When to introduce radio usage to PPL course.
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R/T is one of those things that can really dent confidence or build it.
There are a few things that leave a lasting impression on students, one is that no matter how the lesson went, if the landing is good, then the student goes away happy. If it's rubbish then a good lesson can be coloured.
Radio work is obviously important, but I prefer to ease people into it so that they don't put R/T too high on the priority list.
The old phrase "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is important, so I prefer my students to get to grips with the flying side before distracting them with (seemingly) complex radio procedures.
It is however dependant on the individual, if they have the available capacity, then I'll push them a bit harder and get them to use the radio from very early on.
I like to brief about it early and always get the student to try and preempt any calls to try and build up their situational awareness and confidence, afterall using the radio is all about confidence, more so than many other parts of flying.
There are a few things that leave a lasting impression on students, one is that no matter how the lesson went, if the landing is good, then the student goes away happy. If it's rubbish then a good lesson can be coloured.
Radio work is obviously important, but I prefer to ease people into it so that they don't put R/T too high on the priority list.
The old phrase "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is important, so I prefer my students to get to grips with the flying side before distracting them with (seemingly) complex radio procedures.
It is however dependant on the individual, if they have the available capacity, then I'll push them a bit harder and get them to use the radio from very early on.
I like to brief about it early and always get the student to try and preempt any calls to try and build up their situational awareness and confidence, afterall using the radio is all about confidence, more so than many other parts of flying.
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Radio training
Whirly,
I agree totally with Flying for Fun, with the addition that learning to speak on radio in the aeroplane should go hand in hand with ground training in radiotelephony in a proper, simulated radio setup with an instructor.
There are three reasons for this:-
1. The student will have to take the radiotelephony licence exams sooner or later, and the sooner he/she acquires radio skills the better for getting through the R/T exams (especially the practical).
2. Once you have your radio skills, the remaining tasks involved in getting to Flying Skilltest standard become that much easier.
3. It is much easier to learn to compose, interpret and write down radio calls in a quiet radio training room when you aren't spending £2 per minute.
I learned to fly in 1960 in a totally non-radio environment. I then had a break of forty years when I didn't fly at all, after which I made a return to flying. On my return, I was truly taken aback by the increased workload imposed just by radio alone.
This task was exacerbated by the fact that no two aeroplanes I climbed into had the same radio fit. I ended up fumbling with unfamiliar knobs on each one.
I would go so far as to say that (ground studies apart) learning radio is fully half of the task of learning to fly.
Best regards,
Broomstick.
I agree totally with Flying for Fun, with the addition that learning to speak on radio in the aeroplane should go hand in hand with ground training in radiotelephony in a proper, simulated radio setup with an instructor.
There are three reasons for this:-
1. The student will have to take the radiotelephony licence exams sooner or later, and the sooner he/she acquires radio skills the better for getting through the R/T exams (especially the practical).
2. Once you have your radio skills, the remaining tasks involved in getting to Flying Skilltest standard become that much easier.
3. It is much easier to learn to compose, interpret and write down radio calls in a quiet radio training room when you aren't spending £2 per minute.
I learned to fly in 1960 in a totally non-radio environment. I then had a break of forty years when I didn't fly at all, after which I made a return to flying. On my return, I was truly taken aback by the increased workload imposed just by radio alone.
This task was exacerbated by the fact that no two aeroplanes I climbed into had the same radio fit. I ended up fumbling with unfamiliar knobs on each one.
I would go so far as to say that (ground studies apart) learning radio is fully half of the task of learning to fly.
Best regards,
Broomstick.
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From day 1.
You may as well get used to it from early on, it doesn't matter if the student makes mistakes, these are easily corrected by the instructor.
First day out I had to talk to Clearance delivery, ground and tower........
You may as well get used to it from early on, it doesn't matter if the student makes mistakes, these are easily corrected by the instructor.
First day out I had to talk to Clearance delivery, ground and tower........
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When I was learning using the radio was one of the best parts - I was despirate to use it during the t/l nevermind anything else - but that came from years of listening to scanners and using VATSIM!
When I started the PPL course, I started using the radio from day one - initially just to call a/g for radio check and information. The a/d I learned from was well used to student pilots - and hey, may as well start at the start! Scottish Information was also very helpful - and well used to students learning.
Next step when actually up flying was just to call the station - and then let the instructor reply when they came back to us - gradually working up to asking for zone entry and FIS.
I know a lot of people have a real fear of the radio - and come x-country time the radio becomes the main thing holding them back. Start at the start and gradually build it up.
