Noob Q: PPL Costs
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£8K JAA PPL !!!!!!!!!!!
Have you thought of a 3-Axis microlight on a NPPL?
My doctor signed my form for free, lessons (and you only need 25) were £85ph including landing and fuel (if I had my own plane at the time they would have been less that £50).
Did the whole lot 20min from my home for about £2.5k
I know this brings up the ‘A’ types v microlight argument. But as a modern microlight can fly at 160kt and have nearly 1000 mile range, the gap is closing fast.
Instead of hiring a Cessna and only affording to do a few hours a year, a 3-Axis microlight (like a Thruster) can be picked up for less than £4K, keep it at home on a trailer, maintain it yourself, and run it on unleaded.
Last Sunday I few a return trip with a pal from Deanland to Sandown for lunch. Total cost for the pair of us including lunch, landing fees etc… £40.
Last month I flew 2,500 miles in my Rans, and I’m planning a tip to Africa next year, I personally could not afford to do that in a GA type.
Good luck in whatever you do, it all flying to me
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
Have you thought of a 3-Axis microlight on a NPPL?
My doctor signed my form for free, lessons (and you only need 25) were £85ph including landing and fuel (if I had my own plane at the time they would have been less that £50).
Did the whole lot 20min from my home for about £2.5k
I know this brings up the ‘A’ types v microlight argument. But as a modern microlight can fly at 160kt and have nearly 1000 mile range, the gap is closing fast.
Instead of hiring a Cessna and only affording to do a few hours a year, a 3-Axis microlight (like a Thruster) can be picked up for less than £4K, keep it at home on a trailer, maintain it yourself, and run it on unleaded.
Last Sunday I few a return trip with a pal from Deanland to Sandown for lunch. Total cost for the pair of us including lunch, landing fees etc… £40.
Last month I flew 2,500 miles in my Rans, and I’m planning a tip to Africa next year, I personally could not afford to do that in a GA type.
Good luck in whatever you do, it all flying to me
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
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Yesterday got my PPL posted from London
Interesting to know, however, as I was under the impression that they were still working their way through the paper jungle to get this done. Out of interest - how much did it cost ya ?
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Originally Posted by Rans Flyer
£8K JAA PPL !!!!!!!!!!!
Have you thought of a 3-Axis microlight on a NPPL?
My doctor signed my form for free, lessons (and you only need 25) were £85ph including landing and fuel (if I had my own plane at the time they would have been less that £50).
.......
Last month I flew 2,500 miles in my Rans, and I’m planning a tip to Africa next year, I personally could not afford to do that in a GA type.
Good luck in whatever you do, it all flying to me
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
Have you thought of a 3-Axis microlight on a NPPL?
My doctor signed my form for free, lessons (and you only need 25) were £85ph including landing and fuel (if I had my own plane at the time they would have been less that £50).
.......
Last month I flew 2,500 miles in my Rans, and I’m planning a tip to Africa next year, I personally could not afford to do that in a GA type.
Good luck in whatever you do, it all flying to me
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
The general thrust of the argument is very strong though - I am seriously considering "downgrading" to a NNPL next year when my JAR comes up for its 5 year renewal. being over 50 I need a full ECG at every class 2 medical (at the thick end of £170) The NPPL starts to look very enticing - it is just the limitation to the UK that is holding me back.
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I’ve haven’t got the rules in front of me, but I believe that as long as you have prior permission from the state that you intend to fly to then your ok, (the same as flying an aircraft on a permit).
Rumours are that the NPPL will be a European licence soon, a bit like the Sports licence in the US.
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
Rumours are that the NPPL will be a European licence soon, a bit like the Sports licence in the US.
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
Fixed+Rotary (aircraft, not washing lines)
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Just did a quick tot up of my 18 month adventure and it came in just shy of £7k and that was for 52hrs (including test), all books, medicals, kit, licence application, exams, landing fees, headphones...
In a 4 seater PA28.
So, £9k does seem a little steep and I retract my earlier comment* - which was based on the original £8.9k quote. It does sound rather expensive.
