6 months to plan a long trip?
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6 months to plan a long trip?
After reading a trip article somewhere, the final piece of advice was 'Take at least 6 months to plan the trip'. Granted, the flight was for two aircraft going from the UK to Spitzbergen/Svalbard and back, but SIX MONTHS? I'm a humble student pilot at the moment, but this seems ridiculous. I'm not saying it should be planned in a day, or even a week, but two weeks to a month seems more reasonable. Are they waiting for the aircraft to rust?
I know you need to plan with all due diligence, and you'll need immersion suits, current weather & GPS updates, maintenance, NavBox, a backup GPS, but it really smacks of being slightly too cautious - an engine can fail just as easily in six months time. Before some mentions waiting until summer, they flew in winter/spring, potential icing conditions (although below icing levels), entirely acceptable of course, but six months planning is really taking the mickey. Funny thing too, they flew in loose (ish) formation a lot during the trip - surely increasing risk exponentially?
Apologies if I'm showing a lot of ignorance here, I'd just like to understand why it takes so long to plan.
I know you need to plan with all due diligence, and you'll need immersion suits, current weather & GPS updates, maintenance, NavBox, a backup GPS, but it really smacks of being slightly too cautious - an engine can fail just as easily in six months time. Before some mentions waiting until summer, they flew in winter/spring, potential icing conditions (although below icing levels), entirely acceptable of course, but six months planning is really taking the mickey. Funny thing too, they flew in loose (ish) formation a lot during the trip - surely increasing risk exponentially?
Apologies if I'm showing a lot of ignorance here, I'd just like to understand why it takes so long to plan.
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Does seem an incredibly long time!
The person writing the article maybe someone has previously just been used to bimbling about the circuit and not really done any long trip planning before.
What was the trip distance? Duration? stops? etc?
The person writing the article maybe someone has previously just been used to bimbling about the circuit and not really done any long trip planning before.
What was the trip distance? Duration? stops? etc?
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Originally Posted by Julian
Does seem an incredibly long time!
The person writing the article maybe someone has previously just been used to bimbling about the circuit and not really done any long trip planning before.
What was the trip distance? Duration? stops? etc?
The person writing the article maybe someone has previously just been used to bimbling about the circuit and not really done any long trip planning before.
What was the trip distance? Duration? stops? etc?
I just carried out my first trip, last week, from Teesside to Corsica, with about 3 months planning, and I didn't have to arrange for anywhere near the amount of kit, such as hunting rifles! However, If I was to plan a similar trip to southern europe again, I would probably be ok with 6 weeks or so.
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If going to places where fuel is available, 6 months is way over the top. There is a reasonably straightforward process for planning a complicated trip, involving stuff like obtaining the details of every airfield and then faxing them to check they have avgas, etc. and whether there are any special requirements. This can take some weeks but no longer. Then you have to wait for suitable weather....
If avgas is not available en route then it has to be shipped (in drums) ahead and this is more complicated. I have done my share of conventional commercial-items export to dodgy countries in years gone by and shipping drums of avgas to some remote place in some bongo-bongo land must resemble russian roulette (whether the stuff will actually turn up and not be nicked by the locals).
Overflight permits is another dodgy area (in which I have no experience).
I've never done a trip to the cold wilderness up north but again it seems that 6m is way OTT. Unfortunately, as is normal for articles accepted for publication by UK flying mags, the article (which I did read) didn't do into enough detail to enable someone to replicate it.
Planning a trip to the southernmost bits of Europe (the far ends of Greece, say) is a few days' work, whether VFR or IFR. IFR tends to be a bit easier. Some airports might be e.g. 10-day PPR but the planning itself is easy.
As for GPS databases, survival gear, etc, well one should have all that already, permanently in the boot. Never get airborne without it.
If avgas is not available en route then it has to be shipped (in drums) ahead and this is more complicated. I have done my share of conventional commercial-items export to dodgy countries in years gone by and shipping drums of avgas to some remote place in some bongo-bongo land must resemble russian roulette (whether the stuff will actually turn up and not be nicked by the locals).
Overflight permits is another dodgy area (in which I have no experience).
I've never done a trip to the cold wilderness up north but again it seems that 6m is way OTT. Unfortunately, as is normal for articles accepted for publication by UK flying mags, the article (which I did read) didn't do into enough detail to enable someone to replicate it.
Planning a trip to the southernmost bits of Europe (the far ends of Greece, say) is a few days' work, whether VFR or IFR. IFR tends to be a bit easier. Some airports might be e.g. 10-day PPR but the planning itself is easy.
As for GPS databases, survival gear, etc, well one should have all that already, permanently in the boot. Never get airborne without it.
