The UK GA scene - where is it now and where's it going???
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The UK GA scene - where is it now and where's it going???
I’m a newbie to flying so I’ve been reading everything on these forums with interest.
On reading “The Wizwheel, time to say good bye?”, the thread was partially high-jacked by IO540 commenting on the UK GA scene today.
My answers / opinion….
1 My flying club is actively trying to encourage change, nice friendly club atmosphere, all staff friendly and willing to give advice, support etc (laugh with/at me, cry with me), people bring the family, nice food, bar, barbecues, curry & quiz nights…...
2 Wouldn’t know, got one but don’t know how to work it yet. My experience… technology is great but isn’t it wonderful how easily we forget to do things the old way when “sods law” kicks in – it always does, and when we least expect it – I WILL be learning how to use it ‘cos I’m not that cocky yet.
3 But they are everywhere!!!! If you get involved in any activity there will be anoraks. Why should flying be an exception? I just avoid them – lots of other nice people to talk to who tolerate this newly obsessive little flyer.
4 Don’t know where you go flying, but my club’s got nice female flying instructors and what am I?? (not 20 yr old leggy blonds – but what makes you think you’re so special??).
Will it happen? No way. My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFRGA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity.
I’m still in the circuit, so haven’t seen the big wide world yet, so what’s it like?? Is my club the exception rather than the norm??
This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there, so perhaps you “old hacks” would care to rape and pillage, and open this innocents eyes. I’ll now step off my soapbox and let you carry on.
ps sorry about the bad formatting - I haven't got to grips with this quote button thingy yet
On reading “The Wizwheel, time to say good bye?”, the thread was partially high-jacked by IO540 commenting on the UK GA scene today.
Originally Posted by IO540
So, why do so many apparently good pilot candidates avoid GA? May I suggest a few factors:
Originally Posted by IO540
1. A desire to keep everything in the past
2. Outdated procedures (the circular slide rule is a really good example) when it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there are better ways
3. Anoraks everywhere (result of 1 2 4)
4. Lack of women (result of 3, mainly).
2. Outdated procedures (the circular slide rule is a really good example) when it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there are better ways
3. Anoraks everywhere (result of 1 2 4)
4. Lack of women (result of 3, mainly).
1 My flying club is actively trying to encourage change, nice friendly club atmosphere, all staff friendly and willing to give advice, support etc (laugh with/at me, cry with me), people bring the family, nice food, bar, barbecues, curry & quiz nights…...
2 Wouldn’t know, got one but don’t know how to work it yet. My experience… technology is great but isn’t it wonderful how easily we forget to do things the old way when “sods law” kicks in – it always does, and when we least expect it – I WILL be learning how to use it ‘cos I’m not that cocky yet.
3 But they are everywhere!!!! If you get involved in any activity there will be anoraks. Why should flying be an exception? I just avoid them – lots of other nice people to talk to who tolerate this newly obsessive little flyer.
4 Don’t know where you go flying, but my club’s got nice female flying instructors and what am I?? (not 20 yr old leggy blonds – but what makes you think you’re so special??).
Originally Posted by IO540
It's time to move on, ditch all this old rubbish and drag GA kicking and screaming into the 20th century.
Originally Posted by IO540
Will it happen? No way. My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFRGA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity.
This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there, so perhaps you “old hacks” would care to rape and pillage, and open this innocents eyes. I’ll now step off my soapbox and let you carry on.
ps sorry about the bad formatting - I haven't got to grips with this quote button thingy yet
Last edited by Mad Girl; 13th Jun 2006 at 08:31.
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Madgirl I am sure your club is great and good on you for getting stuck in and enjoying your PPL. Having read many of IO540's posts I would tend to think that he is mainly fed up with GA as a whole and in particular the way it is regulated in a backward facing sense.
Once you have your licence and a few hours under your belt you to will come to see how things could be run so much better. Ask your school how many people drop out of flying within a year of getting their licences and that should be enough to give you a flavour for the problem that is facing the industry as a whole.
