Watch the speed!
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I keep reading this advice to look at the far end of the runway to judge height during and after the flare to be able to accurately judge wheel height above the runway.
Can you look at the far end of the runway to wheel land a tail wheel airplane, with power off from 200 feet?
Chuck E.
Can you look at the far end of the runway to wheel land a tail wheel airplane, with power off from 200 feet?
Chuck E.
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Nope, you can't. But it is invaluable when you are in the flare in most a/c. As with anything, you teach the best method for the machine you are training in. For instance I wouldn't use C150 techniques in a 737 or vice versa.
I have never had a student who hasn't been able to land when following that advice. Since we use our peripheral vision to judge our rate of descent to the ground, looking at the cowling is a pretty daft idea!
I have never had a student who hasn't been able to land when following that advice. Since we use our peripheral vision to judge our rate of descent to the ground, looking at the cowling is a pretty daft idea!
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" I have never had a student who hasn't been able to land when following that advice. Since we use our peripheral vision to judge our rate of descent to the ground, looking at the cowling is a pretty daft idea! "
Well you have me there as I have never taught that you use peripheral vision to judge height, nor have I ever taught them to look at the far end of the runway, ( obviously the far end may be in in their peripherial vision but I except for attitude conformation I fail to see how looking that far ahead gives you an accurate picture of your height above the runway......
I teach the use of peripheral vision for attitude control ( pitch and bank ) and the center of vision area for height and velocity judgement which should be at the point ahead of you down the runway or beside same where apparent movement ceases....works for me from Cubs to heavy jets.
But what ever works for you then by all means use it.
Chuck E.
Well you have me there as I have never taught that you use peripheral vision to judge height, nor have I ever taught them to look at the far end of the runway, ( obviously the far end may be in in their peripherial vision but I except for attitude conformation I fail to see how looking that far ahead gives you an accurate picture of your height above the runway......
I teach the use of peripheral vision for attitude control ( pitch and bank ) and the center of vision area for height and velocity judgement which should be at the point ahead of you down the runway or beside same where apparent movement ceases....works for me from Cubs to heavy jets.
But what ever works for you then by all means use it.
Chuck E.
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I think there are many things we all do without thought, since they just seem to work. It's all semantics really though. If a technique of any kind works reliably for any task, then use it!
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For what it's worth before any of my students were sent first solo I'd ask them what happens if a bumblebee flys down the pitot while we're downwind?
They think for a while then usually answer that the ASI falls to zero, (anyone who thinks it stays at the current indication doesn't know about the drain hole in the pitot head.)
Anyway - I then slap an instrument blank over the ASI and get them to fly the A/C on attitude, power setting and FEEL. I pull the blank off once set up on base and they're usually within 5kts of the speed I ask them they're at.
The blank's then replaced and we fly down to, (usually,) a greaser.
Now, if you're a student, I'd advise you try it with your instructor - it'll give you a BIG confidence boost about keeping your eyes outside the aeroplane and flying by feel - and if ASI faliure happens when your'e on your own you'll handle it OK.
Also try blanking off the altimeter on the upwind leg of a circuit and judge your height once downwind - my guys could get within 50' after a few goes.
To sum it up PAT and APT does 90% of flying in anything from C150 to A380 once you learn how to land you've got the other 10% sussed!
Magoo
They think for a while then usually answer that the ASI falls to zero, (anyone who thinks it stays at the current indication doesn't know about the drain hole in the pitot head.)
Anyway - I then slap an instrument blank over the ASI and get them to fly the A/C on attitude, power setting and FEEL. I pull the blank off once set up on base and they're usually within 5kts of the speed I ask them they're at.
The blank's then replaced and we fly down to, (usually,) a greaser.
Now, if you're a student, I'd advise you try it with your instructor - it'll give you a BIG confidence boost about keeping your eyes outside the aeroplane and flying by feel - and if ASI faliure happens when your'e on your own you'll handle it OK.
Also try blanking off the altimeter on the upwind leg of a circuit and judge your height once downwind - my guys could get within 50' after a few goes.
To sum it up PAT and APT does 90% of flying in anything from C150 to A380 once you learn how to land you've got the other 10% sussed!
