Watch the speed!
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Watch the speed!
I didn’t want to post this on the tragic accident thread, as we don’t know the real reason for the crash,and supposition doesn't help anybody.
We were talking about it last night with some very experienced pilots and I recalled that when I was early into solos on the PA28-180, I was on short final and the controls went a bit sloppy, I looked at airspeed and it was 65 knots!
I lowered the nose slightly and increased power and thankfully everything worked out OK, I’ve not done it since because it was a real wake up call and I now always keep my eye alternately on the airspeed and outside view.
I know I’m low hours, but perhaps that makes this more relevant for all students.
There is a high workload on the base and final approach and it is easy to forget the most important thing when you are concentrating on other stuff.
Lister
We were talking about it last night with some very experienced pilots and I recalled that when I was early into solos on the PA28-180, I was on short final and the controls went a bit sloppy, I looked at airspeed and it was 65 knots!
I lowered the nose slightly and increased power and thankfully everything worked out OK, I’ve not done it since because it was a real wake up call and I now always keep my eye alternately on the airspeed and outside view.
I know I’m low hours, but perhaps that makes this more relevant for all students.
There is a high workload on the base and final approach and it is easy to forget the most important thing when you are concentrating on other stuff.
Lister
Last edited by Lister Noble; 22nd Jul 2006 at 10:50.
The Original Whirly
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The way I got taught landings was to look in turn at the trees beyond the end of runway, then the aiming point, then the ASI, then back to trees etc.
Doesn't everyone learn it that way?
Doesn't everyone learn it that way?
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Perhaps a bit more emphasis should be place on looking out the window and judging speed and attitude correctly. When I first learnt to fly in microlights I did a good number of circuits with the already sparse instruments covered up, flying totally by the feel of the aircraft and what I saw out the window.
Something that stood me well yesterday when on the climb out an insect flew down my pitout tube and blocked it!! The airspeed dropped off to zero indicated. I flew the 10 miles home and land by the feel of the aircraft judging speed and attitude. A non eventful landing followed by the removal of the offending insect body.
Something that stood me well yesterday when on the climb out an insect flew down my pitout tube and blocked it!! The airspeed dropped off to zero indicated. I flew the 10 miles home and land by the feel of the aircraft judging speed and attitude. A non eventful landing followed by the removal of the offending insect body.
Spicy Meatball
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A very important point:
'FEEL' - fly it by the seat of your pants also, as touched on by bose. The first thing I usually notice is the stiff controls, followed by the stall warner - then 'something' just doesn't feel quite right...
Safe flying,
Maz
'FEEL' - fly it by the seat of your pants also, as touched on by bose. The first thing I usually notice is the stiff controls, followed by the stall warner - then 'something' just doesn't feel quite right...
Safe flying,
Maz
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Learning on a fixed wing microlight at Sywell I have been going through a phase recently of being told to 'fly the attitude, not the instruments'. It is all too easy to get fixated on the instruments, when they might be laggy, might be wrong, etc.
When I finally manage to get the right attitudes into my brain for every flap setting with or without power I might be able to get the landings right
My 2p...
Cheers
Kev
When I finally manage to get the right attitudes into my brain for every flap setting with or without power I might be able to get the landings right
My 2p...
Cheers
Kev
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Originally Posted by Fournicator
Numbers, Speed, Power, Numbers, Speed, Power, Windsock, Numbers, Speed, Power, Numbers, Speed, Power, Ball etc etc!
Fournicator's mantra is a program I like to have running in the background of my mind at all times irrespective of more established checks.
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My instructor taught me the landing mantra on base/final:
"Height's good, speed's good, runway's good."
When I'm alone in the a/c I still say it out loud and if any of the 'goods' have to be replaced by something else, such as 'low' or 'high' then I do something about is straightaway.
If I've got a non-pilot passenger then I repeat the mantra silently but I still repeat it.
If I get 3 'non-goods' on final I go around.
Cusco
"Height's good, speed's good, runway's good."
When I'm alone in the a/c I still say it out loud and if any of the 'goods' have to be replaced by something else, such as 'low' or 'high' then I do something about is straightaway.