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For crying out loud people.
Do you honestly think it means 6 months looking at charts. 6 months refers to:
Booking fuel (yes - it had to be ordered specially if you read the article)
Obtaining blobby suits
Making sure the aircraft were serviced and fit to go
Obtaining extra equipment
etc etc
Some people really need to think before typing - preferable after they've pulled their head out of their ars*s!
Do you honestly think it means 6 months looking at charts. 6 months refers to:
Booking fuel (yes - it had to be ordered specially if you read the article)
Obtaining blobby suits
Making sure the aircraft were serviced and fit to go
Obtaining extra equipment
etc etc
Some people really need to think before typing - preferable after they've pulled their head out of their ars*s!
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And they all did ditching courses.
And some of them had to learn to use the rifles.
And probably more, but I read the article in a hurry this morning, and I can't remember.
And I daresay while doing this they all had to deal with jobs, families, and the other normal things of life too.
I seem to remember Polly Vacher spend over a year planning her last round the world trip over the poles. Again, not looking at charts, but arranging fuel, doing courses, learning all the stuff you need to survive in wilderness areas. Spitzbergen is the Arctic, and a wilderness area. If you have engine failure, and don't know how to survive, you die - not maybe, definitely! Six months? I'm amazed it only took six months.
Yes, Confabulous, and others, you are really, really showing your ignorance here.
And some of them had to learn to use the rifles.
And probably more, but I read the article in a hurry this morning, and I can't remember.
And I daresay while doing this they all had to deal with jobs, families, and the other normal things of life too.
I seem to remember Polly Vacher spend over a year planning her last round the world trip over the poles. Again, not looking at charts, but arranging fuel, doing courses, learning all the stuff you need to survive in wilderness areas. Spitzbergen is the Arctic, and a wilderness area. If you have engine failure, and don't know how to survive, you die - not maybe, definitely! Six months? I'm amazed it only took six months.
Yes, Confabulous, and others, you are really, really showing your ignorance here.
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I have spent 8 months planning a trip to Spain.
No survival training nor shipping of fuel was required, yet it has still taken 8 months. That's is not to say that I have spent Mon-Fri 9-5 planning the trip for 8 months. Rather that I have been gradually working away at it over 8 months. No doubt it could be done much quicker if needed.
The big delay in thing like this result not from the flight, but from the people. There is a group of 5 of us taking 2 aircraft.
The idea was conceived last October, and a rough outline of the trip was prepared, together with a flyer for our club Christmas party. I met with a colleague once or twice over this period to organise the rough route and the flyer. The idea was presented to the other club members at our Christmas Party. People where then given a period to decide if they wanted to join up.
We then had to meet as a group to agree the final route and over night stops.
Hotels had to me investigated and booked. Each individual flight had to be planned, and each airport be looked up. (We are visiting far more airports than is actually necessary, resulting in a larger amount of work to be done.) This was spread out over a number of weekends. We would spend maybe an hour or two doing a little work, before enjoying a fine lunch, or a local flight.
You see, the planning becomes as much a social event as a chore.
Some things take time, unless you rush them. For example, I have had to PPR 11 different airports. Rather than phone each up and try out my broken French, and non existent Spanish, I faxed each one. A week later I had replies from about half, so I faxed a reminder to the rest. A week later I had replies from all. Now I certainly could have phoned each up, and got the necessary info in about 1.5 hours, but I was in no rush.
Chart for example have to be ordered. You also want to check their revision dates, so that they aren't revised before your trip. They take awhile to arrive.
Aircraft have to be serviced, to ensure that they have sufficient hours before their 50 hour check. (We will be using about 25 hours.)
More than the flight has to be planned too. This is very much a holiday, and we want to do some fun stuff too. That takes time and research too.
Some people are happy to walk into a travel agent, purchase a two week package holiday and do no more than pack a bag and head to the airport. I on the other hand like to arrange my own holiday, and invest some time into picking the destination, the accommodation, the activities etc. This can take a number of months. If the flight is also your holiday, then it's likely to take longer than simple flight planning.
I flew to France for 2 weeks last year. It was my first (non-commercial) flight to the Continent. I think I spent 3 or 4 months planning both the flight and the holiday element.
Having now flown there, I no longer have to research the local rules. I have the charts on my floor at the moment (for the Spanish trip). No doubt if I decided I wanted to fly somewhere there tomorrow, I could plan the FLIGHT in a couple of hours at most.
When you haven't been to that country before, you don't have any of the charts etc, you need to organise aircraft, you need to find out who wants to come, and you need to make decisions by committee things take much longer. Add into the equation the fact that it's a holiday, and you want to plan that too, 6 months does not seem an unreasonable time.
