Buyer Beware
Thread Starter
Buyer Beware
An advert in eBay for a very low houred (sub 1,000) C172 has raised a point I was unaware of with eBay.
I thought that if you asked the seller a question it went onto the bottom of the advert for all to see. I've asked the seller twice if the aircraft has been involved in any accidents or heavy landings and have yet to see a reply.
I deliberately asked this questions as a fellow Ppruner sent me a picture of this very aircraft taken after a heavy landing, at Barton (I'm not sure if the landing was at Barton or the photo was taken at Barton or indeed if both are true). In the photo the aircraft is minus all wings, vertical tail, noseleg, engine and propellor so I think it's fairly safe to say that it was a bit of an "arrival". Now I'm sure that all the repair work is logged and has been done to a suitable standard, however I do think it's a bit disingenuous of the seller to deliberately avoid answering the question.
I thought that if you asked the seller a question it went onto the bottom of the advert for all to see. I've asked the seller twice if the aircraft has been involved in any accidents or heavy landings and have yet to see a reply.
I deliberately asked this questions as a fellow Ppruner sent me a picture of this very aircraft taken after a heavy landing, at Barton (I'm not sure if the landing was at Barton or the photo was taken at Barton or indeed if both are true). In the photo the aircraft is minus all wings, vertical tail, noseleg, engine and propellor so I think it's fairly safe to say that it was a bit of an "arrival". Now I'm sure that all the repair work is logged and has been done to a suitable standard, however I do think it's a bit disingenuous of the seller to deliberately avoid answering the question.
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow
I thought that if you asked the seller a question it went onto the bottom of the advert for all to see.
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and at the top of the hits is.......
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...nct_entry=true
Ebay is nothing to do with this though. It's always a case of buyer beware.
Particularly hard with planes, which will have been maintained by numerous outfits, often long gone, with records lost or disposed of, and it's really really easy for a dishonest seller to suppress any part of the maintenance history. Even most honest sellers will be unable to deliver a complete maintenance history. Just the same as a car.
That's the way the business works - the firms hang onto the records in the hope this will force the customer to always come back to them. I always get copies - even if it means photographing the contents of a ring binder and putting the pics on a CD.
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...nct_entry=true
Ebay is nothing to do with this though. It's always a case of buyer beware.
Particularly hard with planes, which will have been maintained by numerous outfits, often long gone, with records lost or disposed of, and it's really really easy for a dishonest seller to suppress any part of the maintenance history. Even most honest sellers will be unable to deliver a complete maintenance history. Just the same as a car.
That's the way the business works - the firms hang onto the records in the hope this will force the customer to always come back to them. I always get copies - even if it means photographing the contents of a ring binder and putting the pics on a CD.
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IO540 - absolutely agree - but in this case according to G-INFO, the chap selling it has owned it from new, and therefore is completely aware of its past.
The ebay link by the way is:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cessna-172M_W0...QQcmdZViewItem
The ebay link by the way is:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cessna-172M_W0...QQcmdZViewItem
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G-info suggests that he has owned it since 2003.
My money would be on a 1973 172 that was bent in late 1973/ early '74 and then forgotten about until 2003 when it was sold to the current owner who (had it) rebuilt and is now selling it.
My main thought would be corrosion!
My money would be on a 1973 172 that was bent in late 1973/ early '74 and then forgotten about until 2003 when it was sold to the current owner who (had it) rebuilt and is now selling it.
My main thought would be corrosion!
Thread Starter
Ridgerunner nothing wrong with buying off ebay as long as there is a full inspection of both the aircraft and the logs before committing to a bid. I know one Ppruner who bought a wonderfully built (if slightly bizarre) single seater a while back.
IO540 totally agree that it's not eBay's concern but it would sharpen up the seller if the question was automatically posted and sat there for all the world to see.
Flap 40 sounds like a good theory. If it (or something similar) is the case then it could open up a whole can of worms
IO540 totally agree that it's not eBay's concern but it would sharpen up the seller if the question was automatically posted and sat there for all the world to see.
Flap 40 sounds like a good theory. If it (or something similar) is the case then it could open up a whole can of worms
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Buyer beware
I have spoken to the owner of this a/c and while he does aknowledge that it has previously been struck by another a/c in a gale resulting in the original damage and later having a prop strike which is the reason for the new engine he refuses to put this information onto his ebay ad.
I wonder why ?
I am considering putting my own ad on the site bringing this information to light. would this be fair ?
I wonder why ?
I am considering putting my own ad on the site bringing this information to light. would this be fair ?
Supercalafragilistic
expialidotiousIsAVeryLong
WordAndIStillOnlyPaid£5
expialidotiousIsAVeryLong
WordAndIStillOnlyPaid£5
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just place a 500k bid so it sells to you, then drop out due to information being withheld then leave negative feedback to warn others
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Dont forget Ebay is an Auction site as IO540 says. If you bought this A/c without a survey then you pays ur money you take your chances.
