Learning to fly in the USA
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Learning to fly in the USA
I'll start by saying that I'm a flying instructor who spends most of his time training PPL students in the UK. I've spent this afternoon flying with a lovely chap who "learnt" (I use the term loosely) to fly in Florida. Over the years I've flown with umpty gazillion graduates of the school that this chap attended. With regards to these students I can safely say that from my own experience very few of them had achieved the same level of competency that they would have had they learnt at a half decent UK school/club.
The above isn't exactly news, and there have already been numerous threads regarding the topic. As an instructor I find it extremely frustrating to keep on coming across students who have wandered off to the US to gain a cheaper PPL, with little regard for the end result. I realise that I am generalising at this point. I'm sure that there are probably any number of good US schools out there.
Anyway, my reason for writing is that I had a look at this chaps logbook and (as per normal) found that his training hadn't followed the standard syllabus. This helped to partly explain why he was struggling. He hadn't been taught the basics. For those of you that have learnt to fly in the UK you will hopefully know that generally Lesson 1= Effects of Controls, Lesson 2= Straight+Level, Lesson 3= Climbing/ Descending/ Turning, Lesson 4= Stalling. After four lessons we've still not got as far as landings. What we do have though is a good grasp of the basics. According to this chaps logbook; by his fourth lesson he had covered all of the above, plus landing, spinning, instrument flying, advanced turns, and practice forced landings...??!!
This appears to be the norm in the US. Am I wrong? Has anyone learnt to fly at one of these intensive Florida PPL schools and found it to have prepared them for flying once they return to the UK? This is of course a very tricky question as most people don't have experience of courses based in both countries.
Apologies for the long winded rant. I just think that it's a shame that so many potential PPL's travel so far to receive what I believe to be below standard instruction.
PS. I've previously worked in the US and so have first hand knowledge of the topic.
The above isn't exactly news, and there have already been numerous threads regarding the topic. As an instructor I find it extremely frustrating to keep on coming across students who have wandered off to the US to gain a cheaper PPL, with little regard for the end result. I realise that I am generalising at this point. I'm sure that there are probably any number of good US schools out there.
Anyway, my reason for writing is that I had a look at this chaps logbook and (as per normal) found that his training hadn't followed the standard syllabus. This helped to partly explain why he was struggling. He hadn't been taught the basics. For those of you that have learnt to fly in the UK you will hopefully know that generally Lesson 1= Effects of Controls, Lesson 2= Straight+Level, Lesson 3= Climbing/ Descending/ Turning, Lesson 4= Stalling. After four lessons we've still not got as far as landings. What we do have though is a good grasp of the basics. According to this chaps logbook; by his fourth lesson he had covered all of the above, plus landing, spinning, instrument flying, advanced turns, and practice forced landings...??!!
This appears to be the norm in the US. Am I wrong? Has anyone learnt to fly at one of these intensive Florida PPL schools and found it to have prepared them for flying once they return to the UK? This is of course a very tricky question as most people don't have experience of courses based in both countries.
Apologies for the long winded rant. I just think that it's a shame that so many potential PPL's travel so far to receive what I believe to be below standard instruction.
PS. I've previously worked in the US and so have first hand knowledge of the topic.
Last edited by Esperanza; 13th Jul 2006 at 21:02.
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yep, i attended one of "those schools" you mention, passed first time and came back, had a 1 hour checkride with an experienced UK instructor and was signed off straightaway and he said I was a good pilot and well taught, I keep saying this but I don't believe you can pigeonhole people by where they trained, surely its more down to the individual.
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Esperanza,
I take it that you intend reporting the shortcomings of these 'umpty gazillion' to the CAA then?
If you care to wander through some of my aviation related offerings you will see quite clearly where I learned to fly, where I fly from now, and where I've flown from in the past.
Tell you what, I notice on one of your threads that you instruct in the 'North' I know that can be a big area but how about I come and meet you and we can fly together, and then you can pass on your professional opinion face to face?