Now if you need to start doing survival training organising international gun permits etc......how long is a piece of string....
dp
No survival training nor shipping of fuel was required, yet it has still taken 8 months. That's is not to say that I have spent Mon-Fri 9-5 planning the trip for 8 months. Rather that I have been gradually working away at it over 8 months. No doubt it could be done much quicker if needed.
The big delay in thing like this result not from the flight, but from the people. There is a group of 5 of us taking 2 aircraft.
The idea was conceived last October, and a rough outline of the trip was prepared, together with a flyer for our club Christmas party. I met with a colleague once or twice over this period to organise the rough route and the flyer. The idea was presented to the other club members at our Christmas Party. People where then given a period to decide if they wanted to join up.
We then had to meet as a group to agree the final route and over night stops.
Hotels had to me investigated and booked. Each individual flight had to be planned, and each airport be looked up. (We are visiting far more airports than is actually necessary, resulting in a larger amount of work to be done.) This was spread out over a number of weekends. We would spend maybe an hour or two doing a little work, before enjoying a fine lunch, or a local flight.
You see, the planning becomes as much a social event as a chore.
Some things take time, unless you rush them. For example, I have had to PPR 11 different airports. Rather than phone each up and try out my broken French, and non existent Spanish, I faxed each one. A week later I had replies from about half, so I faxed a reminder to the rest. A week later I had replies from all. Now I certainly could have phoned each up, and got the necessary info in about 1.5 hours, but I was in no rush.
Chart for example have to be ordered. You also want to check their revision dates, so that they aren't revised before your trip. They take awhile to arrive.
Aircraft have to be serviced, to ensure that they have sufficient hours before their 50 hour check. (We will be using about 25 hours.)
More than the flight has to be planned too. This is very much a holiday, and we want to do some fun stuff too. That takes time and research too.
Some people are happy to walk into a travel agent, purchase a two week package holiday and do no more than pack a bag and head to the airport. I on the other hand like to arrange my own holiday, and invest some time into picking the destination, the accommodation, the activities etc. This can take a number of months. If the flight is also your holiday, then it's likely to take longer than simple flight planning.
I flew to France for 2 weeks last year. It was my first (non-commercial) flight to the Continent. I think I spent 3 or 4 months planning both the flight and the holiday element.
Having now flown there, I no longer have to research the local rules. I have the charts on my floor at the moment (for the Spanish trip). No doubt if I decided I wanted to fly somewhere there tomorrow, I could plan the FLIGHT in a couple of hours at most.
When you haven't been to that country before, you don't have any of the charts etc, you need to organise aircraft, you need to find out who wants to come, and you need to make decisions by committee things take much longer. Add into the equation the fact that it's a holiday, and you want to plan that too, 6 months does not seem an unreasonable time.
Now if you need to start doing survival training organising international gun permits etc......how long is a piece of string....
dp
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Thanks Dublinpilot, it all makes sense now! 
Whirly & Chilli, I really don't mind showing my ignorance in these matters, I'm a student after all, and no-one goes from ignorance to understanding in the blink of an eye... unless someone explains it all, as dublinpilot and others have done. Better I find out these things now rather then later, in my opinion
Whirly & Chilli, I really don't mind showing my ignorance in these matters, I'm a student after all, and no-one goes from ignorance to understanding in the blink of an eye... unless someone explains it all, as dublinpilot and others have done. Better I find out these things now rather then later, in my opinion
It could be a real inconvenience landing at a remote Arctic airfield to find that you have to either:
- wait for next Summer's ship for your fuel drum
- Charter a Twin Otter to fly up a fuel drum$$$$$$$$
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I hadnt read the article hence why I asked for further info. If the writer had to get firearms training, ditching courses, etc, then that would certainly add to the trip planning length. In fact I would say that it goes outside the sphere of planning a trip as its actually extra training required so a whole different ballgame.
Proclaiming ignorance/heads up @rses I think is a bit strong though!
As said
Some people really need to think before typing
Proclaiming ignorance/heads up @rses I think is a bit strong though!
As said
Some people really need to think before typing
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I don't think firearms training is much to do with flying. If you wanted to go there on Ryanair (assume they go there) you'd need to do the training too.
In fact, if you did go with Ryanair, you would definitely need survival and firearms training because you would have been dropped off 50 miles from the advertised destination
I don't wish to have a go at a UK flying magazine (a popular pastime here and elsewhere) but the typical readership is at a level where a serious "don't try this at home" disclaimer would be mandatory. The vast majority of UK PPLs, graduates of the esteemed JAA flight training industry at £8000 a pop, are completely unable to plan a flight from Goodwood to Malaga in perfect weather, and need a "cross channel checkout" to go to LeTouquet. A bit sad really, I think.