If you get a chance once you have your PPL try and do some flying in the US and you will see just how straight forward it can be. GPS approaches, no landing fees, full ATC services, nav aids galore to get you from A to B, swipe card fuel pumps at unmanned airports...the list goes on. Oh and did I mention it is half the price? Thats why so many of us that are heading down the commercial route get out of the flying club scene as soon as we can.
For people that want to fly recreationally though there is little for them to aim for once they have the ppl. The IMC is great but falls short of the IR in so many respects. I know the CAA have plans to change this but it has been years in the waiting and we are still not sure what this will involve. For keen GA flyers who wanted to advance their flying there really wasn't much for them to progress to unless they had a years spare time to sit the ATPL ground school which was pure overkill for their purposes.
Then there are the costs at flying at a club....I could go on for hours about this but ask yourself if paying £120 an hour for a 20-30 year old aircraft with a VOR (maybe 2), couple of old radios, no autopilot, tatty seats, coffee spills etc is considered value for money. If you only intend to do a few hours here and there then you can kind of substantiate the cost but what if you wanted to do 100-150hours per year and keep yourself nice and current which of course is what you need in an ideal world to be on top of things. So in this scenario you are looking more towards groups which can open an entire can of worms for the newbie.
Anyway there are some thoughts to get the ball rolling. Give it heaps on the PPL.
Once you have your licence and a few hours under your belt you to will come to see how things could be run so much better. Ask your school how many people drop out of flying within a year of getting their licences and that should be enough to give you a flavour for the problem that is facing the industry as a whole.
If you get a chance once you have your PPL try and do some flying in the US and you will see just how straight forward it can be. GPS approaches, no landing fees, full ATC services, nav aids galore to get you from A to B, swipe card fuel pumps at unmanned airports...the list goes on. Oh and did I mention it is half the price? Thats why so many of us that are heading down the commercial route get out of the flying club scene as soon as we can.
For people that want to fly recreationally though there is little for them to aim for once they have the ppl. The IMC is great but falls short of the IR in so many respects. I know the CAA have plans to change this but it has been years in the waiting and we are still not sure what this will involve. For keen GA flyers who wanted to advance their flying there really wasn't much for them to progress to unless they had a years spare time to sit the ATPL ground school which was pure overkill for their purposes.
Then there are the costs at flying at a club....I could go on for hours about this but ask yourself if paying £120 an hour for a 20-30 year old aircraft with a VOR (maybe 2), couple of old radios, no autopilot, tatty seats, coffee spills etc is considered value for money. If you only intend to do a few hours here and there then you can kind of substantiate the cost but what if you wanted to do 100-150hours per year and keep yourself nice and current which of course is what you need in an ideal world to be on top of things. So in this scenario you are looking more towards groups which can open an entire can of worms for the newbie.
Anyway there are some thoughts to get the ball rolling. Give it heaps on the PPL.
Last edited by potkettleblack; 13th Jun 2006 at 08:46.
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I'd like to suggest that the future is in farmstrip-based flying.
I'd agree with many if IO540's points. What I can't really understand is why so many pilots continue to pay enormous sums to hire dull spamcans from restrictive flying clubs?
If airfields continue to close, and I'm sure that they will, I believe more and more pilots will use the farmstrip network. Instead of hiring, they will buy into syndicates and benefit from much lower running costs. They will fly more often, raising skill levels.
Airfields which work hard to attract visiting pilots, by providing good food, friendly service, and low landing fees, will thrive. Compton Abbas is a fine example.
IO540 said "My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFRGA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity."
I disagree with IO540 that sport flying will continue to contract and disappear. There will always be pilots and would-be pilots. It may well be that most will not use the tired and expensive airfields which we see at present.
I'd agree with many if IO540's points. What I can't really understand is why so many pilots continue to pay enormous sums to hire dull spamcans from restrictive flying clubs?