*I probably had my rotary head on - now that *is* a real way to get rid of money quickly
In a 4 seater PA28.
So, £9k does seem a little steep and I retract my earlier comment* - which was based on the original £8.9k quote. It does sound rather expensive.
*I probably had my rotary head on - now that *is* a real way to get rid of money quickly
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Don't bank on the NPPL being European anytime soon, certainly not before EASA takes over FCL completely and that is probably 2 years away.
The NPPL is currently a dead end, suitable for pilots who can't get the CAA Class 2 medical.
The NPPL is currently a dead end, suitable for pilots who can't get the CAA Class 2 medical.
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Originally Posted by 172driver
Well, first of all, acuba 290: well done, congrats to your license
Interesting to know, however, as I was under the impression that they were still working their way through the paper jungle to get this done. Out of interest - how much did it cost ya ?
Interesting to know, however, as I was under the impression that they were still working their way through the paper jungle to get this done. Out of interest - how much did it cost ya ?
In my case everything: books, exams, flight to Jerez, livinging and food in Jerez,rented car in Jerez, all flights (almost 50 Hour's, because after exam i also wanted to try out P-28),landing fees etc., all together: about 7500 GBP
btw. i've got very very small flat with ONLY 3 floors and 4 rooms, 2 toilets etc. ONLY for me alone
. I'm sure it was just occasion
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Welcome the wonderful world of light aviation, and your first lesson. Beware those that look at you as a cash cow!!
Yes this is an very expensive hobby, I once heard it described as more addictive than heroin and twice as expensive!! However, the medical seems very steep. Have a look at the CAA web site, they have a list of all AME's there and call 3 or 4 and find out what they cahrge, expect around 100 - 150 max.
Landings. Sadly as already stated, there are more than one per hour. My first solo cost me £80 in landing fees alone. (£10 per go). USA- yes you can do a JAA licence and the price is lower, but then so is the standard. A lot (Note not all) of the FTO's out there operate a factory production line of students, and you will return with your licence for half the price over here. At least one CFI told me that he would want anyone coming back from the states to have another 10 hours to get them used to flying in our more congested skies. This might be a little over the top, but expect at least another 5 hours tuition before anyone lets you loose in their aircraft!
What you have to do, I found, is spread your wings a little (pardon the pun). For instance, I live 10 mins from Barton. I hate the place, it's culture and the waterlogged grass runway built on a peat bog (dons helmet and awaits incoming) I started at Liverpool and have since moved to Sheffield (for personal reasons). Both are a 45 minute drive away, both have good schools, long tarmac runways and good facilitiles. The best thing about Sheffield is that I do all the circuits I want at another airfield for £10 the lot. This can reduce the cost wholesale, and has for me anyway.
Living in London, have a look around the cambridge / Peterborough area. Yes you have a little travelling to do, but balance that against saving a couple of grand! Then there is the south coast as well, places like Shoreham. Have a day out, drive around these places and see what the commute is like. If you can stand it then book a trial lesson with them, most schools offer these. Have at least 2 (the hours count in your logbook) and compare the equipment, instructor level and price. If you are unsre come back here and ask.
In the flying world we are generally nice people who have a great interest in aviation, we must have as we pay a lot for it, and we will always welcome new members to "our club". If we can help in any way, just ask us!!!
Yes this is an very expensive hobby, I once heard it described as more addictive than heroin and twice as expensive!! However, the medical seems very steep. Have a look at the CAA web site, they have a list of all AME's there and call 3 or 4 and find out what they cahrge, expect around 100 - 150 max.
Landings. Sadly as already stated, there are more than one per hour. My first solo cost me £80 in landing fees alone. (£10 per go). USA- yes you can do a JAA licence and the price is lower, but then so is the standard. A lot (Note not all) of the FTO's out there operate a factory production line of students, and you will return with your licence for half the price over here. At least one CFI told me that he would want anyone coming back from the states to have another 10 hours to get them used to flying in our more congested skies. This might be a little over the top, but expect at least another 5 hours tuition before anyone lets you loose in their aircraft!
