Italy - check and re-check your plans !!
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Italy - check and re-check your plans !!
Just a note to anyone planning a European trip involving Italy. There seems to be a huge problem with the availability of AVGAS, so make sure you check and re-check before you set off !
Almost got caught out this weekend. Several of the smaller airports which are supposed to carry 100LL had (mysteriously) simultaneously "run out", and most of the larger airports in the North don't have it at all. We ended up having to abandon the last planned day of our trip, and instead had a 200Km divert to fuel up.
Still thoroughly recommend the area (some fantastic scenery and great flying) but make sure you don't get stuck - it'll ruin your day !
Mind you, complete oxygen failure at FL155 over the Alps is pretty well guaranteed to b*gger your day up as well, but that's another story !
FF
Almost got caught out this weekend. Several of the smaller airports which are supposed to carry 100LL had (mysteriously) simultaneously "run out", and most of the larger airports in the North don't have it at all. We ended up having to abandon the last planned day of our trip, and instead had a 200Km divert to fuel up.
Still thoroughly recommend the area (some fantastic scenery and great flying) but make sure you don't get stuck - it'll ruin your day !
Mind you, complete oxygen failure at FL155 over the Alps is pretty well guaranteed to b*gger your day up as well, but that's another story !
FF
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I stick to proper international airports in these "dodgy" places (have to for Customs anyway) and routine contact them beforehand by phone/fax to check PPR and fuel.
Some have bizzare requirements e.g. Corfu LGKR will accept incoming flights with a 24hr PPR according to notams, but locally the idle officials want 5 days PPR.
The info I have on smaller fields in Italy is that there are local rules preventing sale of avgas to visitors.
The Jepp Bottlang guide cannot be relied on for Avgas or Customs, I have found. And phone numbers usually too. Probably because the airfields concerned feed rubbish to their local AIP compiler.
Tell us about your O2 FF, would be very relevant.
Some have bizzare requirements e.g. Corfu LGKR will accept incoming flights with a 24hr PPR according to notams, but locally the idle officials want 5 days PPR.
The info I have on smaller fields in Italy is that there are local rules preventing sale of avgas to visitors.
The Jepp Bottlang guide cannot be relied on for Avgas or Customs, I have found. And phone numbers usually too. Probably because the airfields concerned feed rubbish to their local AIP compiler.
Tell us about your O2 FF, would be very relevant.
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Hi Stiknruda,
Hope the looping et al is keeping you busy can't comment on the 90's Avgas plant in Italy... but you may/not have seen a few other posts on pprune regarding world shortage of piston engine tonic... in a nutshell: posts kicked off with some locals in S.Africa saying they'd all run out with no hope for weeks to come; a lot disbelieving the posts but on the whole generally confirmed.
There are supposedly 3-4 refineries in the world making the tonic; seasonally this is the point where they shut down for maintenance - coupled with Uncle's Sam's driving holiday season and sadly even without the Middle East being prone to internal/external tensions, shortages can ensue and prices typically go one way at this point in the year... I understand from reading the other posts that we're currently down to 1 or 2 max of the refineries open for business.
Despite all the moans I don't think Stik you'll have to worry too much as to how to use strong thermals to complete your loops this summer
All the best.
EG
Hope the looping et al is keeping you busy
can't comment on the 90's Avgas plant in Italy... but you may/not have seen a few other posts on pprune regarding world shortage of piston engine tonic... in a nutshell: posts kicked off with some locals in S.Africa saying they'd all run out with no hope for weeks to come; a lot disbelieving the posts but on the whole generally confirmed. There are supposedly 3-4 refineries in the world making the tonic; seasonally this is the point where they shut down for maintenance - coupled with Uncle's Sam's driving holiday season and sadly even without the Middle East being prone to internal/external tensions, shortages can ensue and prices typically go one way at this point in the year... I understand from reading the other posts that we're currently down to 1 or 2 max of the refineries open for business.
Despite all the moans I don't think Stik you'll have to worry too much as to how to use strong thermals to complete your loops this summer
All the best.
EG
Last edited by egld0624; 25th Apr 2006 at 15:18.