If airfields continue to close, and I'm sure that they will, I believe more and more pilots will use the farmstrip network. Instead of hiring, they will buy into syndicates and benefit from much lower running costs. They will fly more often, raising skill levels.
Airfields which work hard to attract visiting pilots, by providing good food, friendly service, and low landing fees, will thrive. Compton Abbas is a fine example.
IO540 said "My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFRGA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity."
I disagree with IO540 that sport flying will continue to contract and disappear. There will always be pilots and would-be pilots. It may well be that most will not use the tired and expensive airfields which we see at present.
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I apologise for apparently hijacking a thread in my normal provocative style, but I feel that any debate about the traditional elements of the GA scene are inextricably linked with the modernist v. traditionalist debate. One can't objectively debate the pros and cons of the slide rule without extending the debate as described - because there are so much easier ways of doing the job.
With a business in electronics, I live and work in the modern world - as do most people in fact. I completely fail to see any objective argument for things like the slide rule and non-use of GPS. While modernisation is bound to erode traditional skills, it's equally the case that the motor car has eroded horse riding skills, but so what?
Mad Girl
You may be very lucky with your club, which is excellent. However, I suggest you get your PPL and then see how you get on. It's a very different world post-PPL.
potkettleblack
I am indeed fed up with the way the CAA has kept everything in the Dark Ages. I won't blame the CAA for anywhere near as many "wrongs" as many people do, but the UK GA scene is totally fragmented and nobody else has had the power to change things. Yet, with their ex-RAF-navigator traditionalist attitudes, they have chosen to do nothing at all, other than to churn out a load of patronising educational material. But to be fair to them, the flight training business has in general not wanted to modernise (because of the general lack of capital) and the CAA could have never acted against it.
There is no prospect of the IMC Rating being extended because JAA rules things now, and soon it will be EASA. The CAA is powerless now in this department. There is a JAA committee looking at reducing the ridiculous IR ground school (the chief thing driving the N-reg scene) but they are not making any useful progress.
Humaround
The only way out of the situation is to buy a plane, or a share in one. Until then, you are stuck in the same rut.
I agree that VFR flying as a sport (or leisure activity, whatever) will continue. The problem is that one needs an airfield to fly from. How far will you drive to an airfield? I know some people will drive for 2 hours but I think they are a tiny minority; most would chuck it in. For a start, except for a very long flight across Europe, there would be zero utility value in flying if you had to drive that far. Also, one's currency will go down the pan. Ask your local airfield for a breakdown of their income.
The future for many will be farm strips, but the vast majority of present-day PPLs will never get access to a farm strip. Have you tried it recently? I've tried it over the years and a simple polite enquiry regarding parking gets a very curt response. Farm strip communities tend to be very closely run private clubs, with tightly controlled recruitment and you have to be "in" with the right people to get invited. Most are constantly battling with NIMBYs so they are trying to keep a lid on how many pilots are active. Just like exclusive fishing clubs with fishing rights on a particular nice lake. You also need the "right" sort of plane; they don't want anything in the IFR tourer class - even if they have the required 700+m runway which most don't have.
With a business in electronics, I live and work in the modern world - as do most people in fact. I completely fail to see any objective argument for things like the slide rule and non-use of GPS. While modernisation is bound to erode traditional skills, it's equally the case that the motor car has eroded horse riding skills, but so what?
Mad Girl
You may be very lucky with your club, which is excellent. However, I suggest you get your PPL and then see how you get on. It's a very different world post-PPL.
potkettleblack
I am indeed fed up with the way the CAA has kept everything in the Dark Ages. I won't blame the CAA for anywhere near as many "wrongs" as many people do, but the UK GA scene is totally fragmented and nobody else has had the power to change things. Yet, with their ex-RAF-navigator traditionalist attitudes, they have chosen to do nothing at all, other than to churn out a load of patronising educational material. But to be fair to them, the flight training business has in general not wanted to modernise (because of the general lack of capital) and the CAA could have never acted against it.