I've flown with umpty gazillion graduates of the school that this chap attended. With regards to these students I can safely say that from my own experience none of them had achieved the same level of competency that they would have had they learnt at a half decent UK school/club.
If you care to wander through some of my aviation related offerings you will see quite clearly where I learned to fly, where I fly from now, and where I've flown from in the past.
Tell you what, I notice on one of your threads that you instruct in the 'North' I know that can be a big area but how about I come and meet you and we can fly together, and then you can pass on your professional opinion face to face?
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Hi Mcgoo, It's good to hear that I was indeed "generalising". You're right in what you say about the end result achieved being largely down to the individual. Hopefully you're not the exception to the norm. All that I know is that I've come across an awful lot of poorly (US) trained PPL holders.
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Blimey Paris Dakar, I'm sensing a lot of aggression. My apologies to you and any other pilots who have taken offence at my ramblings. I was simply passing on an observation that I've made, based on years of experience.
I originally learnt to fly in the US and so know that there are both upsides and downsides to training abroad.
That's enough from me.
I originally learnt to fly in the US and so know that there are both upsides and downsides to training abroad.
That's enough from me.
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Esperanza,
Aggression
??
I am serious, If you are really concerned that there is a lack of basic skills being taught, then I would presume that as an Instructor you would have an obligation to report such findings?
My offer was to have a flight with you - not to fight with you?
Aggression
??I am serious, If you are really concerned that there is a lack of basic skills being taught, then I would presume that as an Instructor you would have an obligation to report such findings?
My offer was to have a flight with you - not to fight with you?
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Hi Esperanza
Having flown in both countries’ I can sadly say that some of the worst flying I have personally seen was in the UK by UK pilots trained in the UK! Anyone who flew into the AeroExpo the other week can confirm this! Some of the Airmanship, flying skills, RT and general procedure following were absolutely abysmal.
I think it’s more down to poor training...if the students had gone to a better school in the US they would be better pilots. There are some awful schools in the UK but they don’t churn out anywhere near the amount of PPL's as the certain schools in Florida your talking about.(I know which ones you mean
).
Having flown in both countries’ I can sadly say that some of the worst flying I have personally seen was in the UK by UK pilots trained in the UK! Anyone who flew into the AeroExpo the other week can confirm this! Some of the Airmanship, flying skills, RT and general procedure following were absolutely abysmal.
I think it’s more down to poor training...if the students had gone to a better school in the US they would be better pilots. There are some awful schools in the UK but they don’t churn out anywhere near the amount of PPL's as the certain schools in Florida your talking about.(I know which ones you mean
).
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mcgoo,
I'm sure that is the case too.
But if umpty gazillion students are going the US route - then that begs the question why? If on their return, umpty gazillion are so poorly taught that they need re-training then I would presume the schools based here will be more than happy to sell them the additional hours they feel they need.
I think it would be a safe bet to say that there are quite a few poorly trained UK students as well.
But if umpty gazillion students are going the US route - then that begs the question why? If on their return, umpty gazillion are so poorly taught that they need re-training then I would presume the schools based here will be more than happy to sell them the additional hours they feel they need.
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learning to fly in the US
frankly i believe most of these flight schools in florida cut corners just to get done with you as quickly as possible but Hey, that's not a general rule! we have reputable schools over there too. i think it's more on the individaul, some people have just got the instincts of a pilot right from childhood, they get it right naturally. now even if you train these calabre of people at the worsrt flight schools they'l still come out ace students (pilots).