If I've got a non-pilot passenger then I repeat the mantra silently but I still repeat it.
If I get 3 'non-goods' on final I go around.
Cusco
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Originally Posted by Longbow55
Set-up for 70 kts down wind and never look at the ASI again.
If this is really the best you can contribute, maybe it is best to learn a bit more and hold back on your contributions until you have your licence and some post qualification experience under your belt.
The wombat
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No-one has yet mentioned trim.
If you don't trim correctly you will be applying back pressure during the descent to stop the speed increasing. You won't notice it if you are applying more back pressure than necessary.
If properly trimmed it's easy to recognise that you are applying back pressure. Fail to trim and you deprive yourself of one of the cues that something is going wrong.
If you don't trim correctly you will be applying back pressure during the descent to stop the speed increasing. You won't notice it if you are applying more back pressure than necessary.
If properly trimmed it's easy to recognise that you are applying back pressure. Fail to trim and you deprive yourself of one of the cues that something is going wrong.
Spicy Meatball
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A little harsh perhaps but I agree, this is not what I was taught! It would take you an eternity to reach the runway, and in effect you'd be flying on the back of the drag curve for ages, thus increasing chances of stalling..
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Stalling or spinning at low altitude and low speed is one thing that scares me for sure.
The trick, I guess, is to recognise the symptoms before the stall actually happens. I'm just a stude myself but I believe I have a pretty good feel for this and I attribute this to quite a bit of time in gliders (albeit always dual) where they sometimes fly very near to the stall for long periods of time and where stall and spin recovery can be practiced for significantly less money than in powered trainer aircraft.
Recovery with an engine is a little different but the onset of a stall seems similar in the aircraft I have flown up to now.
splatt
The trick, I guess, is to recognise the symptoms before the stall actually happens. I'm just a stude myself but I believe I have a pretty good feel for this and I attribute this to quite a bit of time in gliders (albeit always dual) where they sometimes fly very near to the stall for long periods of time and where stall and spin recovery can be practiced for significantly less money than in powered trainer aircraft.
Recovery with an engine is a little different but the onset of a stall seems similar in the aircraft I have flown up to now.
splatt
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Trim, IME, is very poorly taught.
I was never taught what the trim does in my PPL training. It was explained that it is used to remove the back pressure, which is true but beside the point. Actually, it sets the speed at which the plane wants to fly. The engine is nothing to do with that.
So if you are trimmed for 50kt, and are flying around at 70kt, and you get distracted, the speed will fall to 50kt (it will fall more actually, due to the phugoid behaviour) and you will plummet.
Correct trimming (for the desired speed) in all phases of flight is absolutely key to safety.
I was never taught what the trim does in my PPL training. It was explained that it is used to remove the back pressure, which is true but beside the point. Actually, it sets the speed at which the plane wants to fly. The engine is nothing to do with that.
So if you are trimmed for 50kt, and are flying around at 70kt, and you get distracted, the speed will fall to 50kt (it will fall more actually, due to the phugoid behaviour) and you will plummet.
Correct trimming (for the desired speed) in all phases of flight is absolutely key to safety.
Blah Blah Blah
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Originally Posted by mazzy1026
A very important point:
'FEEL' - fly it by the seat of your pants also, as touched on by bose. The first thing I usually notice is the stiff controls, followed by the stall warner - then 'something' just doesn't feel quite right...
Safe flying,
Maz
'FEEL' - fly it by the seat of your pants also, as touched on by bose. The first thing I usually notice is the stiff controls, followed by the stall warner - then 'something' just doesn't feel quite right...
Safe flying,
Maz
Unless your a refering to stiff controls during a developed spin post stall warner
Spicy Meatball
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Originally Posted by WR
The first thing I'd expect to notice is sloppy controls!
Edit: I will dig myself out of the hole I have dug, and replace "Stiff" with "Sloppy".
GC - it's a Tomahwak - the stall warner goes off way before the stall, and is combined with the 'sloppy' controls...
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The title of this thread indicates a certain lack of understanding as what stalls a wing. It's not lack of speed, it's exceeding the critical angle of attack (which for any given wing at any given profile never ever changes).