There is no prospect of the IMC Rating being extended because JAA rules things now, and soon it will be EASA. The CAA is powerless now in this department. There is a JAA committee looking at reducing the ridiculous IR ground school (the chief thing driving the N-reg scene) but they are not making any useful progress.
Humaround
The only way out of the situation is to buy a plane, or a share in one. Until then, you are stuck in the same rut.
I agree that VFR flying as a sport (or leisure activity, whatever) will continue. The problem is that one needs an airfield to fly from. How far will you drive to an airfield? I know some people will drive for 2 hours but I think they are a tiny minority; most would chuck it in. For a start, except for a very long flight across Europe, there would be zero utility value in flying if you had to drive that far. Also, one's currency will go down the pan. Ask your local airfield for a breakdown of their income.
The future for many will be farm strips, but the vast majority of present-day PPLs will never get access to a farm strip. Have you tried it recently? I've tried it over the years and a simple polite enquiry regarding parking gets a very curt response. Farm strip communities tend to be very closely run private clubs, with tightly controlled recruitment and you have to be "in" with the right people to get invited. Most are constantly battling with NIMBYs so they are trying to keep a lid on how many pilots are active. Just like exclusive fishing clubs with fishing rights on a particular nice lake. You also need the "right" sort of plane; they don't want anything in the IFR tourer class - even if they have the required 700+m runway which most don't have.
Last edited by IO540; 13th Jun 2006 at 10:54.
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I agree with virtually all that has been written so far about this subject. The remedies are generally obvious, but the will amongst clubs and flying organisations does not often seem to be there.
My old club (before I moved to a different part of the company) was trying in its own way to do the sort of thing Madgirl mentions ref. her club. With mixed success, I might add. It worked, after a fashion, for assertive individuals, but those more introspective people were still left somewhat isolated.
I have heard of situations where aircraft apparently used for touring are still equipped with basic navigation instruments (e.g. not over-stable DI rather than HSI, no autopilot, single altimeter, etc.) on the basis that that was what new PPLs were used to having in training, so there is no reason for them to want or need anything more 'advanced'. I can see some logic in this, in the sense that it will encourage new PPLs to use the skills they have developed. However, where does it leave them when they wish to undertake more adventurous touring, for example. My problem with this attitude is that it does not seem to be developmental. All this is, of course, additional to the comfort and amenity element missing in elderly and often fairly dilapidated aircraft - at least as perceived by the non-pilot passenger.
For these reasons, when touring, I often seek out special hiring arrangements in order to gain access to something more convenient for the touring I wish to do. This brings its own special expense, of course, in terms of checkouts, currency on type, even conversions or additional ratings (with more requirements on currency). These are the ultimate effects of trying to secure flexible flying opportunities in the UK GA arena, and may also contribute to its possible decline.
My old club (before I moved to a different part of the company) was trying in its own way to do the sort of thing Madgirl mentions ref. her club. With mixed success, I might add. It worked, after a fashion, for assertive individuals, but those more introspective people were still left somewhat isolated.
I have heard of situations where aircraft apparently used for touring are still equipped with basic navigation instruments (e.g. not over-stable DI rather than HSI, no autopilot, single altimeter, etc.) on the basis that that was what new PPLs were used to having in training, so there is no reason for them to want or need anything more 'advanced'. I can see some logic in this, in the sense that it will encourage new PPLs to use the skills they have developed. However, where does it leave them when they wish to undertake more adventurous touring, for example. My problem with this attitude is that it does not seem to be developmental. All this is, of course, additional to the comfort and amenity element missing in elderly and often fairly dilapidated aircraft - at least as perceived by the non-pilot passenger.
For these reasons, when touring, I often seek out special hiring arrangements in order to gain access to something more convenient for the touring I wish to do. This brings its own special expense, of course, in terms of checkouts, currency on type, even conversions or additional ratings (with more requirements on currency). These are the ultimate effects of trying to secure flexible flying opportunities in the UK GA arena, and may also contribute to its possible decline.
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There are many, many problems with the GA "scene" at the moment but they all stem from from two things, Cost and over-regulation.