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not necessarily, look at some drivers on the roads, sure they have a license and may have been driving years but they have no co-ordination, no spatial awareness, lack of judgement, i agree nobody can be a natural pilot but some people are better than others with innate skills that can't be learnt
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Esperanza ,
heres an offer for you, I learnt to fly in florida last year, I passed my skills test in november, and my last flight was on the 2nd of december. Due to work commitments I have been out of the country for 6 months, so I am badly in need of a few hours and a bit of refresher training, so how do you fancy going up for a few hours and making an honest appraisal of how I fly, I would be very interested in your views Where do you fly from normaly? I live near wolverhampton, so bobbington is my local airport 
heres an offer for you, I learnt to fly in florida last year, I passed my skills test in november, and my last flight was on the 2nd of december. Due to work commitments I have been out of the country for 6 months, so I am badly in need of a few hours and a bit of refresher training, so how do you fancy going up for a few hours and making an honest appraisal of how I fly, I would be very interested in your views
Where do you fly from normaly? I live near wolverhampton, so bobbington is my local airport
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I have a UK PPL, was flying in UK during the 90's and two years ago went to SW Florida to take the FAA PPL. After completing it in 4~5 days (incl ground exams) I continued for the IR which took me another 3 weeks.
Of course I did not do the full training course (Part61 using previous experience) but I can attest that the procedures were not sub standard. Perhaps because the school is owned partly by Brit's (
) the training was better quality. The big difference I found from UK was the traffic levels and the intensity of R/T. That alone necessitated more sharpness while airborne. In UK I had never experienced such level of traffic & R/T. Also in the US the ATC trusts (even VFR's) that you will do what they ask you to and therefore they dare to do many more things than our conservative European folks.
I had never been in a circuit with 6 light aircaft at the same time while the seventh was a private jet on short finals
This alone increases the workload & sharpness in the US flying pilot and in the end provides a better experience for the PPL returning to Europe. On the other hand in US if you betray this trust and you f*ck up in the air (I & my instructor did as well during a session ) you are prone to get in trouble after landing much more than in Europe.
So to conclude, perhaps its not the training they do that is completelly up to UK standard but flying in US needs more essential skills of situational awareness when you get in busy airspace areas. That alone may, I say again, may, have an end result of a newbie pilot coming out much better in essential flying skills (the absence of which have killed people) than theoretical or "by the book" operations (the absence of which have not killed people but made their life difficult).
I hope you catch my drift
Of course I did not do the full training course (Part61 using previous experience) but I can attest that the procedures were not sub standard. Perhaps because the school is owned partly by Brit's (
) the training was better quality. The big difference I found from UK was the traffic levels and the intensity of R/T. That alone necessitated more sharpness while airborne. In UK I had never experienced such level of traffic & R/T. Also in the US the ATC trusts (even VFR's) that you will do what they ask you to and therefore they dare to do many more things than our conservative European folks. I had never been in a circuit with 6 light aircaft at the same time while the seventh was a private jet on short finals
This alone increases the workload & sharpness in the US flying pilot and in the end provides a better experience for the PPL returning to Europe. On the other hand in US if you betray this trust and you f*ck up in the air (I & my instructor did as well during a session
) you are prone to get in trouble after landing much more than in Europe.So to conclude, perhaps its not the training they do that is completelly up to UK standard but flying in US needs more essential skills of situational awareness when you get in busy airspace areas. That alone may, I say again, may, have an end result of a newbie pilot coming out much better in essential flying skills (the absence of which have killed people) than theoretical or "by the book" operations (the absence of which have not killed people but made their life difficult).
I hope you catch my drift
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This is of course a very tricky question as most people don't have experience of courses based in both countries.
Apologies for the long winded rant. I just think that it's a shame that so many potential PPL's travel so far to receive what I believe to be below standard instruction.
I have trained in both countries and have good experience of both training systems so feel qualified to comment. I believe that most UK instructors who have no US experience have a "mindset" about what they are looking for (someone who does things the way that they do them), when they don't see things done their way they label the performance as "wrong"...there are numerous minor examples based on actual differences in technique and training. I have seen good students and bad students from both systems.
What I would say is did you see the recent shuttle launch.....terrible airmanship they left the carb heat on all the way into space.....typical example of poorly trained american pilots (yes I am being ironic !)
