Flying into the sea
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying into the sea
This happens to vfr pilots subject to 'blue out' or very hazy conditions, but the only cases I know of are John F. Kennedy junior into a sunset on a hazy evening offshore in New England and the Scillies helicopter.
How big a danger is this really? How many cases have there been? What are the best tactics to deal with it on a theoretically vfr day? I find going low -- 500-1000ft -- helps as you can see texture in the ocean.
All thoughts appreciated.
QDM
How big a danger is this really? How many cases have there been? What are the best tactics to deal with it on a theoretically vfr day? I find going low -- 500-1000ft -- helps as you can see texture in the ocean.
All thoughts appreciated.
QDM
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find keeping an eye on the altimeter prevents this from happening.
QDM
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fly considerably higher than 500-1000ft... have a target level, say 4000-4500 and stay within your band, use GPS and follow the track line, don't try too hard to fly the aircraft. Without a horizon, its easy to end up with PIO due to making tiny corrections all the time. Just relax and correct any deviations once get beyond limits you have set yourself (eg vsi 200ft/min - compass 10deg off course).
Remember the more height you have, the more time you have to manage an emergency, should one occur. Over water, your want all the time you can get.
Remember the more height you have, the more time you have to manage an emergency, should one occur. Over water, your want all the time you can get.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The danger is loosing the natural horizon.
Quite likely on a hazy summer day over the sea. An inexperienced pilot will end up in a spiral dive if he is not current on instruments. The airplane has a natural tendency to end up in a spiral dive if left alone.
Once a spiral dive is allowed to develop beyond 45° bank, the poor pilot will see the rate of descent and try to stop the descent by pulling back on the stick. This will make the spiral dive even worse, etc etc.
There was an accident near Ostend where a Nord 1100? (Me 208) was flown into the sea with sightseeing passengers on a hazy summer day. There was also an Air India 747 lost in a spiral dive accident.
Dirk
Quite likely on a hazy summer day over the sea. An inexperienced pilot will end up in a spiral dive if he is not current on instruments. The airplane has a natural tendency to end up in a spiral dive if left alone.
Once a spiral dive is allowed to develop beyond 45° bank, the poor pilot will see the rate of descent and try to stop the descent by pulling back on the stick. This will make the spiral dive even worse, etc etc.
There was an accident near Ostend where a Nord 1100? (Me 208) was flown into the sea with sightseeing passengers on a hazy summer day. There was also an Air India 747 lost in a spiral dive accident.
Dirk
Blah Blah Blah
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Malmesbury VRP
Age: 49
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless you loose your Altimeter/ASI or you Compass/DI i don't see how it is possible (unless some control surface failure occurs). I don't have my IMC yet (booked for August), yet i fly at least 3 times a week from the Isle of Man to somewhere (Newtonards, Dublin, Liverpool, Bristol...) quiet often there is no horizon and plenty of haze. For me it is common sense to look atthe instruments (usualy ASi and DI) i find if those two are saying what you expect then all is well (obviously i check the other insturments). I think it is logical to say if your airspeed is not right then the plane is doing something that is most likely going to ruin your day if you dont sort it out.
Supercalafragilistic
expialidotiousIsAVeryLong
WordAndIStillOnlyPaid£5
expialidotiousIsAVeryLong
WordAndIStillOnlyPaid£5
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right side of Pennines
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
with your altimeter set to 1013 how can this be?
qdm i think you should be fairly safe as long as you have an IQ above 3
Ben (know nothing) Coulthard
qdm i think you should be fairly safe as long as you have an IQ above 3
Ben (know nothing) Coulthard
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Ben, as a fairly low-hours PPL without any IMC training (beyond the minimum), I avoid flying in hazy conditions - over land or sea - for the lack of horizon.
I have flown at about 4,000' with an instructor in real clag - no horizon at all, virtual white-out looking straight ahead. It was only possible to remain straight & level on instruments, and without IMC training and experience I would have been struggling to remain straight & level, let alone navigate and communicate!
With the FI looking after the Nav & Comms - and helping to monitor my height, speed and bank, it was just possible for me to fly safely.
Yes, I am sure that with more training and experience I will be able to fly safely single pilot IMC, but I heartily agree with those who say that VFR-only pilots - and those not current in IMC - should avoid these conditions.
It's just that so much of your capacity is taken up with unfamiliar instrument flying that any little fly in the ointment can create an overload, leading to loss of control.