The cost of flying in this country is ludicrous, which stops the inward investment needed to provide things like new a/c or avionics.
The over-regulation for things like the IR, completely removes an entire strata of PPL's from flying G-reg machines. It not only is a financial issue, but also a safety one. If the IR was more useable, then more people would train for it and have more currency and capability.
At the moment, PFA and farm strip flying is expanding because they are seemingly more relaxed and sensibly managed. We all need to keep aviation as free and open as possible, otherwise it will end up being a sport only for the rich or the totally obsessed, rather than being for all. I am constantly finding new ways in which we are being scr*wed or bullied and since we are such a disparate bunch we can't make strong enough representation for ourselves.
Clubs can make a difference, but there are still too many sharks and incompetants in this business. I only know of one club run on sound financial foundations and I'm involved with it, all others I've known have either been "dodgy" or simply hopeless. This again stops investment as there is such a bad record industry wide, even though there are many good and sensible people involved in GA flying. The bad spoil it for the rest of us.
The cost of flying in this country is ludicrous, which stops the inward investment needed to provide things like new a/c or avionics.
The over-regulation for things like the IR, completely removes an entire strata of PPL's from flying G-reg machines. It not only is a financial issue, but also a safety one. If the IR was more useable, then more people would train for it and have more currency and capability.
At the moment, PFA and farm strip flying is expanding because they are seemingly more relaxed and sensibly managed. We all need to keep aviation as free and open as possible, otherwise it will end up being a sport only for the rich or the totally obsessed, rather than being for all. I am constantly finding new ways in which we are being scr*wed or bullied and since we are such a disparate bunch we can't make strong enough representation for ourselves.
Clubs can make a difference, but there are still too many sharks and incompetants in this business. I only know of one club run on sound financial foundations and I'm involved with it, all others I've known have either been "dodgy" or simply hopeless. This again stops investment as there is such a bad record industry wide, even though there are many good and sensible people involved in GA flying. The bad spoil it for the rest of us.
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Originally Posted by Say again s l o w l y
If the IR was more useable, then more people would train for it and have more currency and capability.
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The cost of getting an IR is not prohibitive relative to the ongoing cost of flying IFR and remaining IFR current.
I am certain that the chief problem with the JAA IR is that the sort of people who can afford to fly at that level (who tend to be people with the appropriate budgets, obviously, otherwise what are they doing there) are people with busy lives who can't slot the massive JAA ground school into everything else they have to do. Well, not before one exam expires before they can sit the rest... This isn't a problem with the main class of candidate which is a young man, usually "under employed", wishing to become an airline pilot.
Nobody is seriously arguing for an easier flying syllabus, and indeed the FAA IR flying syllabus is just as hard if not harder in certain respects.
But getting an FAA IR is also a major hassle. You have to go to the USA, mess around with visas and others papers, put the plane on the N register (which usually means buying one, but that's fair enough for IFR anyway), and mess around within the DfT restrictions.
If there was a European IR which involves the same training (ground+air) as the FAA one, and there is zero rational reason why there should not be, very few people would bother going the FAA route. A lot more people could use GA for utility purposes, just like they do in the USA.
I am certain that the chief problem with the JAA IR is that the sort of people who can afford to fly at that level (who tend to be people with the appropriate budgets, obviously, otherwise what are they doing there) are people with busy lives who can't slot the massive JAA ground school into everything else they have to do. Well, not before one exam expires before they can sit the rest... This isn't a problem with the main class of candidate which is a young man, usually "under employed", wishing to become an airline pilot.
Nobody is seriously arguing for an easier flying syllabus, and indeed the FAA IR flying syllabus is just as hard if not harder in certain respects.
But getting an FAA IR is also a major hassle. You have to go to the USA, mess around with visas and others papers, put the plane on the N register (which usually means buying one, but that's fair enough for IFR anyway), and mess around within the DfT restrictions.