The 6 months referred to is clearly elapsed time, taking into account "life". A pro who does ferrying for example would have the logistics sorted in a week or two.
In fact, if you did go with Ryanair, you would definitely need survival and firearms training because you would have been dropped off 50 miles from the advertised destination
I don't wish to have a go at a UK flying magazine (a popular pastime here and elsewhere) but the typical readership is at a level where a serious "don't try this at home" disclaimer would be mandatory. The vast majority of UK PPLs, graduates of the esteemed JAA flight training industry at £8000 a pop, are completely unable to plan a flight from Goodwood to Malaga in perfect weather, and need a "cross channel checkout" to go to LeTouquet. A bit sad really, I think.
The 6 months referred to is clearly elapsed time, taking into account "life". A pro who does ferrying for example would have the logistics sorted in a week or two.
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I've been on some very long trips that I've planned the night before. That's fine in "civilisation". For Svalbard, if you want fuel there when you arrive, you have to arrange for it to be there. If you're planning on arriving while the pack ice is in place, you have to arrange for it to arrive before the pack ice - or pay for the Twotter to fly it up for you.
The pack ice arrives around September. So if you start planning in October for a trip in April, you blew it.
The pack ice arrives around September. So if you start planning in October for a trip in April, you blew it.
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Something also to take into account. Whether flying, driving or getting a bus.
There's a difference between someone saying "right you need to go to london now" and "lets have a nice trip to london in the summer".
I'm planning to go to Japan with my friend, we have talked about it and things we want to do while we are there. But how much do you count as planning and how much is thinking about it.
I await the mass of complaints for using "nice" and "London" in the same sentence.
Ben (up north) Coulthard
There's a difference between someone saying "right you need to go to london now" and "lets have a nice trip to london in the summer".
I'm planning to go to Japan with my friend, we have talked about it and things we want to do while we are there. But how much do you count as planning and how much is thinking about it.
I await the mass of complaints for using "nice" and "London" in the same sentence.
Ben (up north) Coulthard
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christ on a stick, I decided to go to Spain yesterday, Mallorca to be exact and am going on Tuesday. I looked at the map chose a route and will fly it. Not exactly rocket science. Going to go Poitier, Perpignan and then direct Mallorca to Son Bonet. Was supposed to take an r22 out there last year so decided to do it fixed wing now I have the chance and the weather is looking stunning!
In 3 weeks we are going to Prague as a group, just decided on it, bought the charts and will go. Simple. One of the great joys of flying!
And spitzbergen is not the wilderness it is just ooop north. been there a few times and its no major drama to go there either.
whirls I think you may have uncharacteristically over reacted on that one.
In 3 weeks we are going to Prague as a group, just decided on it, bought the charts and will go. Simple. One of the great joys of flying!
And spitzbergen is not the wilderness it is just ooop north. been there a few times and its no major drama to go there either.
whirls I think you may have uncharacteristically over reacted on that one.
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I was on the trip in question, mine is the Bonanza in many of the pictures. The planning did indeed take more than six months and even then, it almost didn't happen because we had missed the last freight ship heading north in September - the trip was in March. It just happened that Svalbard found 4 x 200 litre drums of avgas, which was almost exactly how much we needed. The next major expedition is now being planned for the summer of 2007 - Yes, more than a year in advance. But if you want to go to places that seldom if ever see piston engine aircraft and especially places that are in extreem locations, then prior planning is all important. We're not talking about a hop accross the channel here..!
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Originally Posted by bose-x
christ on a stick, I decided to go to Spain yesterday, Mallorca to be exact and am going on Tuesday. I looked at the map chose a route and will fly it. Not exactly rocket science. Going to go Poitier, Perpignan and then direct Mallorca to Son Bonet. Was supposed to take an r22 out there last year so decided to do it fixed wing now I have the chance and the weather is looking stunning!
In 3 weeks we are going to Prague as a group, just decided on it, bought the charts and will go. Simple. One of the great joys of flying!
And spitzbergen is not the wilderness it is just ooop north. been there a few times and its no major drama to go there either.
whirls I think you may have uncharacteristically over reacted on that one.
In 3 weeks we are going to Prague as a group, just decided on it, bought the charts and will go. Simple. One of the great joys of flying!
And spitzbergen is not the wilderness it is just ooop north. been there a few times and its no major drama to go there either.
whirls I think you may have uncharacteristically over reacted on that one.
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Originally Posted by fltcom
Been there a few times - no major drama -please feel free to tell us all about it?
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spitzbergen is not the wilderness it is just ooop north
been there a few times and its no major drama to go there either.