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Is that what happened?
The reality is that the impressive performance data of say a Lancair, 220kt TAS at 25k ft, implies a high oxygen flow rate which cuts the endurance (with say 3 people) to a lot less than the fuel tank. They don't tell you that in the sales brochure.
But a portable o2 kit, at 15k ft, with cannulas, should last for a lot more than 1.5 hours.
The reality is that the impressive performance data of say a Lancair, 220kt TAS at 25k ft, implies a high oxygen flow rate which cuts the endurance (with say 3 people) to a lot less than the fuel tank. They don't tell you that in the sales brochure.
But a portable o2 kit, at 15k ft, with cannulas, should last for a lot more than 1.5 hours.
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IO540
Could I be wrong, but if you consider Italy a "dodgy" place you might just as well avoid visiting it.
Please rememeber not everyone on this forum is English.
If I misinterpreted the meaning and reference of the "dodgy" word, then I apologise.
Thank you
Could I be wrong, but if you consider Italy a "dodgy" place you might just as well avoid visiting it.
Please rememeber not everyone on this forum is English.
If I misinterpreted the meaning and reference of the "dodgy" word, then I apologise.
Thank you
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IO 540
Remember although you have a big Turbo charged donkey up the front you are still limited on how much weight you can lift. A oxygen bottle in a light aircraft can only be of a certain size and weight. And the one used in the Turbo model Cessna aircraft do take a load off your MTOW. Pressurization takes care of all these problems.
L
Remember although you have a big Turbo charged donkey up the front you are still limited on how much weight you can lift. A oxygen bottle in a light aircraft can only be of a certain size and weight. And the one used in the Turbo model Cessna aircraft do take a load off your MTOW. Pressurization takes care of all these problems.
L
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L-Band :
Are you quoting from actual experience ? I ask because the POH quotes 6-7 hours for single usage from a full tank. There were actually three of us on board, and as we were all using the same gear, that should have given us at least 2 hours according to the POH.
The O2 ran out after no more than about 20 mins ...
IO540, you're absolutely right about the Bottlang reliability (at least in this case), but as for using "proper international airports", the problem is that many of them don't sell AVGAS at all. None of the large airports near to where I was had any.
FF
Edited to say L-Band has PM from me ...
The oxygen tanks on the Cessna T210 do not last very long, i think 1.5 hrs at that hieght
The O2 ran out after no more than about 20 mins ...
IO540, you're absolutely right about the Bottlang reliability (at least in this case), but as for using "proper international airports", the problem is that many of them don't sell AVGAS at all. None of the large airports near to where I was had any.
FF
Edited to say L-Band has PM from me ...
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Was the system full? I ask this because the gauge on these are rubbish and the only way to make sure is to put a oxygen rig on with a external gauge.
Just recently checked on a Cessna T182 to see about the oxygen useage and witth 2 up it last 2.5 hours depending on altitude.
BTW sold that a/c new back in 1978 and was the first Cessna 210 i had flown in 1984, nice to see it back.
L
Just recently checked on a Cessna T182 to see about the oxygen useage and witth 2 up it last 2.5 hours depending on altitude.
BTW sold that a/c new back in 1978 and was the first Cessna 210 i had flown in 1984, nice to see it back.
L
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raviolis
Should have used a smiley
FF
This is all obvious speculation but
a) is the tank gauge working
b) is there a leak
c) did the o2 actually run out (i.e. did you verify this with a blood oxygen meter) - with cannulas it's hard to tell if it's coming out at all
A 20min endurance from a full tank indicates a massive leak.
I did find out the avgas problem, e.g. Venice Tessera has Customs but no avgas, San Nicolo has avgas but no Customs. I think one has to plan the route around avgas
LB
The weight of the bottle is much the same empty or full so may as well always fly with it full; that's what I do. Never know when you might need it. With an IR, O2 gives you much more freedom in Europe (to get VMC on top) and FF needed it for terrain clearance. It's not like full-TKS which I know many people fly around with without any fluid in it.
