Speculating about accidents on this and other Sites (Merged again)
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Originally Posted by Pitts2112
The reason I don't like seeing accidents discussed here or on other newsgroups/bulletin boards is that the discussions very often descend into trying to find blame rather than create a useful learning point and end up assassinating the character of the people concerned or implicated, all of it based on pure speculation and heresay.
If the discussion remains one of "well, xxxxxxx has been known to happen and the consequences are often xxxx" then I'm quite happy to take part in that kind of conversation. What it usually becomes, though, is "well, it clearly must have been xxxx and the pilot/maintainter/whatever was negligent/stupid/careless/whatever" and ends up in rants about procedures, training, individuals' competence and judgement, etc. Very rarely is anything positive or useful said in those kinds of threads. They may appear to be geared toward impoiving safety and learning from others' mishaps, but they often are just masking malicious or, at best, unhelpful gossip based on the words of people who were, by definition, not there. If no one in the conversation was in the cockpit, what value does any of us really think we can add?
The ones that really bug me are the ones that end up accusing the pilot of being negligent or incompetent. It is very easy for us to sit at our computers or around the aero clubhouse and take hours to dissect and rule properly on a situation where a real-life and often scared-witless pilot had mere seconds to act. Any speculation as to the validity of his actions is purely misplaced.
Besides all of that, what good is trying to learn something based on incomplete and innacurate information? Try learning physics using a 1950s text with every third page ripped out and see how far you can get on understanding the theory of relativity. The best we are going to come up with is something we already know or a big question mark when we recognise we don't know enough to have a meaningful dialogue.
That's why I stay off those threads and don't like to see them continued. In my experience they don't really add anything to the cause of safety. If they did, you'd expect to see a noticeable drop in the GA accident rate since the widespread use of the Internet started to make us all much smarter, but that hasn't happened.
Pitts2112
If the discussion remains one of "well, xxxxxxx has been known to happen and the consequences are often xxxx" then I'm quite happy to take part in that kind of conversation. What it usually becomes, though, is "well, it clearly must have been xxxx and the pilot/maintainter/whatever was negligent/stupid/careless/whatever" and ends up in rants about procedures, training, individuals' competence and judgement, etc. Very rarely is anything positive or useful said in those kinds of threads. They may appear to be geared toward impoiving safety and learning from others' mishaps, but they often are just masking malicious or, at best, unhelpful gossip based on the words of people who were, by definition, not there. If no one in the conversation was in the cockpit, what value does any of us really think we can add?
The ones that really bug me are the ones that end up accusing the pilot of being negligent or incompetent. It is very easy for us to sit at our computers or around the aero clubhouse and take hours to dissect and rule properly on a situation where a real-life and often scared-witless pilot had mere seconds to act. Any speculation as to the validity of his actions is purely misplaced.
Besides all of that, what good is trying to learn something based on incomplete and innacurate information? Try learning physics using a 1950s text with every third page ripped out and see how far you can get on understanding the theory of relativity. The best we are going to come up with is something we already know or a big question mark when we recognise we don't know enough to have a meaningful dialogue.
That's why I stay off those threads and don't like to see them continued. In my experience they don't really add anything to the cause of safety. If they did, you'd expect to see a noticeable drop in the GA accident rate since the widespread use of the Internet started to make us all much smarter, but that hasn't happened.
Pitts2112
But we all have a high degree of curiosity and I'll admit to it being the reason for looking at (although rarely contributing) to accident threads. I've had a look at the Southend one and cringed at the condolences. It's not a very comfortable feeling but put a gun to my head and I'll say stall/spin. Curiosity satisfied and if people want to wail in public at the loss of a teenager - carry on, I'm not interested anymore.
We have to accept that fora are really little better than pubs, sometimes you find people talking sense, sometimes they are even drunker than you! Try and censor that chat - its like sweeping water uphill. Expecting only noble thought provoking safety comments - probably the same.
Accept that you might find something useful, at worst you're wasted a few minutes of your time. As for the 'thought police' who want no discussion - they need to get a life. Understand that linkages and currency are what makes things memorable, no one is very interested in accidents that happened to people they do not know, that occured many months ago. Currency is nearly everything. I learnt my stall/spin lesson before internet fora, but it was very close and immdiate - I won't forget it. The fora allow us all to have an element of that immediacy - and that is a good thing. I doubt you can measure it but it is a force for good (or at least accident avoidance).