Magoo
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O.K...
seems that we agree we don't look at the far end of the runway to judge height when doing wheel landings..
..so lets think about landing a helicopter on a very small pad, do we look way out in the distance to judge our position, height, and velocity for touch down on the pad?
...I have been involved in the odd airshow display and find that accurate height, attitude and velocity judgement is your paramount concern..so lets think about a ribbon pick up in the normal or inverted attitude...would you look way out into the distance at the far end of the runway to be in the exact right attitude and height to pick up the ribbon instead of smacking into the ground?
Chuck E.
seems that we agree we don't look at the far end of the runway to judge height when doing wheel landings..
..so lets think about landing a helicopter on a very small pad, do we look way out in the distance to judge our position, height, and velocity for touch down on the pad?
...I have been involved in the odd airshow display and find that accurate height, attitude and velocity judgement is your paramount concern..so lets think about a ribbon pick up in the normal or inverted attitude...would you look way out into the distance at the far end of the runway to be in the exact right attitude and height to pick up the ribbon instead of smacking into the ground?
Chuck E.
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Last night was my first lesson on Slow Flight (Ex10a). It looked like a really boring lesson during briefing but proved to be quite tough and actually very very scary.
After the lesson the examiner explained that being on the wrong side of the drag curve was the main cause of most PPL accidents and I could really see why!
The problem for me was the temptation to pull back when the nose drops, absolute disaster when approaching the stall!
I have a lot more work to do on this side of things and It looks like it's well needed in light of recent accidents. The news has hit me quite hard as my own first solo is only a few weeks from now.
After the lesson the examiner explained that being on the wrong side of the drag curve was the main cause of most PPL accidents and I could really see why!
The problem for me was the temptation to pull back when the nose drops, absolute disaster when approaching the stall!
I have a lot more work to do on this side of things and It looks like it's well needed in light of recent accidents. The news has hit me quite hard as my own first solo is only a few weeks from now.
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Personally, when landing a helicopter I transfer my view to fairly close by, it let's me judge any movement more accurately. Horses for courses.
I certainly wouldn't be staring at a ribbon if doing something like a pick up., I would be "looking through it". The problem when you are staring at an object is that you generally tend to hit it. Try it in a car or on a bike. If you stare at the kerb in a corner, then you'll go to it, whereas if you look through the corner to where you want to go, then that is what'll happen and it's a lot smoother.
I certainly wouldn't be staring at a ribbon if doing something like a pick up., I would be "looking through it". The problem when you are staring at an object is that you generally tend to hit it. Try it in a car or on a bike. If you stare at the kerb in a corner, then you'll go to it, whereas if you look through the corner to where you want to go, then that is what'll happen and it's a lot smoother.
The Original Whirly
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..so lets think about landing a helicopter on a very small pad, do we look way out in the distance to judge our position, height, and velocity for touch down on the pad?
I learned to land nosewheel aircraft by looking well ahead. It worked for me, and prevented that ground rush that's so scary for beginners. Now I just.....land. Not sure how I do it, where I look, or whether I use power for speed or height or all that stuff; I just fly it on to the ground. I've only had a couple of lessons in tailwheel aircraft, but I can see that looking well ahead wouldn't work, especially for someone my height; once I flare, all I can see ahead is the nose!
So there are ways to learn how to do things, and ways you do them when you're reasonably proficient, and maybe they're two different things. I'd appreciate your views on that, Chuck, since I think you've probably more instructing hours than I'll get if I carry on till I'm 100.
Unfortunately I'm off flying in France tomorrow for a few days, and probably won't be able to carry on this interesting discussion.
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Hi Whirley, hows things going for you these days.
You notice I post here on a random basis, that is because I usually don't have the time avaliable to be a regular.
For the purpose of this discussion regarding where to look when landing any flying device it is not black magic, you only need to get the picture that will best allow you to smoothly control the rate of decent and change your flight path so as to arrive at the desided touch down point in the best attitude for the device you are in at the moment.....
..and looking way into the far distance is not the best method to use...
..lets look at another senario....you are rolling out of a steep turn at low altitude in a flying device applying chemicals to a farm field ( I think its called Aerial application ) You are in a relatively steep nose down attitude having just passed a tree line and you want to flare as close to the start of the field as possible and be two feet above the crop. to start your application run.