When I started the PPL course, I started using the radio from day one - initially just to call a/g for radio check and information. The a/d I learned from was well used to student pilots - and hey, may as well start at the start! Scottish Information was also very helpful - and well used to students learning.
Next step when actually up flying was just to call the station - and then let the instructor reply when they came back to us - gradually working up to asking for zone entry and FIS.
I know a lot of people have a real fear of the radio - and come x-country time the radio becomes the main thing holding them back. Start at the start and gradually build it up.
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I found having a quick ref guide, laminated so I could ammend it in flight, with a typical script on it. Radio check and Taxi, Departure clearance, etc. As the instructor you get time to fill in things like Runway in Use and QFE/QNH.
And then just let the stude read from a script, right from the start.
BUT, as all good instructors know: what works for one wont work for another. This technique has helped many of my students.
However, every now and then the controller will throw something in, even you weren't expecting!!!
This generally builds the confidence, so I stop writing in the details so they have to remember the QNH/rnwy/HDG etc but still let them use the script as a guide filling in the blanks themselves.
It's also a tried and tested method. I got the idea from my g/f who's an ATCO. Apparently thats how they start at the college, using a script!
One other thing I always do is take them to meet controllers. It makes such a difference if they can put a face to a voice, even if it's the wrong face!
Give it a go....if it works for you I'd like to hear about it!
And then just let the stude read from a script, right from the start.
BUT, as all good instructors know: what works for one wont work for another. This technique has helped many of my students.
However, every now and then the controller will throw something in, even you weren't expecting!!!
This generally builds the confidence, so I stop writing in the details so they have to remember the QNH/rnwy/HDG etc but still let them use the script as a guide filling in the blanks themselves.
It's also a tried and tested method. I got the idea from my g/f who's an ATCO. Apparently thats how they start at the college, using a script!
One other thing I always do is take them to meet controllers. It makes such a difference if they can put a face to a voice, even if it's the wrong face!
Give it a go....if it works for you I'd like to hear about it!
Last edited by Nimrod615; 13th Jul 2006 at 13:46.
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One answer is to do all the early R/T practice on the ground.We used to have a couple of headsets, two switches and an old radio as an amplifier, and the student could practice R/T with an instructor or with another student. Saves a lot of embarrasment on the radio and particularly valuable for practising Matz penetration, controlled airspace and emergency calls.
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RT
I think it is important to start using RT early on but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the aircraft. As previously mentioned it does depend on the individual student. For example, the student can arrive say an hour early for their lesson and just sit and listen to the transmissions on the local RT frequency. What the student hears can then be discussed with the instructor and applied to the following lesson in the air. RT transmissions can be practiced on the ground, and then moving on, the instructor can ask the student what needs to be said to ATC in the air and then after receiving the response ask what the student heard.
The student can then move on to transmitting him or herself, starting with the easier requests, e.g. taxi, moving up to the slightly longer requests such as MATZ penetration.
The important factor is confidence, slowly getting the student used to RT. I remember learning, and on one occasion my instructor told me what to say to the TWR to obtain taxi instructions to which I remembered half and simply quoted the registration and 'request taxi north' He burst into laughter and made me feel real confident!!
The student can then move on to transmitting him or herself, starting with the easier requests, e.g. taxi, moving up to the slightly longer requests such as MATZ penetration.
The important factor is confidence, slowly getting the student used to RT. I remember learning, and on one occasion my instructor told me what to say to the TWR to obtain taxi instructions to which I remembered half and simply quoted the registration and 'request taxi north' He burst into laughter and made me feel real confident!!
Red On, Green On
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I suggest that the instructor has to judge when the stude is ready to accept the load. For some it's after 30 mins, for others it's longer. Most will see it as a really fun part of the overall package, and want to get on with it asap. Most people who want to fly dream of being able to sit there talking to the tower like a pro. I know I did!
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Broomstick's comment:
sums it up for me - not only should using the radio start as early as possible, but CORRECT use of the radio should be started as soon as possible. And that is best done on the ground (as others have said), with CAP413 and whatever aids are available to the FTC and the student.
SD
to speak on radio in the aeroplane should go hand in hand with ground training
SD
Hovering AND talking
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If they can drive and talk on their mobile then they can use the radio
After that I was very wary of using my mobile whilst driving!Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
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[QUOTE]My staggering loss of mental capacity when I first tried to hover and talk made me realise (and I didn't think this was possible as a woman) that I did use some brain power in talking After that I was very wary of using my mobile whilst driving!