So having quoted Pitts 2112 I'll continue to quibble - look on the net for a snatch of video of an ultralight stalling and crashing into the trees at Sun'n Fun. (its OK he wasn't really hurt!!). Tell me you cann't learnt something from that.
I'll admit that pointing the finger is not nice - but we have an unforgiving hobby (In my case it's a hobby), nature doesn't care for these semantics. But at the end of the day the laws of libel still apply online so there is legal protection.
So I think we should freely speculate on these incidents. Offering condolences - cannot see any reason to - when my father died the last thing on my mind was cruising fora to see what people might be saying. If you know the person a phone call is going to mean a huge amount more. If you don't know the person then what is the point - 3000 people a year died in traffic accidents last year in the UK- should there be an internet memorial where we can all mourne their deaths? Or should we only select 'nice' and 'unusual' people - children killed by lightning - but not those killed by cars.
Carry on posting your condolences - it is a very useful clue to the validity of your opinions. Going back to the Southend crash. Lots of condolences, no one really hitting the nail on the head, a lot of sympathy for everyone - and a lot of discussion about avoiding stall/spin - at least its positive gossip!
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Censoring what someone has to say just because you don't like it is absurd. We all have valid opinions, some of us will agree, others disagree. If a thread isn't to your liking don't read it, let alone post. I personally can't offer condolences to someone I don't know - for me it doesn't feel right. Others will disagree. I find discussions about possible relevant factors following an accident infinitely more constructive.
The Original Whirly
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Crosswind Limits,
I agree entirely; I said almost the same thing. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone will notice what either of us said. Arguing and having strong opinions is just so much more fun, isn't it.
I agree entirely; I said almost the same thing. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone will notice what either of us said. Arguing and having strong opinions is just so much more fun, isn't it.
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Without wanting to sound hypocritical, I just visited the Essex fire brigade website after reading - in sheer horror and disbelief - that pictures of this incident are posted on a website by the aforementioned authority.
Great for sick and twisted rubber-neckers
Did you re-read your post?
Tell me you didn't look at all the photographs.
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Speculation, sharing experiences and discussion is basic PPRuNE policy.
Mawkish, sentimentalising by total strangers after a fatal is loathsome to us and moderators are encouraged to delete it or seperate it into another thread.
We'll take considered speculation over trite, hackneyed sentiment anyday.
Your mileage may well vary but that's how we run the site.
Regards
Rob
Mawkish, sentimentalising by total strangers after a fatal is loathsome to us and moderators are encouraged to delete it or seperate it into another thread.
We'll take considered speculation over trite, hackneyed sentiment anyday.
Your mileage may well vary but that's how we run the site.
Regards
Rob
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Nil Flaps,
With all due respect:
1. That area of the website is clearly for the media. You are not likely to come across it unless you are actively looking for something like that.
2. I appreciate and respect the job that the emergency services do. What is somebody's tragedy is their everyday work. On that particular day they have listed 5 very different incidents. I now appreciate the work they do much more.
3. Today I flew a new type of aeroplane for the first time (a biplane). Its only the 3rd aircraft type I've flown. My speeds were all over the place but there was a very skilled pilot there to save my sorry a*s. Next time though I'll take more care, because I don't want to end up like in the pictures. In my case they are a bit of a wake up call. Maybe they are to some other people too.
With all due respect:
1. That area of the website is clearly for the media. You are not likely to come across it unless you are actively looking for something like that.
2. I appreciate and respect the job that the emergency services do. What is somebody's tragedy is their everyday work. On that particular day they have listed 5 very different incidents. I now appreciate the work they do much more.
3. Today I flew a new type of aeroplane for the first time (a biplane). Its only the 3rd aircraft type I've flown. My speeds were all over the place but there was a very skilled pilot there to save my sorry a*s. Next time though I'll take more care, because I don't want to end up like in the pictures. In my case they are a bit of a wake up call. Maybe they are to some other people too.
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Why do some people go looking for things they know they wont like and then complain out loud! It makes no sense!
This was a dreadful accident at an airport I know extremely well. I visited the Essex Fire Brigade web site and looked at the images BUT I knew what was coming. It was a stark reminder to me that whilst flying is fun it can also be dangerous!
This was a dreadful accident at an airport I know extremely well. I visited the Essex Fire Brigade web site and looked at the images BUT I knew what was coming. It was a stark reminder to me that whilst flying is fun it can also be dangerous!
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It is news reporting and possibly an attempt to stimulate discussion. We would have all heard about it eventually. Nothing wrong with that. It was news worthy and needed to be reported. That's fact whether you like it or not!