What you have to do, I found, is spread your wings a little (pardon the pun). For instance, I live 10 mins from Barton. I hate the place, it's culture and the waterlogged grass runway built on a peat bog (dons helmet and awaits incoming) I started at Liverpool and have since moved to Sheffield (for personal reasons). Both are a 45 minute drive away, both have good schools, long tarmac runways and good facilitiles. The best thing about Sheffield is that I do all the circuits I want at another airfield for £10 the lot. This can reduce the cost wholesale, and has for me anyway.
Living in London, have a look around the cambridge / Peterborough area. Yes you have a little travelling to do, but balance that against saving a couple of grand! Then there is the south coast as well, places like Shoreham. Have a day out, drive around these places and see what the commute is like. If you can stand it then book a trial lesson with them, most schools offer these. Have at least 2 (the hours count in your logbook) and compare the equipment, instructor level and price. If you are unsre come back here and ask.
In the flying world we are generally nice people who have a great interest in aviation, we must have as we pay a lot for it, and we will always welcome new members to "our club". If we can help in any way, just ask us!!!
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Originally Posted by cessna l plate
USA- yes you can do a JAA licence and the price is lower, but then so is the standard. A lot (Note not all) of the FTO's out there operate a factory production line of students, and you will return with your licence for half the price over here. At least one CFI told me that he would want anyone coming back from the states to have another 10 hours to get them used to flying in our more congested skies.
t again! They would say that, wouldn't they, so they can milk you a bit more. 
While there certainly are the 'sausage factory' schools in the US (apparently especially around Florida), I venture to say you learn more over there. More congested skies in the UK ? You gotta be joking. Chaotic airspace, yes, people flying around without radio (or radio skills), yes, no ATC to speak of (for GA), yes - but more congested ? Unless you learn to fly somewhere deep in Arizona or the Midwest, definitely not.
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PPL Costs
Fliegel,
I live in North London, and am going for my PPL, i went to visit Cranfield Flight Training, and had an hour in a Cessna 150. They assure me that lessons are £114 per hour, all inclusive, and they can arrange a medical for around £90 to £150. All seems very friendly also. Try looking up their website, see what you think.
I live in North London, and am going for my PPL, i went to visit Cranfield Flight Training, and had an hour in a Cessna 150. They assure me that lessons are £114 per hour, all inclusive, and they can arrange a medical for around £90 to £150. All seems very friendly also. Try looking up their website, see what you think.
"The NPPL is currently a dead end, suitable for pilots who can't get the CAA Class 2 medical."
What uninformed nonsense.
Work behind the scenes continues; after a meeting due in 3 weeks' time the likely timetable for the ANO amendment simplifying and improving revalidation requirements should be known.
If anything is looking like coming to a dead end, the CAA's strageic review gives the impression that is has concerns about non-commercial air transport operators using the loopholes of 'regulatory shopping' to fly non-JAA registered aeroplanes on non-JAA licences in JAA airspace for an indefinite period of time. Will this see the phasing out of 'flag of convenience' N-reg ownership? Who knows - but the topic is obviously being looked at.
What uninformed nonsense.
Work behind the scenes continues; after a meeting due in 3 weeks' time the likely timetable for the ANO amendment simplifying and improving revalidation requirements should be known.
If anything is looking like coming to a dead end, the CAA's strageic review gives the impression that is has concerns about non-commercial air transport operators using the loopholes of 'regulatory shopping' to fly non-JAA registered aeroplanes on non-JAA licences in JAA airspace for an indefinite period of time. Will this see the phasing out of 'flag of convenience' N-reg ownership? Who knows - but the topic is obviously being looked at.
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What uninformed nonsense
I used the word "currently", and what I said is currently correct, if for example somebody wants to be able to fly abroad one day. The NPPL cannot be used abroad. The CAA cannot do anything whatsoever to change this. Why accept such a massive restriction on one's flying freedom, unless the pilot has literally no other option? Any cost saving is insignificant in the long run, particularly as one has to reach a certain standard anyway (during the PPL training, or afterwards to reach a given level of confidence).