Should have used a smiley
FF
This is all obvious speculation but
a) is the tank gauge working
b) is there a leak
c) did the o2 actually run out (i.e. did you verify this with a blood oxygen meter) - with cannulas it's hard to tell if it's coming out at all
A 20min endurance from a full tank indicates a massive leak.
I did find out the avgas problem, e.g. Venice Tessera has Customs but no avgas, San Nicolo has avgas but no Customs. I think one has to plan the route around avgas
LB
The weight of the bottle is much the same empty or full so may as well always fly with it full; that's what I do. Never know when you might need it. With an IR, O2 gives you much more freedom in Europe (to get VMC on top) and FF needed it for terrain clearance. It's not like full-TKS which I know many people fly around with without any fluid in it.
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Flying in Italy
Already posted on another thread, posting here for who missed it
Big airports are busy, often you must check before and book parking space, lots of form filling can be required, handling fees can be expensive.
Smaller airports are much more easy going. Bear in mind that most Aeroclubs are closed on Mondays.
Avgas is available at big and small airports quite easily up north. A few airstrips also have fuel. Down south, after Rome, fuel is not so readily available. Salerno, Reggio Calabria, Catania, Brindisi always have availability, but the last two are big airports with all the connected hassles.
Lots of the minor airports where Aeroclubs operate can't sell fuel to third parties for tax/fiscal reasons (wish we could).
Current price of avgas (25/4): 2.20 Euro/lt
All flights in Italy require a flight plan unless:
a) you are operating exclusively in G space.
b) the aeroplane is equipped with an ELT (emergency locator transmitter). In this case you just go.
In TMA there are standard VFR routes (most 1000ft agl) with VRPs.
ATC likes the following standard of communication:
Rome Info, G-ABCD, PA-28, Vfr with ELT on board, departed XXXX destination YYYY, currently x000 ft abeam zzzz, next reporting point kkkk, estimated at 00.00 hours.
Italian AIP: http://www.enav.it/aip/aip_login_it.html
Official list of airstrips:
http://www.enac-italia.it/ELENCOAVIOSETTEMBRE2005.pdf
Unofficial list of airports and airfields:
http://www.aeroclubmilano.it/manzlang/aeroporti.pdf
http://www.aeroclubmilano.it/manzlang/aviosuperfici.pdf
If during your flights in Italy you receive bad service or extra expensive charges at airports, please contact AOPA Italy (www.aopa.it) and let them know.
Details on flying in specific parts of Italy can be asked on the AOPA Italy forum.
Hope this helps.
Big airports are busy, often you must check before and book parking space, lots of form filling can be required, handling fees can be expensive.
Smaller airports are much more easy going. Bear in mind that most Aeroclubs are closed on Mondays.
Avgas is available at big and small airports quite easily up north. A few airstrips also have fuel. Down south, after Rome, fuel is not so readily available. Salerno, Reggio Calabria, Catania, Brindisi always have availability, but the last two are big airports with all the connected hassles.
Lots of the minor airports where Aeroclubs operate can't sell fuel to third parties for tax/fiscal reasons (wish we could).
Current price of avgas (25/4): 2.20 Euro/lt
All flights in Italy require a flight plan unless:
a) you are operating exclusively in G space.
b) the aeroplane is equipped with an ELT (emergency locator transmitter). In this case you just go.
In TMA there are standard VFR routes (most 1000ft agl) with VRPs.
ATC likes the following standard of communication:
Rome Info, G-ABCD, PA-28, Vfr with ELT on board, departed XXXX destination YYYY, currently x000 ft abeam zzzz, next reporting point kkkk, estimated at 00.00 hours.
Italian AIP: http://www.enav.it/aip/aip_login_it.html
Official list of airstrips:
http://www.enac-italia.it/ELENCOAVIOSETTEMBRE2005.pdf
Unofficial list of airports and airfields:
http://www.aeroclubmilano.it/manzlang/aeroporti.pdf
http://www.aeroclubmilano.it/manzlang/aviosuperfici.pdf
If during your flights in Italy you receive bad service or extra expensive charges at airports, please contact AOPA Italy (www.aopa.it) and let them know.
Details on flying in specific parts of Italy can be asked on the AOPA Italy forum.
Hope this helps.