Chief difference is in attitude
American system is positive and confident - just get on with it you'll be OK !
UK system is negative and pedantic - watch it you might screw up !
Apologies for the long winded rant. I just think that it's a shame that so many potential PPL's travel so far to receive what I believe to be below standard instruction.
I have trained in both countries and have good experience of both training systems so feel qualified to comment. I believe that most UK instructors who have no US experience have a "mindset" about what they are looking for (someone who does things the way that they do them), when they don't see things done their way they label the performance as "wrong"...there are numerous minor examples based on actual differences in technique and training. I have seen good students and bad students from both systems.
What I would say is did you see the recent shuttle launch.....terrible airmanship they left the carb heat on all the way into space.....typical example of poorly trained american pilots (yes I am being ironic !)
Chief difference is in attitude
American system is positive and confident - just get on with it you'll be OK !
UK system is negative and pedantic - watch it you might screw up !
Blah Blah Blah
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Originally Posted by mcgoo
yep, i attended one of "those schools" you mention, passed first time and came back, had a 1 hour checkride with an experienced UK instructor and was signed off straightaway and he said I was a good pilot and well taught, I keep saying this but I don't believe you can pigeonhole people by where they trained, surely its more down to the individual.
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Perhaps the reason why the UK trained pilots are considered "better" is for a simple reason. They have been over trained. In the UK you are lucky to get 1 flight a week but more than likely 1 every 2-3 weeks. So next lesson you spend half of it going over what you learnt before as you have forgotten it. End result is the 45 hours is no longer a legal requirement but a target with most schools going over this. I did my IMC a few years back and they were more than happy to tell me over a few pints that their students on average took 55-60 hours to get through and that they didn't feel that the 45 hours was enough to train them. Well that will be news to the CAA then.
The best form of training includes continuity and unfortunately you just can't get that here in the UK unless you are very lucky and have a school committed to pushing you through during summer and bending over backwards. This hardly ever happens.
Being frank no planes that I am aware of are falling out of the sky as people have been trained in the US. So long as they are legal and safe then who really cares if they lose a bit of height here and are off heading there. It all takes practice and you can't expect much from someone with such few hours under their belts.
The best form of training includes continuity and unfortunately you just can't get that here in the UK unless you are very lucky and have a school committed to pushing you through during summer and bending over backwards. This hardly ever happens.
Being frank no planes that I am aware of are falling out of the sky as people have been trained in the US. So long as they are legal and safe then who really cares if they lose a bit of height here and are off heading there. It all takes practice and you can't expect much from someone with such few hours under their belts.
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Learned at one of those intensive schools in Florida. Just checked my logbook which reveals the following, for each flight:
1. General handling 0:50
2. General handling + turns 1:00
3. General handling + steep turns 1:05
4. General handling + stalls 1:00
5. General handling + stalls + PFLs 0:55
6. Circuits 0:55
and so it goes on. Pretty much in line with the suggestions of the OP, I think. I came back, did an hour or two with an instructor as a checkout and to get familiar with the local area, and that was that. Ten years ago now, mind you, but still flying despite all the mandatory and obligatory instructor encounters since!
Andy
1. General handling 0:50
2. General handling + turns 1:00
3. General handling + steep turns 1:05
4. General handling + stalls 1:00
5. General handling + stalls + PFLs 0:55
6. Circuits 0:55
and so it goes on. Pretty much in line with the suggestions of the OP, I think. I came back, did an hour or two with an instructor as a checkout and to get familiar with the local area, and that was that. Ten years ago now, mind you, but still flying despite all the mandatory and obligatory instructor encounters since!
Andy
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I did my PPL training in the USA (Pennsylvania though) and found the training pretty much "standard" as you describe. Took at least 10 hours to cover all the basics and I solo'd after 20 hours. Didn't touch anything more complicated until I had mastered the basics. I was still regarded as a very fast learner, I passed my checkride with 46.5 hours logged.