Not being able to fly abroad may not seen significant after one's first flight but it sure as hell will be significant a little bit of time down the road, when one has done the 5 standard local burger runs at £100 a pop. What is the attrition rate of new PPL holders at present? The CAA don't publish the data directly (pretty obviously intentionally) but it's pretty close to a total loss of all new holders within a few years. The churn rate of private flying probably exceeds that of an internet dating agency.
Only EASA might be able to introduce an EU-wide "sports license" or whatever they will call it. It's virtually certain that they will accept previous training; they may even accept an NPPL as a straight swap. But I don't think anybody actually knows at this point.
I don't know why you have a dig at foreign registered aircraft based in the EU, Beagle. This has been going on for decades, has been a wholly predictable thorn in the side of the EU bastions of protectionism for all of that time, and various wholly predictable attempts to stop it have not been successful. It is done almost entirely for very good technical reasons, which have been discussed here ad nauseum, which you as a seasoned professional in this business will be familiar with, and UK/EU policies on FCL and certification are entirely to blame for it. Nobody would go foreign-reg otherwise; it's a major hassle and extra expense (I should know, having done the whole hog).
I used the word "currently", and what I said is currently correct, if for example somebody wants to be able to fly abroad one day. The NPPL cannot be used abroad. The CAA cannot do anything whatsoever to change this. Why accept such a massive restriction on one's flying freedom, unless the pilot has literally no other option? Any cost saving is insignificant in the long run, particularly as one has to reach a certain standard anyway (during the PPL training, or afterwards to reach a given level of confidence).
Not being able to fly abroad may not seen significant after one's first flight but it sure as hell will be significant a little bit of time down the road, when one has done the 5 standard local burger runs at £100 a pop. What is the attrition rate of new PPL holders at present? The CAA don't publish the data directly (pretty obviously intentionally) but it's pretty close to a total loss of all new holders within a few years. The churn rate of private flying probably exceeds that of an internet dating agency.
Only EASA might be able to introduce an EU-wide "sports license" or whatever they will call it. It's virtually certain that they will accept previous training; they may even accept an NPPL as a straight swap. But I don't think anybody actually knows at this point.
I don't know why you have a dig at foreign registered aircraft based in the EU, Beagle. This has been going on for decades, has been a wholly predictable thorn in the side of the EU bastions of protectionism for all of that time, and various wholly predictable attempts to stop it have not been successful. It is done almost entirely for very good technical reasons, which have been discussed here ad nauseum, which you as a seasoned professional in this business will be familiar with, and UK/EU policies on FCL and certification are entirely to blame for it. Nobody would go foreign-reg otherwise; it's a major hassle and extra expense (I should know, having done the whole hog).
Last edited by IO540; 3rd Aug 2006 at 06:52.
The only reason I mentioned the foreign registration / licensing issue was because yesterday I just happened to read this in the CAA's Executive Summary in the GA Strategic Review:
Overall costs to GA (non-regulatory as well as regulatory) are perceived to have increased, and the increasing prevalence of foreign-registered aircraft
permanently based in the UK suggests that some form of “regulatory shopping” is going on.
Overall costs to GA (non-regulatory as well as regulatory) are perceived to have increased, and the increasing prevalence of foreign-registered aircraft
permanently based in the UK suggests that some form of “regulatory shopping” is going on.
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Typical UK attitude.
The UK no longer gives good value for money in many things, which is why I
- moved away from the UK
- moved my company to the US
- agreed an equitable tax regime with my new host country
Regulatory shopping? Of course, why shouldn't one be able to use choice in these matters, just as the UK governemtn exhorts people to change energy providers.
The UK authorities should address the root causes, not the symptoms.
And this applies to many walks of life, not just GA.