There's another forum on PPRuNe which caters for commercial news items - it's called Rumours and News!
Now what is your exact problem?
There's another forum on PPRuNe which caters for commercial news items - it's called Rumours and News!
Now what is your exact problem?
The Original Whirly
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Oh, for goodness sake, WR!!!!! (And I nearly said something far, far stronger!!!!!!!)
If just up the road from YOU a light aircraft crashed, are you seriously telling us you'd have no interest whatsoever? That you'd sit there and go, "Oh, right, OK; can you pass the tea please (yawn)". Of course you bloody wouldn't!!!! You'd want to know more. It might be someone you knew. It was close to home and that made it more real. That's human nature, and thank god it is. If we stopped caring about family, then friends, then neighbours, then people we know, we'd be pretty sad and inhuman, don't you think? So, how do you find out what happened? You ask on PPRuNe. Someone will know, if you ask on here.
I heard rumours of that same accident and I wasn't even living close. I nearly asked on here too. Why? Because to me, the whole of the small GA community is a bit of an extended family. It might have been someone I knew, wherever it happened; I've been flying for quite a while and I know a lot of people. And I'd want to know. And I'm sure I speak for quite a lot of us.
So why are threads like this initiated? For all sorts of reasons. To know, to investigate, to learn, etc etc etc. Does the precise reason matter? Why do you have a problem with this?
If just up the road from YOU a light aircraft crashed, are you seriously telling us you'd have no interest whatsoever? That you'd sit there and go, "Oh, right, OK; can you pass the tea please (yawn)". Of course you bloody wouldn't!!!! You'd want to know more. It might be someone you knew. It was close to home and that made it more real. That's human nature, and thank god it is. If we stopped caring about family, then friends, then neighbours, then people we know, we'd be pretty sad and inhuman, don't you think? So, how do you find out what happened? You ask on PPRuNe. Someone will know, if you ask on here.
I heard rumours of that same accident and I wasn't even living close. I nearly asked on here too. Why? Because to me, the whole of the small GA community is a bit of an extended family. It might have been someone I knew, wherever it happened; I've been flying for quite a while and I know a lot of people. And I'd want to know. And I'm sure I speak for quite a lot of us.
So why are threads like this initiated? For all sorts of reasons. To know, to investigate, to learn, etc etc etc. Does the precise reason matter? Why do you have a problem with this?
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Could not agree with KL12479 more, its a definate wake up call, plus the same could be said for most incidents on the Essex FB site.
As mentioned this area of the site is aimed at the media, but I can assure you that whenever something happens, crash, fire, or cat up a tree, more often than not the Essex FB images are downloaded from the site, and will be used in our local papers, for of course everyone to see.
That`s news i suppose.
As mentioned this area of the site is aimed at the media, but I can assure you that whenever something happens, crash, fire, or cat up a tree, more often than not the Essex FB images are downloaded from the site, and will be used in our local papers, for of course everyone to see.
That`s news i suppose.
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CPilotUK you smart-alec, yes I did re-read my post... now maybe you should.
I went there only because someone on this thread mentioned it and I could not beilieve that the fire service would post these images without having some kind of secure access. If it is designed for the media, it should be password protected.
I saw a number of thumbnails fleetingly. I did not feel the need to open them to have a good gawp. For all the tossers out there who think it's okay for these images to be made public, you obviously have little regard for the family's feelings.
You'd be saying the same thing if it happened to one of your family members or friends. Spare a thought.
We all know there is an element of risk in flying. We all know there are casualties. For those of you who need to see images like these to serve as a wake-up call, maybe you should not be flying in the first place.
I went there only because someone on this thread mentioned it and I could not beilieve that the fire service would post these images without having some kind of secure access. If it is designed for the media, it should be password protected.
I saw a number of thumbnails fleetingly. I did not feel the need to open them to have a good gawp. For all the tossers out there who think it's okay for these images to be made public, you obviously have little regard for the family's feelings.
You'd be saying the same thing if it happened to one of your family members or friends. Spare a thought.
We all know there is an element of risk in flying. We all know there are casualties. For those of you who need to see images like these to serve as a wake-up call, maybe you should not be flying in the first place.
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Originally Posted by WR
The precise reason does matter if subsequent postings (e.g. analysis) are then taken as being offensive or distasteful.
I'll start ...
