Wind limit
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Wind limit
I had planned a short flight this morning to keep my hand in until my new licence arrives.
Rang club - Wind actual 250 /23 kts,forecast 250/25 gusting 35 kts.
We would be using Runway 25
Then spoke to CFI who said tongue in cheek "I can handle it, can you?"
I thought I could but there would be lttle point in flying as it would be extremely bumpy and not very useful to me.
Then started thinking,is there a "down the runway limit" ?
Called my next door neighbour who is an airline captain ,he thought there was no down runway limit,only crosswind limits.
Any thoughts on this?
Lister
Rang club - Wind actual 250 /23 kts,forecast 250/25 gusting 35 kts.
We would be using Runway 25
Then spoke to CFI who said tongue in cheek "I can handle it, can you?"
I thought I could but there would be lttle point in flying as it would be extremely bumpy and not very useful to me.
Then started thinking,is there a "down the runway limit" ?
Called my next door neighbour who is an airline captain ,he thought there was no down runway limit,only crosswind limits.
Any thoughts on this?
Lister
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Well - you will need to be moving forward for landing and take off!
We have an effective limit of 25kts as we need to taxi around to and from the hangar, and we will have an uncontrollable aircraft when taxying crosswind in winds over 20kts
Add to that the possible effect of low-level turbulence from buildings, trees and the topology of the area, and strong winds are just not good for low-time pilots (and some older cowardly ones, like me)
We have an effective limit of 25kts as we need to taxi around to and from the hangar, and we will have an uncontrollable aircraft when taxying crosswind in winds over 20kts
Add to that the possible effect of low-level turbulence from buildings, trees and the topology of the area, and strong winds are just not good for low-time pilots (and some older cowardly ones, like me)
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Depends what you're in - taildraggers spring to mind:
Taxying:
The first problem you get, depending on the tailwheel / skid arrangement, is tayxing across / down wind. You find yourself at the upwind end of the airfield and, without wing walkers, no real chance of getting to the hangar at the downwind end.
Putting the tail down:
Take a 40kt wind.... While you might get the aircraft down on the ground and stopped in one piece you may find you are sitting there with the tail up - lower it and you fly (although you have 0kts ground speed you do have 40kts airspeed).
A fairly extreme example - but possible.
OC619
Taxying:
The first problem you get, depending on the tailwheel / skid arrangement, is tayxing across / down wind. You find yourself at the upwind end of the airfield and, without wing walkers, no real chance of getting to the hangar at the downwind end.
Putting the tail down:
Take a 40kt wind.... While you might get the aircraft down on the ground and stopped in one piece you may find you are sitting there with the tail up - lower it and you fly (although you have 0kts ground speed you do have 40kts airspeed).
A fairly extreme example - but possible.
OC619
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Thank for the replies.
Aircraft PA28-180,so no tailwheel probs but still a lot of crosswind on taxi.
Topology,yep had thought of that as just before threshold on 25 there is a high pile of rubble and large stack of straw bales,it's bumpy there even in a strong breeze.
Wind may be dropping now,so may have a look later,but I'm also aware of the "Sucker's gap",when although it is a rubbish day,it appears OK at the time,you get airborne and it clamps down again, by then it's too late!
I like and remember the advice from the CFI "Rather be down here wishing you were up there ,than up there wishing you were down here"
Have "booked" some potential slots for tomorrow if there are cancellations and wx OK.
Lister
Aircraft PA28-180,so no tailwheel probs but still a lot of crosswind on taxi.
Topology,yep had thought of that as just before threshold on 25 there is a high pile of rubble and large stack of straw bales,it's bumpy there even in a strong breeze.
Wind may be dropping now,so may have a look later,but I'm also aware of the "Sucker's gap",when although it is a rubbish day,it appears OK at the time,you get airborne and it clamps down again, by then it's too late!
I like and remember the advice from the CFI "Rather be down here wishing you were up there ,than up there wishing you were down here"
Have "booked" some potential slots for tomorrow if there are cancellations and wx OK.
Lister
Originally Posted by OC619
Take a 40kt wind.... While you might get the aircraft down on the ground and stopped in one piece you may find you are sitting there with the tail up - lower it and you fly (although you have 0kts ground speed you do have 40kts airspeed).
As a low-houred coward (yellow streak so wide I don't need a hi-vis jacket) I work on the if there's any doubt there's no doubt principle.
Last edited by J.A.F.O.; 19th May 2006 at 22:29.
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Lister, also being in Norfolk, I can assure you that you made the right decision today! It only takes one bad experience in these type of gusting conditions to really dent the confidence.
