your JAA license.
Thats what i done.
Mind you if you dont plan to do any flying in the US then why bother with the FAA license.
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Originally Posted by 172driver
PS: from what I hear, you'll shortly be able to do the JAA/CAA PPL in Spain in English. Probably not as cheap as the US, but closer to home and a JAR license from day one (although you would't get the night rating thrown in).
www.fly-in-spain.com