If there was a European IR which involves the same training (ground+air) as the FAA one, and there is zero rational reason why there should not be, very few people would bother going the FAA route. A lot more people could use GA for utility purposes, just like they do in the USA.
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I agree with most of what's been said here; the GA scene does have it's frustrations and the rise in costs is certainly helping to stifle advances in technology that are now common-place in the automotive world (electronic engine managment, sat-nav navigation, new fuel efficient aircraft) although the PFA guys are beggining to embrace such advances. Perhaps this will ultimately be the future of GA, as our aging fleet of Pipers and Cessnas can't last forever.
Personally, I think that there are good reasons to maintain the 'steam-driven' approach to navigation training, as that way the principles get absorbed properly before moving on to the ubiquitous GPS. What I can't understand is why GPS is regarded by flying schools as the work of Baelzebbub; surely a basic training in the use of GPS should be part of the PPL syllabus - rather than maintaining the present attitude that it doesn't exist.
However, I think that it is very easy to start to become "Eyeore"-ish about GA - which is unfair as there is still a huge amount to enjoy; if we - the pilots who already hold PPL's - continue to carp, surely we are aiding the decline of GA by discouraging new blood by our negativity?
Madgirl, good for you for taking up this most wonderful of pursuits, and good to hear that your club is a good place to spend time; so many aren't....
I fly a venerable PA28 140 out of EGTB, so if you fancy a right hand seat, to broaden your experience, do PM me. Otherwise, good luck with the studies.
Personally, I think that there are good reasons to maintain the 'steam-driven' approach to navigation training, as that way the principles get absorbed properly before moving on to the ubiquitous GPS. What I can't understand is why GPS is regarded by flying schools as the work of Baelzebbub; surely a basic training in the use of GPS should be part of the PPL syllabus - rather than maintaining the present attitude that it doesn't exist.
However, I think that it is very easy to start to become "Eyeore"-ish about GA - which is unfair as there is still a huge amount to enjoy; if we - the pilots who already hold PPL's - continue to carp, surely we are aiding the decline of GA by discouraging new blood by our negativity?
Madgirl, good for you for taking up this most wonderful of pursuits, and good to hear that your club is a good place to spend time; so many aren't....
I fly a venerable PA28 140 out of EGTB, so if you fancy a right hand seat, to broaden your experience, do PM me. Otherwise, good luck with the studies.
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Originally Posted by wsmempson
if we - the pilots who already hold PPL's - continue to carp, surely we are aiding the decline of GA by discouraging new blood by our negativity?.
Originally Posted by wsmempson
and good to hear that your club is a good place to spend time; so many aren't....
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Originally Posted by wsmempson
Personally, I think that there are good reasons to maintain the 'steam-driven' approach to navigation training, as that way the principles get absorbed properly before moving on to the ubiquitous GPS. What I can't understand is why GPS is regarded by flying schools as the work of Baelzebbub; surely a basic training in the use of GPS should be part of the PPL syllabus - rather than maintaining the present attitude that it doesn't exist.
I believe, however, that it is not unreasonable to expect to be able to find aircraft for touring (i.e. post licence acquisition) that have some reasonable levels of modern equipment, and comfort for one's passengers.
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Yep GA needs to move forward even if it doesnt like it!!!!
I am fully supportive of teaching PPLs basic such as flight logs, W&B, dead reckoning, etc. but once you have your PPL and know what you are doing what is wrong with getting your laptop to do all the work for you and then a final 'cross check' against your charts?
As regards GPS, if its there then use it in conjunction with your map! If its GPS or any other device, technique, etc that will reduce my workload to free me up to concentrate on other, possibly more important issues, then I am all for it.
J.
I am fully supportive of teaching PPLs basic such as flight logs, W&B, dead reckoning, etc. but once you have your PPL and know what you are doing what is wrong with getting your laptop to do all the work for you and then a final 'cross check' against your charts?
As regards GPS, if its there then use it in conjunction with your map! If its GPS or any other device, technique, etc that will reduce my workload to free me up to concentrate on other, possibly more important issues, then I am all for it.