Of course, low speed can be a way of doing just that, but lots of other things can do it as well (excessive loading, for instance, as in pulling 'G'). And there are plenty of instances where low or even zero airspeed does not cause a stall (over the top of a loop, for instance).
I've stalled a Yak52 at about 150 knots indicated, and flown the same aeroplane at zero airspeed with no stall.
The ONLY consistant thing that causes the wing to stall is exceeding that critical angle of attack. Nothing else. So never mind the speed, watch that AoA!
If you do an aeros course, AoA becomes second nature. But it might be a bit much to expect studes to recognise AoA - which is why they are taught 'the numbers' (on the ASI). But for any reasonably experienced pilot, think AoA, not airspeed, and all will be well.
SSD
Of course, low speed can be a way of doing just that, but lots of other things can do it as well (excessive loading, for instance, as in pulling 'G'). And there are plenty of instances where low or even zero airspeed does not cause a stall (over the top of a loop, for instance).
I've stalled a Yak52 at about 150 knots indicated, and flown the same aeroplane at zero airspeed with no stall.
The ONLY consistant thing that causes the wing to stall is exceeding that critical angle of attack. Nothing else. So never mind the speed, watch that AoA!
If you do an aeros course, AoA becomes second nature. But it might be a bit much to expect studes to recognise AoA - which is why they are taught 'the numbers' (on the ASI). But for any reasonably experienced pilot, think AoA, not airspeed, and all will be well.
SSD
Spicy Meatball
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SSD - in a regular training aircraft (i.e one not capable of aero's) how can you stall with a high airspeed? (Not arguing this - just want to know how).
Perhaps a demo in the chippie at Liverpool this weekend
Perhaps a demo in the chippie at Liverpool this weekend
Originally Posted by Lister Noble
I didn’t want to post this on the tragic accident thread, as we don’t know the real reason for the crash,and supposition doesn't help anybody.
We were talking about it last night with some very experienced pilots and I recalled that when I was early into solos on the PA28-180, I was on short final and the controls went a bit sloppy, I looked at airspeed and it was 65 knots!
I lowered the nose slightly and increased power and thankfully everything worked out OK, I’ve not done it since because it was a real wake up call and I now always keep my eye alternately on the airspeed and outside view.
I know I’m low hours, but perhaps that makes this more relevant for all students.
There is a high workload on the base and final approach and it is easy to forget the most important thing when you are concentrating on other stuff.
Lister
We were talking about it last night with some very experienced pilots and I recalled that when I was early into solos on the PA28-180, I was on short final and the controls went a bit sloppy, I looked at airspeed and it was 65 knots!
I lowered the nose slightly and increased power and thankfully everything worked out OK, I’ve not done it since because it was a real wake up call and I now always keep my eye alternately on the airspeed and outside view.
I know I’m low hours, but perhaps that makes this more relevant for all students.
There is a high workload on the base and final approach and it is easy to forget the most important thing when you are concentrating on other stuff.
Lister
This is not to detract from your very valid point - most major piloting errors in GA do happen on base and short finals, and often do involve speed / pitch control problems. BUT, they aren't helped by low hour pilots not being taught how to fly the aeroplane properly in the first place. Out of interest, what speed were you taught to fly finals at, and how did they justify a departure from the POH? Or did they not even give you a POH to read (a personal crusade of mine)?
G
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Originally Posted by mazzy1026
SSD - in a regular training aircraft (i.e one not capable of aero's) how can you stall with a high airspeed? (Not arguing this - just want to know how).
Perhaps a demo in the chippie at Liverpool this weekend
Perhaps a demo in the chippie at Liverpool this weekend
Love to, but I'll be on hol!
The answer is - increasing the wing loading. Aeros is when you pull serious 'G' and that's how I stalled the Yak at 150knts - pulling out of a loop and pulling too hard. In non-aeros, a steep turn will have a drastic effect of wing loading and enable the wing to rach that critical angle at what one might normally consider a 'safe' airspeed. Lots of guys have done this circling the girlfriend's house.
SSD