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Taxiing at 25kt is indeed the problem for many types, but remember that the reported surface wind is usually measured at the top of a pole, 5m or 10m high. So the actual surface wind (affecting a taxiing aircraft) may be a lot less.
The real risk which remains even with strong wind down the runway is wind shear. You always get wind shear (unless there isn't any wind to start with).
With 25kt reported surface wind, gusting 35kt, you will probably have 40-50kt at say 100-200ft. And more higher up but that's irrelevant. This means you could see a loss of airspeed of 25kt or more on short final. In a TB20, I don't have a problem with this (flying the final at 80kt+, 59kt stall speed in that configuration, and having 250HP to play with) but I know a man who bent a very expensive 250HP plane landing in what was probably 50kt's worth of wind shear.
Basically you have to be flying the final approach at a slightly higher speed, say 10-20kt higher, and be ready to put a lot of power on in the last few seconds.
The real risk which remains even with strong wind down the runway is wind shear. You always get wind shear (unless there isn't any wind to start with).
With 25kt reported surface wind, gusting 35kt, you will probably have 40-50kt at say 100-200ft. And more higher up but that's irrelevant. This means you could see a loss of airspeed of 25kt or more on short final. In a TB20, I don't have a problem with this (flying the final at 80kt+, 59kt stall speed in that configuration, and having 250HP to play with) but I know a man who bent a very expensive 250HP plane landing in what was probably 50kt's worth of wind shear.
Basically you have to be flying the final approach at a slightly higher speed, say 10-20kt higher, and be ready to put a lot of power on in the last few seconds.
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Go very careful here. I think your type has a x-wind component rating of 17kts. Be VERY wary of a 25kt down runway wind dropping off on short final or just after your wheels lift the ground. You may want to consider a 1 stage of flap landing and come in a lot faster than usual. Also you may wanty to rotate at a lot higher IAS.
Why don't you see if you can get an instructor to come up with you - there are lots of interesting effects with strong winds that you may want pointed out to you (like being half way downwind whilst still pointing crosswind in the circuit). I learned a few VERY interesting things about taxing, takeoff, circuits and landings in stong winds from my instructor!
Why don't you see if you can get an instructor to come up with you - there are lots of interesting effects with strong winds that you may want pointed out to you (like being half way downwind whilst still pointing crosswind in the circuit). I learned a few VERY interesting things about taxing, takeoff, circuits and landings in stong winds from my instructor!
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You may want to consider a 1 stage of flap landing and come in a lot faster than usual.
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How about the following suggestion for a down the runway limit for your aircraft
If the headwind exceeds your TAS (or VX/VY then you will be flying backwards !
Bit extreme but threw it in for some fun !
If the headwind exceeds your TAS
(or VX/VY then you will be flying backwards !Bit extreme but threw it in for some fun !
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A great day in Norfolk
Lister,
I'm not very impressed with the weather 2 miles east of you either!
I had 2 sorties planned for today - the first to take a neighbouring farmer's son for a quick lunchtime loop and swoop. The second to pre-position my jet in Nottingham in preparation for tomorrow, my first display of the season at Conningsby.
I've scrubbed the first - funny old thing, lunch on me again!
The second is marginal but if the weather looks better for tomorrow, I'll wazz up there first thing.
Stik
I'm not very impressed with the weather 2 miles east of you either!
I had 2 sorties planned for today - the first to take a neighbouring farmer's son for a quick lunchtime loop and swoop. The second to pre-position my jet in Nottingham in preparation for tomorrow, my first display of the season at Conningsby.
I've scrubbed the first - funny old thing, lunch on me again!
The second is marginal but if the weather looks better for tomorrow, I'll wazz up there first thing.
Stik
Windshear gets more interesting with higher winds. I've seen 20 kt. fluctuations on final.
Once arrived at a field with a humongous North crosswind spilling over a ridge just North of the E-W runway and proceeded to have my fillings shaken loose on final
Just about full rudder to keep it straight; then as I came below the trees, the crosswind disappeared and I had to make a very fast uncorrection
The airport operator knew I was coming and drove out to watch the "fun"
Once arrived at a field with a humongous North crosswind spilling over a ridge just North of the E-W runway and proceeded to have my fillings shaken loose on final
Just about full rudder to keep it straight; then as I came below the trees, the crosswind disappeared and I had to make a very fast uncorrection
The airport operator knew I was coming and drove out to watch the "fun"
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Originally Posted by Lister Noble
I had planned a short flight this morning to keep my hand in until my new licence arrives.