J.
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Originally Posted by Julian
Yep GA needs to move forward even if it doesnt like it!!!!
I am fully supportive of teaching PPLs basic such as flight logs, W&B, dead reckoning, etc. but once you have your PPL and know what you are doing what is wrong with getting your laptop to do all the work for you and then a final 'cross check' against your charts?
As regards GPS, if its there then use it in conjunction with your map! If its GPS or any other device, technique, etc that will reduce my workload to free me up to concentrate on other, possibly more important issues, then I am all for it.
J.
I am fully supportive of teaching PPLs basic such as flight logs, W&B, dead reckoning, etc. but once you have your PPL and know what you are doing what is wrong with getting your laptop to do all the work for you and then a final 'cross check' against your charts?
As regards GPS, if its there then use it in conjunction with your map! If its GPS or any other device, technique, etc that will reduce my workload to free me up to concentrate on other, possibly more important issues, then I am all for it.
J.
I suppose I am so old that I have seen the decline in people's ability to remember the basics. Once you have a laptop loaded up with a programme for your W & B and route planning you begin to rely on it and won't question stupidities. Look what has been happening with sat navs in cars. Drivers can see a cliff or a ford, but will follow the computer instructions, even if common sense tells them to stop
For what it's worth I am not a luddite in technology. Anything that makes life easier for me in the air is welcome. But technology is not the solution to all of our problems in aviation
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Hold up guys - slow down
Originally Posted by Mad Girl
I’m still in the circuit, so haven’t seen the big wide world yet, so what’s it like?? Is my club the exception rather than the norm??
This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there, so perhaps you “old hacks” would care to rape and pillage, and open this innocents eyes. I’ll now step off my soapbox and let you carry on.
This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there, so perhaps you “old hacks” would care to rape and pillage, and open this innocents eyes. I’ll now step off my soapbox and let you carry on.
Can I remind you of the point of my question.
Am I going to have places to fly to and nice people to chat to at the other end or is it all total doom and gloom.
I don't have GPS in my car let alone in my club 'plane so haven't got a clue what you're going on about (and no my car is not about to fall to pieces - IO540's original post) and NO I don't know how to use a wizwheel - yet.
If you get too technical we newbies can't follow you - so how are we gonna learn???
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Mad Girl,
I too read some of the replies to your first post and thought that you might be jargoned out of the thread.
There are some great little GA airfields out there with friendly welcomes and good cuppas. There is also some fantastic scenery around to enjoy. Yes there seems to be a lot of musty, delapidated machines out there and I think the lack of investment does nothing to expand GA but in my opinion it is worth persuing your PPL.
Kit, technology etc etc. The great thing about aviation is that there is the whole spectrum out there from old classics with almost no instruments to the machine kitted out like a 747. Unfortunately money pervades, but other than that you can choose. It all depends on the sort of aviation YOU want to do.
I too read some of the replies to your first post and thought that you might be jargoned out of the thread.
There are some great little GA airfields out there with friendly welcomes and good cuppas. There is also some fantastic scenery around to enjoy. Yes there seems to be a lot of musty, delapidated machines out there and I think the lack of investment does nothing to expand GA but in my opinion it is worth persuing your PPL.
Kit, technology etc etc. The great thing about aviation is that there is the whole spectrum out there from old classics with almost no instruments to the machine kitted out like a 747. Unfortunately money pervades, but other than that you can choose. It all depends on the sort of aviation YOU want to do.
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Am I going to have places to fly to and nice people to chat to at the other end
or is it all total doom and gloom.
I agree with IO540 when he says that to really get the most from flying, you need to join a group or buy.
The Original Whirly
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Don't have time to comment on a lot of this, but....