The UK no longer gives good value for money in many things, which is why I
- moved away from the UK
- moved my company to the US
- agreed an equitable tax regime with my new host country
Regulatory shopping? Of course, why shouldn't one be able to use choice in these matters, just as the UK governemtn exhorts people to change energy providers.
The UK authorities should address the root causes, not the symptoms.
And this applies to many walks of life, not just GA.
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I went to the US (to OBA) and loved every minute of it. Got the licence, came back and have no problems. The RT is not significantly different, and after flying around Daytona you certainly get used to a busy RT environment. The weather was also quite challenging with 2 hurricanes passing over while I was there. Flew in crosswind and rainy conditions and certainly prepared me for flying back here.
All in it cost me £4500 including flights, food, beer et al, and was great fun - superb cameraderie.
I also benefited from the solid course format, the weather where I am would mean that it would take me months (or even years) to do the PPL. Since coming back, I was signed off in around 5 hours, but that was largely due to high instructor turnover - ended up doing the same thing 3 times
The US is a fantastic place to fly and learn - no landing fees, loads of regional airstrips, all with good facilities and a general "can-do" attitude about aviation.
If you were considering the US route, I'd suggest contacting a few people who have been to various schools (find them via blogs and google rather than on here - get a range of opinions!).
Also - it's no bad thing to get 4 or 5 hours under your belt here before you go - certainly helps with the flying. Trim, Trim, Trim, Trim, Trim - Trim is your friend - learn how to do it properly with a few general handling lessons and you'll be ahead of the game before you go.
And get used to RT before you go - buy an airband radio and listen to it. Get the RT CDs and play them to get a feel for it.
And the most important one - Get as many of the exams out of the way as you can. Possibly with the exception of Nav. And before you do anything - learn how to use the whizz wheel for calculations and wind-up/down drift calculations - its worth it if you know how to use it before you start the exams as it's the only thing you can take in with you.
To be perfectly honest, Air Law is just a big memory job, Human Performance is mostly school biology and is pretty simple. I left Nav until after I'd planned my cross countries (we had a specific Nav briefing for that) and the practical application helped loads when doing the exam - much easier than doing it "cold" from the books.
I did all 7 exams when I was over there, and it's perfectly possible, but it meant virtually every evening hitting the books.
And whatever you do - get the Class 2 (or 1) medical before you start training - you don't want any surprises after you've spent your hardearned cash!
Wherever you learn - Good luck! And I'm sure you'll love it
All in it cost me £4500 including flights, food, beer et al, and was great fun - superb cameraderie.
I also benefited from the solid course format, the weather where I am would mean that it would take me months (or even years) to do the PPL. Since coming back, I was signed off in around 5 hours, but that was largely due to high instructor turnover - ended up doing the same thing 3 times
The US is a fantastic place to fly and learn - no landing fees, loads of regional airstrips, all with good facilities and a general "can-do" attitude about aviation.
If you were considering the US route, I'd suggest contacting a few people who have been to various schools (find them via blogs and google rather than on here
- get a range of opinions!).Also - it's no bad thing to get 4 or 5 hours under your belt here before you go - certainly helps with the flying. Trim, Trim, Trim, Trim, Trim - Trim is your friend - learn how to do it properly with a few general handling lessons and you'll be ahead of the game before you go.
And get used to RT before you go - buy an airband radio and listen to it. Get the RT CDs and play them to get a feel for it.
And the most important one - Get as many of the exams out of the way as you can. Possibly with the exception of Nav. And before you do anything - learn how to use the whizz wheel for calculations and wind-up/down drift calculations - its worth it if you know how to use it before you start the exams as it's the only thing you can take in with you.
To be perfectly honest, Air Law is just a big memory job, Human Performance is mostly school biology and is pretty simple. I left Nav until after I'd planned my cross countries (we had a specific Nav briefing for that) and the practical application helped loads when doing the exam - much easier than doing it "cold" from the books.
I did all 7 exams when I was over there, and it's perfectly possible, but it meant virtually every evening hitting the books.