There should be a statement in the log books that say exactly what has been repaired/replaced.
There should be a statement in the log books that say exactly what has been repaired/replaced.
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If you feel strongly enough, you can look at the bidder list, click on the bidder names and send them a message (if you are an ebay member). 51 mins to run on the auction. You could just point them to this thread (I don't feel strongly enough - buying an aircraft cheap on ebay you are either nuts or you know a lot about what you are doing and reckon you can make a good judgement!
BW
BW
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"There should be a statement in the log books that say exactly what has been repaired/replaced"
Which "log books"?
The maintenance record for an aircraft can take many forms. For a start, on a G or N you will have an airframe logbook, engine logbook, propeller logbook (if VP prop). The first two logbooks are supposed to have flights written up in them. On a Part 91 N the prop logbook has details of maintenance work only (no flight times).
Then, and here we are looking for a smashed airframe, you can have as many airframe logbooks as you like. So, the one with the details of the relevant work can simply go "missing".
Then, a lot of stuff is never in the logbooks, because the maintenance firm types up a loose sheet logbook entry. You are supposed to attach that into the relevant current logbook, but you don't have to. There is no requirement for a logbook to look like a "book" at all; a collection of loose sheets will do and in fact the records kept by maintenance firms are just that; a load of sheets in a ring binder.
Also some work, much more so on planes that are privately owned by 1 person, can be done without a logbook entry of any sort. It can be for good reasons; for example, Lycoming's QA is so atrocious now that some American buyers of new planes are sending off their engines to be taken apart and have bits properly balanced, but without any paperwork trail because since the work is not being done by Lyco's distributor chain, it would invalidate the warranty. Or work can be done without a paper trail for all sorts of other reasons.
On top of that, I know for a fact that most owners never bother to collect maintenance records together. A 30 year old plane will have been worked on by probably dozens of firms, and there is no way to find out who they were. Google might reveal some dodgy photos taken by nosey plane spotters which might enable you to ask pointed questions about witheld information, but if it's not on google it won't be found.
When you buy a used plane, it's just like buying a house. You buy what you can see and what you can inspect, and you take a chance on the rest.
The other thing is to think about why buy such an old plane.
The reason planes last as long as they do (decades) is simply because owners are forced to pour money into them. Interrupt the flow of cash and the CofA is lost, and you have a lump of metal worth its scrap value. The firm doing the annual CofA has you over a barrel; they can refuse to issue a CofA because they have discovered an extra VHF antenna which somebody fitted years ago and whose fitting was not properly writtenup, and a CAA AAN obtained for it. Your plane is now worthless until you stump up for whatever work they feel is needed.
Over many years, the amount spent on keeping it going will be much more than it was bought for.
This means that on average every penny you save on buying a plane say 30 years old, you will spend on extra maintenance over the next 15 years what you would have spent if you bought a plane say 15 years old.
Which "log books"?
The maintenance record for an aircraft can take many forms. For a start, on a G or N you will have an airframe logbook, engine logbook, propeller logbook (if VP prop). The first two logbooks are supposed to have flights written up in them. On a Part 91 N the prop logbook has details of maintenance work only (no flight times).
Then, and here we are looking for a smashed airframe, you can have as many airframe logbooks as you like. So, the one with the details of the relevant work can simply go "missing".
Then, a lot of stuff is never in the logbooks, because the maintenance firm types up a loose sheet logbook entry. You are supposed to attach that into the relevant current logbook, but you don't have to. There is no requirement for a logbook to look like a "book" at all; a collection of loose sheets will do and in fact the records kept by maintenance firms are just that; a load of sheets in a ring binder.
Also some work, much more so on planes that are privately owned by 1 person, can be done without a logbook entry of any sort. It can be for good reasons; for example, Lycoming's QA is so atrocious now that some American buyers of new planes are sending off their engines to be taken apart and have bits properly balanced, but without any paperwork trail because since the work is not being done by Lyco's distributor chain, it would invalidate the warranty. Or work can be done without a paper trail for all sorts of other reasons.
On top of that, I know for a fact that most owners never bother to collect maintenance records together. A 30 year old plane will have been worked on by probably dozens of firms, and there is no way to find out who they were. Google might reveal some dodgy photos taken by nosey plane spotters which might enable you to ask pointed questions about witheld information, but if it's not on google it won't be found.
When you buy a used plane, it's just like buying a house. You buy what you can see and what you can inspect, and you take a chance on the rest.
The other thing is to think about why buy such an old plane.
The reason planes last as long as they do (decades) is simply because owners are forced to pour money into them. Interrupt the flow of cash and the CofA is lost, and you have a lump of metal worth its scrap value. The firm doing the annual CofA has you over a barrel; they can refuse to issue a CofA because they have discovered an extra VHF antenna which somebody fitted years ago and whose fitting was not properly writtenup, and a CAA AAN obtained for it. Your plane is now worthless until you stump up for whatever work they feel is needed.