Your club is unusual, Madgirl. So is Sheffield, where I instruct, where we have three female helicopter instructors (in two schools). In the UK as a whole, 6% of PPLs are female, and 2-3% of commercial pilots. That's not many, by any standards. A fair number of women do a PPL and rarely if ever meet another female pilot, let alone an instructor. And at Tatenhill, where I instruct on Saturdays, it's quite rare to have a day when someone doesn't assume I'm the tea lady and look distinctly shocked when I say I'm taking them flying, or make comments about women drivers (often quite lightheartedly)....and a bit back one person refused to fly with me because I'm female!!!
Personally I don't think the anorak-ness of flying clubs is the reason for this; I'm simply adding a bit to how it is out in the big wide world. But to comment more generally, there are loads of nice people, some great places to fly to, a reasonable social scene if you look for it, fly-ins somewhere or other most summer weekends...loads of things. And some of us fly what we can afford, use map and compass on a nice sunny day and GPS when there seems good reason too, and don't get too excited about all these things - we just like to get airborne, and talk about it when we can't.
There's loads more I could say but I gotta go teach some people to fly.
Don’t know where you go flying, but my club’s got nice female flying instructors and what am I?? (not 20 yr old leggy blonds – but what makes you think you’re so special??).
Personally I don't think the anorak-ness of flying clubs is the reason for this; I'm simply adding a bit to how it is out in the big wide world. But to comment more generally, there are loads of nice people, some great places to fly to, a reasonable social scene if you look for it, fly-ins somewhere or other most summer weekends...loads of things. And some of us fly what we can afford, use map and compass on a nice sunny day and GPS when there seems good reason too, and don't get too excited about all these things - we just like to get airborne, and talk about it when we can't.
There's loads more I could say but I gotta go teach some people to fly.
Spicy Meatball
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MadGirl - I just got my PPL in March and now have 4.5 hours as pilot in command, so all my comments are coming from someone who has low experience, not only from a flying point of view, but the general GA community as a whole.
I fly from Liverpool, a busy international airport, and I have never yet experienced anything negative as described, and if I ever think I am about to, then it is generally down to the attitude of the person involved, and not GA itself - airmanship for example. I have only ever flown to Wolverhampton and Tatenhill - both very nice airfields, with very nice people - again, nothing negative as described.
I have also met a fair few female pilots, who are every good, including Whirlybird who although I have never flown with her (I will I promise) I know is an exceptional instructor, not only because of her reputation (as a pilot ) but because of her attitude in general. That's enough compliments for you today anyway 
I would like a definition of 'anorak' - I mean aren't we all aviation anorak's in our own way? Don't we all love to talk about flying in the pub? Don't we all get on our wives/husband's nerves when we don't shutup about it?
Finally, the age old GPS debate - I haven't bought one and don't think I will. They are an excellent piece of kit, you can't deny that, and they do make flying easy - but to me, I love drawing the line on the chart, finding where the railway meets the bridge and flying a new heading - guess I must be an anorak.
I second the offer of a right hand seat MadGirl, if you are ever oop north! Enjoy your flying (you will anyway!) and make your own judgements from what you see
I fly from Liverpool, a busy international airport, and I have never yet experienced anything negative as described, and if I ever think I am about to, then it is generally down to the attitude of the person involved, and not GA itself - airmanship for example. I have only ever flown to Wolverhampton and Tatenhill - both very nice airfields, with very nice people - again, nothing negative as described.
I have also met a fair few female pilots, who are every good, including Whirlybird who although I have never flown with her (I will I promise) I know is an exceptional instructor, not only because of her reputation (as a pilot
) but because of her attitude in general. That's enough compliments for you today anyway I would like a definition of 'anorak' - I mean aren't we all aviation anorak's in our own way? Don't we all love to talk about flying in the pub? Don't we all get on our wives/husband's nerves when we don't shutup about it?
Finally, the age old GPS debate - I haven't bought one and don't think I will. They are an excellent piece of kit, you can't deny that, and they do make flying easy - but to me, I love drawing the line on the chart, finding where the railway meets the bridge and flying a new heading - guess I must be an anorak.
I second the offer of a right hand seat MadGirl, if you are ever oop north! Enjoy your flying (you will anyway!) and make your own judgements from what you see