How long would you live if you looked a mile ahead to judge your height for the flare?
Chuck E.
You notice I post here on a random basis, that is because I usually don't have the time avaliable to be a regular.
For the purpose of this discussion regarding where to look when landing any flying device it is not black magic, you only need to get the picture that will best allow you to smoothly control the rate of decent and change your flight path so as to arrive at the desided touch down point in the best attitude for the device you are in at the moment.....
..and looking way into the far distance is not the best method to use...
..lets look at another senario....you are rolling out of a steep turn at low altitude in a flying device applying chemicals to a farm field ( I think its called Aerial application ) You are in a relatively steep nose down attitude having just passed a tree line and you want to flare as close to the start of the field as possible and be two feet above the crop. to start your application run.
How long would you live if you looked a mile ahead to judge your height for the flare?
Chuck E.
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When learning landings as a student I had a lot of trouble estimating height above ground on flare and hold off.
Was told imagine a double decker bus,imagine a first floor bedroom window,none of which clicked for me.
Then some wise old bird told me to sit in the aircraft on the ground for a while,peer around and see exactly what it looks like.
This really helped me in my early landings period.
Doesn't always guarantee perfect landings though(could this be me?)
Lister
Was told imagine a double decker bus,imagine a first floor bedroom window,none of which clicked for me.
Then some wise old bird told me to sit in the aircraft on the ground for a while,peer around and see exactly what it looks like.
This really helped me in my early landings period.
Doesn't always guarantee perfect landings though(could this be me?)
Lister
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I'm with Chuck on this one,
Even as I sit here trying to analyse where or what I'm looking at when I flare, I can't actually figure it out? I certainly don't gaze at the far end of the runway, never have! In fact, as I've often flown from fields with no actual runway there is no discernable runway edges to use in perhperial vision, and often just a crop line in the distance ... but it makes no difference to my landings (wish it did, perhaps they'd improve?). I remember the old "double decker bus" thing from gliding, but again, I've never thought that either. I'm kind of used to judging distances in the "up to 50 foot" region as a farmer using wide or long farm impliments and when I worked with my father as a proffessional fisherman, bringing a boat up to a bouy to haul lobster pots. I just "know" those distances. I'm sure I'm not unique, I think once most people have got their eye in, there's simply no science to it .... just good old human judgement!
SS
Even as I sit here trying to analyse where or what I'm looking at when I flare, I can't actually figure it out? I certainly don't gaze at the far end of the runway, never have! In fact, as I've often flown from fields with no actual runway there is no discernable runway edges to use in perhperial vision, and often just a crop line in the distance ... but it makes no difference to my landings (wish it did, perhaps they'd improve?). I remember the old "double decker bus" thing from gliding, but again, I've never thought that either. I'm kind of used to judging distances in the "up to 50 foot" region as a farmer using wide or long farm impliments and when I worked with my father as a proffessional fisherman, bringing a boat up to a bouy to haul lobster pots. I just "know" those distances. I'm sure I'm not unique, I think once most people have got their eye in, there's simply no science to it .... just good old human judgement!
SS
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Yeh shortstripper it ain't black magic.
I use a very simple method to teach height judgement skills to pilots.
First explain it on the ground
Second I fly the airplane and verbally tell the student what I am looking at and have them look at the same area....and also make sure they are printing the picture in their minds.
Then I have them repeat what I just showed them.
I use a video camera to record these lessons and the video is our debreifing tool...if they have fu.ked up an approach , flare or touch down I stop the video and ask them where they were looking and what they thought they saw...
Works every time and all my students can judge their approaches and are sure of their height above the runway.
Chuck E.
I use a very simple method to teach height judgement skills to pilots.
First explain it on the ground
Second I fly the airplane and verbally tell the student what I am looking at and have them look at the same area....and also make sure they are printing the picture in their minds.
Then I have them repeat what I just showed them.
I use a video camera to record these lessons and the video is our debreifing tool...if they have fu.ked up an approach , flare or touch down I stop the video and ask them where they were looking and what they thought they saw...
Works every time and all my students can judge their approaches and are sure of their height above the runway.
Chuck E.
