Flying into the sea

[Whirlybird]

Spatial disorientation is a very odd sensation and a hard one to rail against unless you are prepared. It is very unsettling and you must force yourself to believe your instruments. Not easy when the senses you rely on every day are screaming at you that something is wrong.

The most sensible comment so far on this thread. Some of the things people are saying really scare the hell out of me.

Spatial disorientation can happen very easily over water. It's OK while you have some sort of horizon, and it helps if you have a ship to follow, or some other means of visual reference. Without that, if there's no horizon and the sky blends into the sea, you really won't know which way is up. Now, it's all very well to say rely on your instruments, and you MUST, but as SAS said, it's not easy. If your senses are screaming at you that you're in a steep right hand turn, and you feel as though you're hanging out of your seat, while your instruments say you're flying straight and level, you will really struggle to follow those instruments. Doing it for a few minutes may just be OK. But if you have a long water crossing, you'll be tired, you'll have to listen and talk on the radio, and navigate, all of them while you feel as though the aircraft is in a very odd attitude which you desperately want to correct. That's why instrument flying is so difficult, and needs training and constant practice. Anyone who thinks differently hasn't tried it, believe me!

I've flown across water in something like these sort of conditions, though I don't like it. But I've always vowed to turn back at the slightest hint of disorientation, because if it starts to happen, it can only get worse.

[RatherBeFlying]

QDM -- Kennedy went in from low altitude. If he had been up higher and had the bank insidiously increasing and dropping the nose, he might have clued in to the noise of increasing airspeed and recovered. That's what height gives you in this situation -- room to recover from mistakes.

The distraction of wife plus sister-in-law dragging him into conversation and distracting him from the vital task of keeping the wings level is in my opinion the trigger to above.

Please do find a hazy day and get some instrument dual.

[Dr Eckener]

The standard PPL training solution to poor vis is to fly low

I think you will find this is demonstrated rather than 'taught', in order that people understand the dangers of doing it.

You should always fly as high as you can in a single over water to reduce the distance between land where losing the noise will result in getting wet.

[IO540]

Some of the things people are saying really scare the hell out of me

Which things in particular?

But I've always vowed to turn back at the slightest hint of disorientation, because if it starts to happen, it can only get worse

If it simply always got worse, every instrument pilot would be dead now. The solution is to focus on the instruments - the horizon in particular.

You either fly by visual references (which, if you are a non-heli-IR helicopter pilot I'd guess you do, but rotary instrument flight is very different to fixed wing) or you fly on instruments. The problem with the former method (sticking to nice visibility) is that you can't fly in a lot of nice English summers.

That's why IMHO everybody should get instrument training, both aircraft control and navigation.

[Whirlybird]

Which things in particular?

"I find keeping an eye on the altimeter prevents this from happening."

"Unless you lose your Altimeter/ASI or you Compass/DI i don't see how it is possible"

"i think you should be fairly safe as long as you have an IQ above 3"

And anything else which implies that instrument flying is easy and doesn't need training and practice.

If it simply always got worse, every instrument pilot would be dead now. The solution is to focus on the instruments - the horizon in particular.

I was referring to non-instrument rated pilots; I thought that was obvious, but maybe it wasn't. And for the record, I have a PPL(A), and I know what flying across the sea in a f/w aircraft is like, and that is what I was talking about.

There are accidents due to poor vis every flying season, whether over the sea or not. And still non-instrument rated pilots think it only happens to other people, and that they're different. That's why thoughtless and uninformed comments on threads like this scare me.

[IO540]

OK, but the other side of the coin is that instrument flight is not any kind of rocket science. The very basic basics, enough to control and navigate, are just a small subset of the IMC Rating, and they will stop you getting killed.

We are talking about flying in haze, not doing NDB holds in the bottom of a CB

A lot of people get a bit elitist about this stuff, suggesting one should never fly in such conditions without an official instrument qualification. I would say that something less than that is actually pretty good, and that everybody should go and get it.