SD
I have flown at about 4,000' with an instructor in real clag - no horizon at all, virtual white-out looking straight ahead. It was only possible to remain straight & level on instruments, and without IMC training and experience I would have been struggling to remain straight & level, let alone navigate and communicate!
With the FI looking after the Nav & Comms - and helping to monitor my height, speed and bank, it was just possible for me to fly safely.
Yes, I am sure that with more training and experience I will be able to fly safely single pilot IMC, but I heartily agree with those who say that VFR-only pilots - and those not current in IMC - should avoid these conditions.
It's just that so much of your capacity is taken up with unfamiliar instrument flying that any little fly in the ointment can create an overload, leading to loss of control.
SD
The minimum equipment for night flying includes an AH and DG as you can and do encounter IMC-like conditions.
Yes, I've practiced needle, ball and airspeed, but the IFR accident record in the US shows that vacuum failures result in a number of loss of control accidents every year.
Me, I would not choose to be over water without said equipment unless land was in sight ahead.
I very much like to have enough height to be within gliding distance of shore. It also gives you a bit of time to put out a Mayday or correct mistakes.
Yes, I've practiced needle, ball and airspeed, but the IFR accident record in the US shows that vacuum failures result in a number of loss of control accidents every year.
Me, I would not choose to be over water without said equipment unless land was in sight ahead.
I very much like to have enough height to be within gliding distance of shore. It also gives you a bit of time to put out a Mayday or correct mistakes.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the Kennedy thing was flight into IMC, which just happened to take place at night so he could not see the stuff coming.
Night flight, and hazy summer weather, is often IMC in all but name. They don't tell you that when you get your PPL
One needs instrument training to fly usefully, even if one is technically 100% VFR.
Night flight, and hazy summer weather, is often IMC in all but name. They don't tell you that when you get your PPL
One needs instrument training to fly usefully, even if one is technically 100% VFR.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hazy summer weather, is often IMC in all but name. They don't tell you that when you get your PPL One needs instrument training to fly usefully, even if one is technically 100% VFR.
I did Dover-Calais once in very poor vis, but was down low enough to see the water and had no probs at all. I thought at the time I would have been OK a bit higher too.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QDM
I know I often write tongue in cheek but it's almost true.
It depends on how high you are.
In a 1 mile vis, 6000ft up (funny how many people ask a pilot how many feet is 1 mile - ever thought about that?
) you obviously won't see the surface at all, but it isn't quite IMC because there will be a lot more light above than below.
In more realistic conditions, say 3000m vis (legal for a UK PPL) and 5000ft up, you will see very little of the surface, and no texture if it is water. Again, not quite IMC.
In both above cases it will be hard to keep the wings level and thus hold a heading. You have to relax and treat it like instrument flight. I've done tons of flying like that, under VFR. I recall one 5hr flight right across France which was entirely legally VFR (even, if one wants to be pedantic, in sight of surface) but I hardly saw a thing. With a failed autopilot and thus very tiring.
The standard PPL training solution to poor vis is to fly low, but that has its dangers too of course. Much more so if the poor vis is due to heavy rain, in which case you could be well below MSA and still not see a damn thing.
That is why some level of instrument capability is required. Each to their own of course, and no doubt many (especially of the "traditional" crowd) will jump on me after this, but a pilot who wants to fly real distances does need IFR flying and navigation capability - even if he is legally limited to VFR flight rules.
I've flown 800nm legs across Europe, but even in the UK a lot of summer flying would have been impossible without instrument capability.
I know I often write tongue in cheek but it's almost true.
It depends on how high you are.
In a 1 mile vis, 6000ft up (funny how many people ask a pilot how many feet is 1 mile - ever thought about that?
) you obviously won't see the surface at all, but it isn't quite IMC because there will be a lot more light above than below.In more realistic conditions, say 3000m vis (legal for a UK PPL) and 5000ft up, you will see very little of the surface, and no texture if it is water. Again, not quite IMC.
In both above cases it will be hard to keep the wings level and thus hold a heading. You have to relax and treat it like instrument flight. I've done tons of flying like that, under VFR. I recall one 5hr flight right across France which was entirely legally VFR (even, if one wants to be pedantic, in sight of surface) but I hardly saw a thing. With a failed autopilot and thus very tiring.
The standard PPL training solution to poor vis is to fly low, but that has its dangers too of course. Much more so if the poor vis is due to heavy rain, in which case you could be well below MSA and still not see a damn thing.