And whatever you do - get the Class 2 (or 1) medical before you start training - you don't want any surprises after you've spent your hardearned cash!
Wherever you learn - Good luck! And I'm sure you'll love it
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The phrase "regulatory shopping" betrays a near total lack of understanding as to why people keep their planes on the US register, despite the considerable extra cost and hassle.
That CAA report (if it's the same one) contains a number of major errors. One of them is a statement that the IMC Rating can be attached only to a UK PPL, which is supposedly why the number of new IMCRs issued has declined substantially since the introduction of the JAA PPL
That CAA report (if it's the same one) contains a number of major errors. One of them is a statement that the IMC Rating can be attached only to a UK PPL, which is supposedly why the number of new IMCRs issued has declined substantially since the introduction of the JAA PPL
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Originally Posted by IO540
Don't bank on the NPPL being European anytime soon, certainly not before EASA takes over FCL completely and that is probably 2 years away.
The NPPL is currently a dead end, suitable for pilots who can't get the CAA Class 2 medical.
The NPPL is currently a dead end, suitable for pilots who can't get the CAA Class 2 medical.
Sorry I don't agree, the NPPL M is a great way to enjoy flying, especially for anyone with no interest in night or instrument flying, which it appears not many ppl licence holders do anyway, so save yourself at least 50% training fees
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Rans -
What exactly do you fly, how much did it cost you and what's the operating cost per hour, if you don't mind me asking? Your trip to Sandown for just £40 sounds a bargain and I'm either going to have to find a cheaper way to fly, or give up flying until the finances improve... so any hints would help.
Regards
Big.Al
What exactly do you fly, how much did it cost you and what's the operating cost per hour, if you don't mind me asking? Your trip to Sandown for just £40 sounds a bargain and I'm either going to have to find a cheaper way to fly, or give up flying until the finances improve... so any hints would help.
Regards
Big.Al
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I have no issue with day VFR only (one can be awfully imaginative with "VFR" especially in a well equipped plane) but my point was that being stuck to the UK is going to be a bit of an issue for most, sooner or later.
The amount of work involved in doing the full PPL is not much, when one looks back on it a few years later.
Of course, if one is looking for the cheapest and quickest way to just get airborne, regardless of future options, the NPPL is the cheapest UK option.
The amount of work involved in doing the full PPL is not much, when one looks back on it a few years later.
Of course, if one is looking for the cheapest and quickest way to just get airborne, regardless of future options, the NPPL is the cheapest UK option.
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Why not just go to the states and do an FAA license?
Not a lot you can't do with a FAA PPL in the UK that you can with a JAR license.
I did my FAA license in Pennsylvania last summer over 4 weeks:
£3500 all included
www.ukft.com
www.advantageaero.com
I had to pay for my own flight out there (but I work for BA so it was only £100). £3500 includes 45 hours in a C152, 30 hours with an instructor, visa and TSA fees, flight and written tests, accomodation and even a car! All books and materials included too! All I needed to pay on top was my air fare, headset, food and a few rounds in the local bar with the other students! No landing fees at all ANYWHERE, except Philadelphia International (and we dodged that one anyway!)
In my opinion there is just no point doing the full license in the UK if you can get the time off work to do it in the states. I've posted a lot more about this in another thread so do a search for the full post.
Not a lot you can't do with a FAA PPL in the UK that you can with a JAR license.
I did my FAA license in Pennsylvania last summer over 4 weeks:
£3500 all included
www.ukft.com
www.advantageaero.com
I had to pay for my own flight out there (but I work for BA so it was only £100). £3500 includes 45 hours in a C152, 30 hours with an instructor, visa and TSA fees, flight and written tests, accomodation and even a car! All books and materials included too! All I needed to pay on top was my air fare, headset, food and a few rounds in the local bar with the other students! No landing fees at all ANYWHERE, except Philadelphia International (and we dodged that one anyway!)
In my opinion there is just no point doing the full license in the UK if you can get the time off work to do it in the states. I've posted a lot more about this in another thread so do a search for the full post.