Over many years, the amount spent on keeping it going will be much more than it was bought for.
This means that on average every penny you save on buying a plane say 30 years old, you will spend on extra maintenance over the next 15 years what you would have spent if you bought a plane say 15 years old.
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Reserve not met at £18,100, so no sale. As has been said, buyer beware - a lot of people (including me) have been quite sanctimonious about this auction. I presume none of us have ever sold a car / bike knowing of some defect that we haven't totally declared?
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If you are going to buy any Aeroplane it's always wise to have a survey carried out, spending £300-£500 now can save £££££'s in the long run.
Does that mean that Aircraft under 15 years old don't break. 
I know what you are saying IO540 but a lot of Owners/Groups cant afford the newer end of the market, but a well maintained 30 yr old aircraft may cost a little more to run but should prove just as reliable after all its only a 172. It goes without saying that if you are fortunate enough to be able to own your own Aircraft sooner or later you are going to get a large bill be it a 10 or 30 yrs old. 
And no im not having a dig
This means that on average every penny you save on buying a plane say 30 years old, you will spend on extra maintenance over the next 15 years what you would have spent if you bought a plane say 15 years old.
I know what you are saying IO540 but a lot of Owners/Groups cant afford the newer end of the market, but a well maintained 30 yr old aircraft may cost a little more to run but should prove just as reliable after all its only a 172. It goes without saying that if you are fortunate enough to be able to own your own Aircraft sooner or later you are going to get a large bill be it a 10 or 30 yrs old. And no im not having a dig
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The new auction thing
Ebay is like a mutating bug.
My attention was drawn recently to a WW1 replica aircraft for sale in the USA.
The vendor had set up an Ebay-auction type website inviting bids for the thing.
Such an arrangement precludes anybody with any sense from bothering to go see it, because all you are doing is making the decision on whether to bid/ how much, and spending thousands of pounds doing it. I told him I wouldn't be bidding.
All I wanted to do was the old fashioned thing of 'check it over, make an acceptable offer, press the flesh, job done.'
Needless to say, other interested parties weren't interested in playing that game either - it didn't sell.
He has contacted me since pleading with me to negotiate.
I'll let the dust settle and contact him in a few months. If its gone, it's gone. If it hasn't sold then we can maybe do the thing the way I wanted to do it in the first place.
Whilst Ebay has its place, it aint the place to sell aircraft.
Personally, I find it riddled with counterfeit and mis-described rubbish.
I see stuff on there with my company logo all over it. In many cases, its stuff we have never sold, or anything like. Ebay don't give a stuff about our protestations.
Hairyplane
My attention was drawn recently to a WW1 replica aircraft for sale in the USA.
The vendor had set up an Ebay-auction type website inviting bids for the thing.
Such an arrangement precludes anybody with any sense from bothering to go see it, because all you are doing is making the decision on whether to bid/ how much, and spending thousands of pounds doing it. I told him I wouldn't be bidding.
All I wanted to do was the old fashioned thing of 'check it over, make an acceptable offer, press the flesh, job done.'
Needless to say, other interested parties weren't interested in playing that game either - it didn't sell.
He has contacted me since pleading with me to negotiate.
I'll let the dust settle and contact him in a few months. If its gone, it's gone. If it hasn't sold then we can maybe do the thing the way I wanted to do it in the first place.
Whilst Ebay has its place, it aint the place to sell aircraft.
Personally, I find it riddled with counterfeit and mis-described rubbish.
I see stuff on there with my company logo all over it. In many cases, its stuff we have never sold, or anything like. Ebay don't give a stuff about our protestations.
Hairyplane
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100LL
I get the joke OK
Normally, on planes under 10-15 years old, you get low operating cost because the airframe parts haven't yet started to go. I think this is true for standard aluminium airframes e.g. Cessnas, Pipers, Socata TBs, etc.
I have a 4 year old machine and my non-avionics bill is in 3 figures so far, total. About 1/10 of what is often spent on a 30 year old C150 Annual.
A lot of groups, especially the larger ones like 15-25 people, would be well advised to dip just very slightly deeper in their pockets and then they could be flying something really nice, rather than pouring money in every month.
Avionics is a big problem, and normally hangarage pays for itself every single year. Of course it will also pay for itself on the airframe, but you find that out for 10-15 years...
I get the joke OK
Normally, on planes under 10-15 years old, you get low operating cost because the airframe parts haven't yet started to go. I think this is true for standard aluminium airframes e.g. Cessnas, Pipers, Socata TBs, etc.
I have a 4 year old machine and my non-avionics bill is in 3 figures so far, total. About 1/10 of what is often spent on a 30 year old C150 Annual.
A lot of groups, especially the larger ones like 15-25 people, would be well advised to dip just very slightly deeper in their pockets and then they could be flying something really nice, rather than pouring money in every month.
Avionics is a big problem, and normally hangarage pays for itself every single year. Of course it will also pay for itself on the airframe, but you find that out for 10-15 years...