[gcolyer]

Whirlybird

I see you flagged up one of my comments:

"Unless you lose your Altimeter/ASI or you Compass/DI i don't see how it is possible"


Are you saying you are not screwed if you lost all 4 of those instruments while in a haze where you have no horizon and you cannot differentiate between the sky and the sea?

Obviously you have the AI to go by, but i would imagine if you lost your other instruments you would loose that as well.

As i mentioned in my post i dont yet have my IMC and i have flown accross the irish sea in haze with no horizon a number of times, i guess it is one of the downsides of living on the Isle of Man. I keep a regular scan on the Altimeter and DI, backed up with ASI and mag compass. Once you near the coast you usualy then get some form of horizon, if not you are most likely in fog in which case it is not really VMC anyway.

What I am trying to say is if you know how to read those instruments i don't see how you can get in to a mess, even with out IMC or IR.

My advise to anyone who runs in to bad haze over sea is to not look out the window and trust the instruments as you will end up with Spatial disorientation. I might get shot down now for saying don't look out the window, but with no IR or IMC a low hour pilot (like myself) could end up did fairly quick. if you keep your ears out on the radio you should have a fairly good idea of any traffic that is close by.

As some of you have said, i can highly recommend going up with a pilot that has plenty of IMC/IR hours and see how you get on.

[Say again s l o w l y]

The point is not what equipment you have onboard, but how able you are to understand it and make use of it.
An unqualified and inexperienced person will still smack into the sea no matter what machine they are in.

If however, you know what you are doing, have been trained properly and are in regular practice then as long as you have a DI and an Altimeter you should be fine. If you aren't then having a whizz bang IFR setup is about as much use as t*ts on a bull.

[Fuji Abound]

Unless you have experienced spatial disorientation I doubt it is either possible to describe accurately or to rationalise. However, I suspect every pilot who operates on instruments has been there at some time or other. Perhaps some are also more susceptible.

Personally I find entering IMC very shortly after take off whilst still in the climb and turning en route is often the trigger. The first few times it requires discipline to "beleive" the instruments and ignore everything your "brain" is telling you.

Spatial disorientation should never be taken lightly and you should expect and be aware that it will happen on instruments.

[172driver]

Originally Posted by IO540

Night flight, and hazy summer weather, is often IMC in all but name. They don't tell you that when you get your PPL One needs instrument training to fly usefully, even if one is technically 100% VFR.

IO540 is absolutely correct. A hazy day over the sea more often than not is effectively flying on instruments, even if you're technically VFR by a wide margin. I'd go as far as to say it's worse than a night flight, because at night you expect to lose the horizon, on a clear (at t/o) day you don't - but you do. Believe the instruments and NOT your brain. Easy on the controls and be as high as you can - which, in any case, you should always be (if possible) for an over-water crossing in a SE.

[Andy_RR]

I wonder why 'instrument flying' comes so easy to some?

Early on in my initial instrument training for my PPL(A), my instructor made me don the foggles and look down for a few minutes while she gave the controls a good workout. Only after I had a hefty dose of the leans did she hand over control - what a scary experience!

Also, just before I did my GFT, I had to do 1.5 hours more instrument flight. My instructor took me into true IMC for much of it. It was quite a while since I'd done any, so my scan was pathetic, chasing all the instruments around all over the place. Only when my instructor got me back concentrating on the AH did the VSI and ASI look after themselves.

It made me appreciate why currency is important to instrument flying. It also makes me wonder how gcoyler can fly effectively IMC without reference to an AH - how do you do it?

Also, what do you do in the case of full/significant instrument failure? My instructor said that dropping your airspeed and deploying flaps can improve hands-off stability if you lose all horizon references, easing your workload. He urged me to try it VMC sometime at altitude, which I've yet to do. Any comments on this?

A

[Whirlybird]

OK, but the other side of the coin is that instrument flight is not any kind of rocket science. The very basic basics, enough to control and navigate, are just a small subset of the IMC Rating, and they will stop you getting killed.