Dear reader please accept that this post was not made with any intention to offend, cause distress, or start a discussion about any of the following subjects:-
Life of Batteries
Pilot error
Safety record of GPS
Requirement to have a current chart
CAA regulations
It is a statement of fact only for your information and I would be grateful if any posts outside the above stated reasons were posted in a separate thread. Any references to persons living or dead is entirely coincidental, caveat emptor, English Law applies, your house may be at risk if you do not keep up the payments, interest rates may fall as well as rise, God save the Queen.
post BEGINS:-
"My GPS batteries failed on Sunday and for a few moments I was uncertain of my position as I had not packed a spare set - so make sure that this doesn't happen to you"
END of post
May be a wee bit OTT but I think it makes the point.
The Original Whirly
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Thus the implied requirement is that we must explain the reason we make each post so that the readers know what is in our mind so that they can respond within the constraints of the original post.
Next time I post, just thinking: well, people on Private Flying might like to know about this, as it's aviation-related, I'll think deeply before I do so, and make sure I know the real reason why I'm posting. And I'll try to explain it carefully. If it's a bit of news, catastrophic or otherwise, I'd better explain that all I wanted to do was pass it on, and I don't think I'm feeling good about being the first person to have heard it. But wait, maybe I don't really know my own motives. Maybe I hoped someone would pass on some information. Maybe, deep down, I hoped they'd say: Wow, Whirly, fancy you knowing that! Ooo, this is difficult. I see I'll have to be really, really careful before I post again. In fact, it might be easier to just give it up altogether, and turn into a lurker.I need a drink.
The Original Whirly
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I went there only because someone on this thread mentioned it and I could not beilieve that the fire service would post these images without having some kind of secure access. If it is designed for the media, it should be password protected.
You'd be saying the same thing if it happened to one of your family members or friends. Spare a thought.
We all know there is an element of risk in flying. We all know there are casualties. For those of you who need to see images like these to serve as a wake-up call, maybe you should not be flying in the first place.
Have you ever heard of the word tolerance? Has it ever occurred to you that another's point of view is as valid as your own?
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Without wanting to sound hypocritical, I just visited the Essex fire brigade website after reading - in sheer horror and disbelief - that pictures of this incident are posted on a website by the aforementioned authority.
The whole idea of posting such filth made my skin crawl.
It is deplorable that they feel the need to publish images of scenes that they attend including plane crashes, house fires, motor vehicle accidents etc., especially considering that fatalities or severe injuries have been sustained in some of those occurrances, not to mention the distress it would cause family, friends or the people involved by publicly displaying images of terrible misfortune for the entire world to gawp at. What on earth are they thinking?
If it is there to serve as some kind of useful visual investigative record, why not make it private and only accessible to the people who need to see it?
Great for sick and twisted rubber-neckers, awful for family and friends.
Essex Fire Brigade, you should be ashamed.
The whole idea of posting such filth made my skin crawl.
It is deplorable that they feel the need to publish images of scenes that they attend including plane crashes, house fires, motor vehicle accidents etc., especially considering that fatalities or severe injuries have been sustained in some of those occurrances, not to mention the distress it would cause family, friends or the people involved by publicly displaying images of terrible misfortune for the entire world to gawp at. What on earth are they thinking?
If it is there to serve as some kind of useful visual investigative record, why not make it private and only accessible to the people who need to see it?
Great for sick and twisted rubber-neckers, awful for family and friends.
Essex Fire Brigade, you should be ashamed.
Last week I was looking at pictures of severe burns, lacerations, contusions, gunshot wounds, head injuries, severely broken bones, other severe injuries and dead bodies. I was also shown pictures of crashed helicopters, oil rigs on fire, capsized oil rigs, etc.. all supplied by a fire service. This was part of a course I was doing, and was intended that we use this material as part of the course to learn from. I also turned on the telly last night, and Trauma Uncut was on BBC3. It didn't disgust me, though I did turn it off when the Mrs came in as she found it upsetting.
When a friend of mine plowed into a mountain on an instrument approach, killing himself, the second pilot, his two god children and their mother on Christmas eve a couple of years ago, I did go and view the pictures of the crash scene.We speculated very quickly from the evidence available, and using our own interpretation, as pilots, that it was probably pilot error (why else do you fail to go missed at the MAP and fly a nice steady track and altitude with no sign of a problem on the radar traces only to miss the top of a mountain by 15 feet.....in the wrong direction, and at the published minimums). The NTSB, 2½ years on, could find no other cause.
So I will continue to try and learn from accidents in an attempt to stop them from happening to myself, and if by seeing these pictures I then take extra care on a base to final turn, then that is a good thing.