That is why some level of instrument capability is required. Each to their own of course, and no doubt many (especially of the "traditional" crowd) will jump on me after this, but a pilot who wants to fly real distances does need IFR flying and navigation capability - even if he is legally limited to VFR flight rules.
I've flown 800nm legs across Europe, but even in the UK a lot of summer flying would have been impossible without instrument capability.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a very real phenomena and can be dangerous. As already mentioned JFK jr is a prime example of what can happen even if the circumstances were slightly different, the end result is the same.
Spatial disorientation is a very odd sensation and a hard one to rail against unless you are prepared. It is very unsettling and you must force yourself to believe your instruments. Not easy when the senses you rely on every day are screaming at you that something is wrong.
Practice and being forearmed are the only ways to try and combat this problem.
Whilst it happens less frequently to me now, I do occasionally get the "leans" and that's despite having a fair few hundred hours in actual IMC. (Not just under IFR).
Get a bit of time under the hood and make sure when you are flying in these conditions that you get the a/c well trimmed out and don't over control. try and keep something for reference and remember haze is always worse when flying into sun, if it all gets too much, look in another direction, you may have a better chance of finding something resembling a horizon, just be aware of false horizons, they really can be disorientating.
Spatial disorientation is a very odd sensation and a hard one to rail against unless you are prepared. It is very unsettling and you must force yourself to believe your instruments. Not easy when the senses you rely on every day are screaming at you that something is wrong.
Practice and being forearmed are the only ways to try and combat this problem.
Whilst it happens less frequently to me now, I do occasionally get the "leans" and that's despite having a fair few hundred hours in actual IMC. (Not just under IFR).
Get a bit of time under the hood and make sure when you are flying in these conditions that you get the a/c well trimmed out and don't over control. try and keep something for reference and remember haze is always worse when flying into sun, if it all gets too much, look in another direction, you may have a better chance of finding something resembling a horizon, just be aware of false horizons, they really can be disorientating.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flying cross channel, I'm okay with an indistinct horizon, so long as I can see the sea on either side, and keep the wings level through peripheral vision.
If I met VFR conditions as described by IO540, I would turn back swiftly, since I don't have the instrument skills necessary to manage the situation. I have a night rating (so not freaked by flying without the full visual picture), but no IMCR.
QDM, I'd give it a try and if you are uncomfortable, turn back into the conditions that were acceptable before.
IMHO you are spot on in considering the risks and working towards a rational decision.
If I met VFR conditions as described by IO540, I would turn back swiftly, since I don't have the instrument skills necessary to manage the situation. I have a night rating (so not freaked by flying without the full visual picture), but no IMCR.
QDM, I'd give it a try and if you are uncomfortable, turn back into the conditions that were acceptable before.
IMHO you are spot on in considering the risks and working towards a rational decision.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F3G,
I think that's the key: some kind of distinction between sea and air, even if not straight ahead. I prefer flying lower in these situations. Not infrequently, I go cross-channel in company with other aircraft, so flying lower is not such a problem. On a hazy day, I think you can almost always go low enough to gain texture on the sea's surface, can't you?
QDM
I think that's the key: some kind of distinction between sea and air, even if not straight ahead. I prefer flying lower in these situations. Not infrequently, I go cross-channel in company with other aircraft, so flying lower is not such a problem. On a hazy day, I think you can almost always go low enough to gain texture on the sea's surface, can't you?
QDM
QDM, sorry, no the lower you go the more dangerous it is.
The real problem is when the sea is SO calm and the Viz SO poor that the two become one in effect. It is similar to "Glassy landings" in Seaplanes.
There have been numerous accidents in these condditions. Ones I immediately recall are the Scilly Isles S 61 Helo that crashed into the sea with the loss of 17 or so lives and a Hawk that ran into the sea at 500+ knots off Gibralter and luckilly recovered into Gib with only a damaged aileron.
These conditions should be avoided at all costs.
UV
The real problem is when the sea is SO calm and the Viz SO poor that the two become one in effect. It is similar to "Glassy landings" in Seaplanes.
There have been numerous accidents in these condditions. Ones I immediately recall are the Scilly Isles S 61 Helo that crashed into the sea with the loss of 17 or so lives and a Hawk that ran into the sea at 500+ knots off Gibralter and luckilly recovered into Gib with only a damaged aileron.
These conditions should be avoided at all costs.
UV