IO540,
You have an IR, and I think you are fairly current with instrument flying. Have you maybe forgotten what it's like for that not to be the case? The PPL(A) includes 5 hours of instrument flying anyway. Does that qualify pilots to fly in severe haze, do you think? Perhaps after several months or years of not doing so?

It was quite a while since I'd done any, so my scan was pathetic, chasing all the instruments around all over the place.

That's what can easily happen when you're not trained and current.

gcolyer,
I'm saying you can be screwed without losing those instruments! YOU may be able to fly in haze, but there's haze and haze - from just a lack of clear horizon to virtually IMC. I'm not sure what conditions you're flying in, but if you can cope, all well and good. But to suggest that ANY pilot can fly safely on instruments is inaccurate and irresponsible, in my view.

The point is not what equipment you have onboard, but how able you are to understand it and make use of it.
An unqualified and inexperienced person will still smack into the sea no matter what machine they are in.

SAS says it like it is...or like it very easily can be.

[gcolyer]

I have the luxury of an experienced CPL/IR/FI mate whI have been up with quiet a lot. As he knows i have my IMC booked for august he is giving me some hints and tips (more like lessons). A lot of the time i have flown with him he cover over some instruments (usualy DI and AI). Hopefully that explains my ease with Instrument flight.

As for not flying on the AI, I do. I just trust the Altimeter, ASI and compass. I have no ideas if that is good or bad i just know if i trust those i am fairly safe.

I have a question for you experienced IR/IMC people.

Some people say AI (Attitude Indicator) orthers say AH (Artificial Horzion)

Which is the correct term. From my IMC study AI seems to be the one.

A good experience of Spatial disorientation my Instructor taught me while on my PPL course was this.

Close your eyes (no cheating) and do a left and right 180 degree level turn. When you are convinced you are back to straight and level open your eyes. Not recommend without a capable saftey pilot and plenty of altitude. The results of this test can be pretty shocking.

[IO540]

Whirly

I don't think I ever said, and certainly didn't mean to say, that lack of instrument currency is not a problem. In fact, to the annoyance of many here, I have often made the point that this is the biggest enemy of the IMC Rating, and the schools don't tell you this when they take your money; they don't explain that you need a budget to fly at least double the UK PPL annual hours (which I gather is itself about 10-20hrs/year) not to mention the problems in getting into something suitable for it.

However, instrument flying to the extent required to fly and navigate straight and level is not at all hard. You could teach a 10 year old child to do it in no time at all - use the AI, the altimeter and fly a heading. What makes instrument training so brain numbing is the sheer workload during the training; you don't get a moment's rest and then the examiner fails one instrument after another and then he gets you to fly a VOR approach with a circle to land... etc etc In comparison instrument flight on a hazy summer day is a piece of cake.

The aircraft equipment does make a difference too, even though it is not "proper" to say that. Even a simple autopilot (wings level + heading hold) cuts down cockpit workload by perhaps 90%. And a decent GPS makes navigation a piece of cake.

gcolyer

"attitude indicator" is the correct term nowadays I think, but "horizon" or "artificial horizon" is what it always used to be called and still is called by many.

Your example about closing one's eyes is unsuprising - a 25000hr pilot would be out of control within seconds if he did that.

Peoples' susceptibility varies though. I almost never get leans or anything like that myself but then my sense of balance is rubbish. I think that people who can stand on one leg while doing up their shoelaces and do this with their eyes shut will probably suffer worst from instrument flight.