[QUOTE]
Now Whirls, I'm sure you've been driving long enough to be able to cope with using your mobile too. Especially since you're a woman AND a helicopter pilot. After all, you've developed spare capacity since those days. So have I. I never thought I'd be able to talk non-stop through an autorotation and control the RRPM and make sure the student doesn't kill us....but I seem to be managing it.
But seriously, this is the crux of the matter. And maybe rotary flying IS different from f/w. On the first few lessons, my students are usually concentrating 110%. I sometimes realise it's time to stop, even if we haven't done a full hour, when someone literally doesn't hear what I say, or pushes the controls in the wrong direction after they've been doing it right for a while. Classic symptoms of overload. Now, if I add in the radio - just the simple calls on the apron, and to say we're returning to the field, for instance - will that be too much? Or is it different enough that it's not a problem? I can't remember from my own experience! What do you think?
[QUOTE]
Now Whirls, I'm sure you've been driving long enough to be able to cope with using your mobile too. Especially since you're a woman AND a helicopter pilot. After all, you've developed spare capacity since those days. So have I. I never thought I'd be able to talk non-stop through an autorotation and control the RRPM and make sure the student doesn't kill us....but I seem to be managing it.
But seriously, this is the crux of the matter. And maybe rotary flying IS different from f/w. On the first few lessons, my students are usually concentrating 110%. I sometimes realise it's time to stop, even if we haven't done a full hour, when someone literally doesn't hear what I say, or pushes the controls in the wrong direction after they've been doing it right for a while. Classic symptoms of overload. Now, if I add in the radio - just the simple calls on the apron, and to say we're returning to the field, for instance - will that be too much? Or is it different enough that it's not a problem? I can't remember from my own experience! What do you think?
I think that my experiences are a bit different to a lot of the posters above, except maybe Broomstick Pilot.
I learned initially in a very radio-intense environment (actually just plain intense, along with a fairly sadistic RAF QFI who hated students). I couldn't cope, and as a result failed by UAS course.
Determined to learn to fly whatever, I went and paid for lessons in an environment which was (not planned that way, just happened) totally non-radio. I found the deletion of the radio requirement very helpful, and did a lot of help break down my loss of confidence with the RAF, and turn me into a half-decent student pilot.
I *then* had to change school (work moved me to the other end of the country, not anything wrong with the school), to one where radio use was mandatory. Having previously soloed in a non-radio environment, I'd got through the barrier of learning the basic piloting skills, and then had spare capacity to learn to use radio as well. This helped a lot.
However, realistically most people can't do this - the majority of students will rarely have the opportunity to fly in a totally non-radio environment, let alone get to first solo without having to talk to anybody. Nonetheless, I think personally that there's a lot to be said for allowing a student pilot to crack the basic handling skills of the aeroplane, and then introducing radio after that: this certainly worked well for me.
G
I learned initially in a very radio-intense environment (actually just plain intense, along with a fairly sadistic RAF QFI who hated students). I couldn't cope, and as a result failed by UAS course.
Determined to learn to fly whatever, I went and paid for lessons in an environment which was (not planned that way, just happened) totally non-radio. I found the deletion of the radio requirement very helpful, and did a lot of help break down my loss of confidence with the RAF, and turn me into a half-decent student pilot.
I *then* had to change school (work moved me to the other end of the country, not anything wrong with the school), to one where radio use was mandatory. Having previously soloed in a non-radio environment, I'd got through the barrier of learning the basic piloting skills, and then had spare capacity to learn to use radio as well. This helped a lot.
However, realistically most people can't do this - the majority of students will rarely have the opportunity to fly in a totally non-radio environment, let alone get to first solo without having to talk to anybody. Nonetheless, I think personally that there's a lot to be said for allowing a student pilot to crack the basic handling skills of the aeroplane, and then introducing radio after that: this certainly worked well for me.
G
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Whirley:
The use of radio has to be secondary to the control of the aircraft.
There fore one must dovetail radio learning into the lessons based on the capacity of any given student to perform the two tasks at once...it will vary wildly from student to student and even lesson to lesson.
The helicopter not only introduces a pilot to a demension that we as humans were not designed to do ( flight ) the G.d Damned things will fly standing still which adds another demension to the getting used to it.....
Remember the trouble you had the first few times you tried to hover? The concentration is so intense that if someone hit you over the head with a hammer you wouldn't notice..........then all of a sudden bingo, you got the picture and the feel and you can hover...
The problem you were having was overconcentration and muscle tensing caused by anxiety and the inability to understand why the thing was wandering all over the countryside despite the effort you were putting into keeping it stable and fixed in one spot over the ground.
So after all this rambling I would suggest you tailor the radio work into the lessons based on the stress level of each individual student so as to ensure they are not overloaded.