Rang club - Wind actual 250 /23 kts,forecast 250/25 gusting 35 kts.
We would be using Runway 25
Then spoke to CFI who said tongue in cheek "I can handle it, can you?"
I thought I could but there would be lttle point in flying as it would be extremely bumpy and not very useful to me.
Then started thinking,is there a "down the runway limit" ?
Called my next door neighbour who is an airline captain ,he thought there was no down runway limit,only crosswind limits.
Any thoughts on this?
Lister
Rang club - Wind actual 250 /23 kts,forecast 250/25 gusting 35 kts.
We would be using Runway 25
Then spoke to CFI who said tongue in cheek "I can handle it, can you?"
I thought I could but there would be lttle point in flying as it would be extremely bumpy and not very useful to me.
Then started thinking,is there a "down the runway limit" ?
Called my next door neighbour who is an airline captain ,he thought there was no down runway limit,only crosswind limits.
Any thoughts on this?
Lister
Dean
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Originally Posted by big.al
= Old Buckenham perhaps?
Deano,
I had already made my decsision not to fly before posting,I was interested to see if there were any limits for head-on runway winds.
Incidentally no one flew at Old Buck today.
Lister
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Lister,
Flying in a wind like that is horrible, even if you can cope. And with all due respect, as a very new PPL, I'd be somewhat surprised if you could cope. I tend to only fly in anything over 15G25 if I absolutely have to; ie, if I'm up there already! Don't push your limits that much, or if you really want to, take an instructor with you.
Flying in a wind like that is horrible, even if you can cope. And with all due respect, as a very new PPL, I'd be somewhat surprised if you could cope. I tend to only fly in anything over 15G25 if I absolutely have to; ie, if I'm up there already! Don't push your limits that much, or if you really want to, take an instructor with you.
Lister,
Sorry not to see your smiling mug around today.
As has already been mentioned, it's not just the flying of the a/c one has to worry about - there's the question of manouvering on the ground. I vividly remember sharing the cockpit of a Canberra T4 on the ground in high winds before the rudder and aileron locks were inserted by the ground crew ... it took the combined effort of the pilot and myself to restrain the control column and rudder bar to stop them thrashing us and breaking bones. Trundling around with the wind coming from all quarters could be mighty 'entertaining'
Sorry not to see your smiling mug around today.
As has already been mentioned, it's not just the flying of the a/c one has to worry about - there's the question of manouvering on the ground. I vividly remember sharing the cockpit of a Canberra T4 on the ground in high winds before the rudder and aileron locks were inserted by the ground crew ... it took the combined effort of the pilot and myself to restrain the control column and rudder bar to stop them thrashing us and breaking bones. Trundling around with the wind coming from all quarters could be mighty 'entertaining'
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Whirls,point taken.
I didn't mean to sound cocky or that I would fly with it gusting 35 kts.
I meant I think I could cope with 23 kts straight up the runway,in fact I have but I am inexperienced and would not choose to do it.
Also as many have pointed out the taxiing is a real problem.
Zorbs,sorry to have missed you and the cheery folk singer!
On a totally different note,I lost my wallet in Diss yesterday,didn't realise until I got home when Mrs N told me someone had handed it into the police,with all my credit/debit cards and £60 intact.
Restores one's faith in human kind,and of course I sent a letter of thanks to the person with a token of my gratitude.
Lister
I didn't mean to sound cocky or that I would fly with it gusting 35 kts.
I meant I think I could cope with 23 kts straight up the runway,in fact I have but I am inexperienced and would not choose to do it.
Also as many have pointed out the taxiing is a real problem.
Zorbs,sorry to have missed you and the cheery folk singer!
On a totally different note,I lost my wallet in Diss yesterday,didn't realise until I got home when Mrs N told me someone had handed it into the police,with all my credit/debit cards and £60 intact.
Restores one's faith in human kind,and of course I sent a letter of thanks to the person with a token of my gratitude.
Lister
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Originally Posted by Lister
Restores one's faith in human kind
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Lister's Bulging Wallet
SkyHawk, skim? He said he lost it in Diss; it was handed in to plod-u-like because they'd never seen one before!
Oi'll swap ye 6 tatoes fur a raaaaahhbet!
Stik - about to get airborne from rural Norfolk for a trip back in time - Lincolnshire!!
Oi'll swap ye 6 tatoes fur a raaaaahhbet!
Stik - about to get airborne from rural Norfolk for a trip back in time - Lincolnshire!!