[Maxflyer]

I have an IMC, which thankfully I have never (on my own) used in anger, however, I found whilst I was using foggles during my training I was happy to deal with the instruments alone, as I had absolutely no other close up or distant reference point. It was only on an occasion when on a return flight to my home airfield with my IMC instructor, we did some flying through cloud for real. Suddenly relying solely on instruments became a very unsettling experience. The fact that I had my other close up references such as side windows, cockpit roof and the instructor next to me and yet no outside reference, all seemed very claustrophobic and unnerving. I kept checking the AI and even though it said I was straight and level my body felt that I was leaning slightly to the left. The airspeed was steady, the compass/DI said that I was holding my direction, yet my body told me differently. I was experiencing spatial disorientation and it took some getting used to. I overcame that and learnt to rely on my instruments and soon got used to flying IMC (for brief periods), but it was very spooky to begin with. I guess if you take your eye off the ball (literally) and are not concentrating sufficiently you could lose height quite easily without realising it was happening. A VFR pilot flying in hazy conditions who is unused to making good instrument scans could miss the signs!

with your altimeter set to 1013 how can this be?
qdm i think you should be fairly safe as long as you have an IQ above 3

Ben, you will find lots of people on here happy to give you sound advice in your quest for a PPL. Don't be so quick to make pronouncements unless you really do know what you mean. Your statement shows a distinct lack of understanding! Not criticism, just a friendly pointer.

[dublinpilot]

qdm*3,

You are getting varying different answers. The problem is that haze is so widely defined. As I understand it the defination of haze is viz of 1km to 9999m. However people have their own definations, and their own assumptions.

I suspect that if people said what their own definations was, then most people here would probably find that they were in agreement about the question you asked.

I am a VFR only pilot, with no instrument qualifications. I have made a number of sea crossing, in varying conditions. The worst vis I had was 6km. (Flew this at 3 or 4k ft.) This was done with two pilots, and a split workload.

At 6km the forward viz is largely useless, as most of the surface forward is hidden under the nose. The only view you can get of the surface is by looking out of the side windows downwards. I wouldn't attempt 6km across water by myself.

On the other hand, 10km across water isn't such a big deal. Don't climb so high that you have to look out the side window to see the surface. But so long as you can see surface while looking forward you should be fine. The flying will be a little more difficult than normal, but manageable.

15km+ No issues whatsoever.

That's my experience for what it's worth.

dp

[JW411]

This whole problem is about a lack of a clearly defined horizon.

I was a training captain on 4-engined aircraft in Aden 40 years ago. There were only two seasons - winter and summer. And so it was that we spent 6 months flying off runway 26 and 6 months flying off runway 08.

I am now speaking specifically about night flying but it is a similar problem. After take-off on runway 26 there were loads of visual clues with all the lights of Aden in front of you.

Then suddenly the season changed and after take-off from 08 was inky black and over the sea with no horizon. Despite comprehensive pre-flight briefings about this phenomena I had two fully-qualified F/Os who lost it and headed for the ocean in a descending turn.

Fortunately for them the F/E and I preferred scuba diving by daylight!

[QDMQDMQDM]

Thanks, dublinpilot,

Very useful experience of the kind I was after.

QDM

[Say again s l o w l y]

I would still caution about flying below around 4-5K, simply because of the fact you are in a single. If I clarify my earlier comments with viz limits.

Below around 5000m it really is quite difficult to fly purely on outside references in haze. If the viz is forecast below 10K but you are flying into sun, then you will have similar problems.

If you keep a good scan and are prepared, there is no reason why your trip shouldn't be successful, but I personally would still be flying as high as I possibly could whilst over water, rather than trying to find a horizon that may or maynot be present.

[Whirlybird]

I don't think I ever said, and certainly didn't mean to say, that lack of instrument currency is not a problem...........However, instrument flying to the extent required to fly and navigate straight and level is not at all hard.

IO540,
It was the second comment I was disagreeing with, not the first. No, it's not hard per se. But if you're inexperienced, it becomes hard as soon as you get tired. And that can happen after a very short period, which could be exacerbated by nervousness due to being over water and able to see...absolutely nothing. And ATC are sure to want a position report from you at just that time, adding to the workload. I'm not saying it's impossible; it's not; I've done it. Just to be very cautious, that's all. There's more to this sort of situation than at first appears.