How much is the fine for driving your car and using the mobile these days?
And I refuse to believe that any woman can not talk and do something else at the same time....
Chuck E.
The use of radio has to be secondary to the control of the aircraft.
There fore one must dovetail radio learning into the lessons based on the capacity of any given student to perform the two tasks at once...it will vary wildly from student to student and even lesson to lesson.
The helicopter not only introduces a pilot to a demension that we as humans were not designed to do ( flight ) the G.d Damned things will fly standing still which adds another demension to the getting used to it.....
Remember the trouble you had the first few times you tried to hover? The concentration is so intense that if someone hit you over the head with a hammer you wouldn't notice..........then all of a sudden bingo, you got the picture and the feel and you can hover...
The problem you were having was overconcentration and muscle tensing caused by anxiety and the inability to understand why the thing was wandering all over the countryside despite the effort you were putting into keeping it stable and fixed in one spot over the ground.
So after all this rambling I would suggest you tailor the radio work into the lessons based on the stress level of each individual student so as to ensure they are not overloaded.
How much is the fine for driving your car and using the mobile these days?
And I refuse to believe that any woman can not talk and do something else at the same time....
Chuck E.
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Started using radio on second lesson. Crib sheet in cockpit for the regular calls. Has now become second nature and I was completely comfortable with communicating clearly long before first solo.
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Whirly,
My PPL(A) was completed many years back but I'd still like to contribute if I may...
Personally, I think the right time is when you [Whirly] think the student is ready for the introduction to it. I know that may sound a bit silly but I found that in order to get the basic flying bits right, the RT had to wait a couple of lessons - there was just too much for me to take in. It was the same when I learned to drive - I could steer without any problems at all but ask me to steer around a corner and then change gear, and all hell broke loose.
There will be students who will be happy to talk on the radio within minutes of first setting foot in a cockpit, and there will be Paris Dakar's (not too many, I'm sure) that need just that little bit of extra time.
My PPL(A) was completed many years back but I'd still like to contribute if I may...
Personally, I think the right time is when you [Whirly] think the student is ready for the introduction to it. I know that may sound a bit silly but I found that in order to get the basic flying bits right, the RT had to wait a couple of lessons - there was just too much for me to take in. It was the same when I learned to drive - I could steer without any problems at all but ask me to steer around a corner and then change gear, and all hell broke loose.
There will be students who will be happy to talk on the radio within minutes of first setting foot in a cockpit, and there will be Paris Dakar's (not too many, I'm sure) that need just that little bit of extra time.
niknak
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As an atco I would say that encouragement from day one is to be applauded.
When someone is learning I'll try and give them as much latitude as possible with the R/T, I'd rather they asked me to repeat something 3 times than bumble on not knowing what was going on.
Its just a personal thing (but echoed by many colleagues), encourage your students to spend some time in ATC, getting to know the people and what goes on on the other side of the microphone can be an enormous help.
When someone is learning I'll try and give them as much latitude as possible with the R/T, I'd rather they asked me to repeat something 3 times than bumble on not knowing what was going on.
Its just a personal thing (but echoed by many colleagues), encourage your students to spend some time in ATC, getting to know the people and what goes on on the other side of the microphone can be an enormous help.
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Whirly,
My two penneth worth having just completed my PPL(H) recently; my instructor introduced r/t by hour 7. I personally found that I had more than enough on my plate just trying to master the basic handling of the heli without the added pressure of RT, but I do appreciate that the earlier you can start the better it is. I made sure that I paid close attention to what my instructor was saying and asked him to explain any questions I had at during the debrief after each lesson so at least I felt as prepared as possible when I was told to have a go.
As to when to introduce RT to a new student's repitoire of skills, that has to be an instructor decision made on a student by student basis but with heli's it is a heavy enough workload for the new student just trying to master the basic handling skills without added pressures. All that being said a student needs to have a clear understanding of CCT r/t before that first solo !
S.
My two penneth worth having just completed my PPL(H) recently; my instructor introduced r/t by hour 7. I personally found that I had more than enough on my plate just trying to master the basic handling of the heli without the added pressure of RT, but I do appreciate that the earlier you can start the better it is. I made sure that I paid close attention to what my instructor was saying and asked him to explain any questions I had at during the debrief after each lesson so at least I felt as prepared as possible when I was told to have a go.
As to when to introduce RT to a new student's repitoire of skills, that has to be an instructor decision made on a student by student basis but with heli's it is a heavy enough workload for the new student just trying to master the basic handling skills without added pressures. All that being said a student needs to have a clear understanding of CCT r/t before that first solo !
S.