Spin recovery no longer taught
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Best chance of avoiding the stall/spin is to think 'AoA' when you fly - something perhaps beyond the syllabus of the PPL.
QDM
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flybymike and greeners
Interesting:-
It was 30 years ago but if I remember aright the standard technique was:-
Close throttle
Centralise the controls
Stick progressively forward
Full opposite rudder until the rotation stops
Recover from the dive.
What happened in this case was that the instructor was dissatisfied with my namby-pamby attempts at getting it into a full-blooded spin and did an entry from a very nose up attitude, with power, and with full control deflections (stick back in one corner and full opposite rudder).
When I was unable to effect a recovery she tried and failed too. What did it was, as Alan Cassidy's article suggests, a blast of power.
My take FWIW is this:-
Recovery requires you to unstall the wing, which in turn requires the AoA to be reduced. The pupose of the progressive forward stick is to get the nose down and the tail up so the thing starts to pick up some forward speed and the AoA is reduced below the stalling angle.
In our case we had diddly squat airflow over the controls and a high rate of rotation trying to keep us flat. With little rearward airflow the elevators were ineffective. A blast of propwash over the depressed elevators lifted the tail and got the recovery started.
If you look at a Chipmunk or Tiger Moth you will see some horizontal strakes forward of the tailplane, sometimes misleadingly referred to as anti-spin strakes. My understanding is not that they prevent spins, rather that they give a bit more horizontal tail area, helping to lift the tail when the airflow is predominantly upward, as it is in a flat spin.
Mike
Interesting:-
It was 30 years ago but if I remember aright the standard technique was:-
Close throttle
Centralise the controls
Stick progressively forward
Full opposite rudder until the rotation stops
Recover from the dive.
What happened in this case was that the instructor was dissatisfied with my namby-pamby attempts at getting it into a full-blooded spin and did an entry from a very nose up attitude, with power, and with full control deflections (stick back in one corner and full opposite rudder).
When I was unable to effect a recovery she tried and failed too. What did it was, as Alan Cassidy's article suggests, a blast of power.
My take FWIW is this:-
Recovery requires you to unstall the wing, which in turn requires the AoA to be reduced. The pupose of the progressive forward stick is to get the nose down and the tail up so the thing starts to pick up some forward speed and the AoA is reduced below the stalling angle.
In our case we had diddly squat airflow over the controls and a high rate of rotation trying to keep us flat. With little rearward airflow the elevators were ineffective. A blast of propwash over the depressed elevators lifted the tail and got the recovery started.
If you look at a Chipmunk or Tiger Moth you will see some horizontal strakes forward of the tailplane, sometimes misleadingly referred to as anti-spin strakes. My understanding is not that they prevent spins, rather that they give a bit more horizontal tail area, helping to lift the tail when the airflow is predominantly upward, as it is in a flat spin.
Mike
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To hoots of derision I got hold of an AoA indicator for the cub, but it has never been fitted.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ht=bacon+saver
Four years on, I still think it would be a fascinating, useful and instructive exercise. Here is a good article on AoA indicators:
http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Ins...AttackInd.html
QDM
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ht=bacon+saver
Four years on, I still think it would be a fascinating, useful and instructive exercise. Here is a good article on AoA indicators:
http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Ins...AttackInd.html
QDM
Last edited by QDMQDMQDM; 19th Apr 2006 at 16:16.
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It was 30 years ago but if I remember aright the standard technique was:-
Close throttle
Centralise the controls
Stick progressively forward
Full opposite rudder until the rotation stops
Recover from the dive.
Close throttle
Centralise the controls
Stick progressively forward
Full opposite rudder until the rotation stops
Recover from the dive.
I think you will find you should swap the "Stick forward" and "Full opposite rudder" round to get the correct sequence. Also control centralised comes after the spin stops though the stick should normaly be central (i.e. no aileron) as it is moved forward.
Close throttle
Full opposite rudder
Stick progressively forward until the rotation stops.
Centralise the controls
Recover from the dive.
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I think the key comment here is that spin training should be linked with the type of aircraft flown. In most training types it is difficult or virtually impossible to encourage the aircraft to spin. This being the case there seems little point teaching or even demonstrating a recovery from a situation that is highly unlikely to happen.
Practically since very few pilots train on their own type and even then when they do they are likely to be benign there would sem to be no justification for including spin training in the syllabus.
However, there are types on which I would suggest spin training should be mandatory even if the intention is not to aero. Fujis for example are aerobatic - +6, -4 and cleared for most basic manoeuvers however the stall is very benign with almost no wing drop. Unless the pilot knows exactly what he is doing they are difficult to spin. Compare and contrast this with an Extra for example - the spin whilst predictable is more likely to "catch out" the untrained.
Of course if you have any intention what so ever of flying aeros you must undertake spinning training at the very least and you should regularly spin the aircraft. Know the recovery and entry for your type, it is very dangerous to assume they are all the same or one recovery technique will always work. The standard recovery will work on most type, but that is not good enough.
Finally if you want to spin, whether you are training for your PPL or not, excercise some caution about who you get to demonstrate a spin and ensure they are using a "suitable" aircraft. You will either hate it or love it
, but it will be an experience.
Practically since very few pilots train on their own type and even then when they do they are likely to be benign there would sem to be no justification for including spin training in the syllabus.
However, there are types on which I would suggest spin training should be mandatory even if the intention is not to aero. Fujis for example are aerobatic - +6, -4 and cleared for most basic manoeuvers however the stall is very benign with almost no wing drop. Unless the pilot knows exactly what he is doing they are difficult to spin. Compare and contrast this with an Extra for example - the spin whilst predictable is more likely to "catch out" the untrained.
Of course if you have any intention what so ever of flying aeros you must undertake spinning training at the very least and you should regularly spin the aircraft. Know the recovery and entry for your type, it is very dangerous to assume they are all the same or one recovery technique will always work. The standard recovery will work on most type, but that is not good enough.
Finally if you want to spin, whether you are training for your PPL or not, excercise some caution about who you get to demonstrate a spin and ensure they are using a "suitable" aircraft. You will either hate it or love it
, but it will be an experience.
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"tin parachute"
I was lucky to do my PPL on Morane MS885, and now fly my own Socata Rallye 150. Except PZL Koliber I have never flown any other aricraft, and don't wish to...
The above mentioned family of aircraft is almost impossible to get into spin. The automatic slats pop out as soon as you try AoA, which would make you stall or spin. But one of my CFI, test pilot for PZL, managed to spin a Koliber, but recovery was almost impossible then...
So, I never trained any spin, I never expect to be in one, but therefore I never wish to fly any other machine, than my Rallye... (Maybe a Cirrus with chute).
So I will stick to my "tin parachute" rather than do spin training...
The above mentioned family of aircraft is almost impossible to get into spin. The automatic slats pop out as soon as you try AoA, which would make you stall or spin. But one of my CFI, test pilot for PZL, managed to spin a Koliber, but recovery was almost impossible then...
So, I never trained any spin, I never expect to be in one, but therefore I never wish to fly any other machine, than my Rallye... (Maybe a Cirrus with chute).
So I will stick to my "tin parachute" rather than do spin training...
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that you use rudder to stop the spin and you use rudder to pick the wing up when the wing drops.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...ly__g_fors.cfm
Summary:
An instructor and his student were conducting a training flight when the aircraft was seen to enter a spin. The aircraft was still in a spin when it impacted the ground. There was no evidence of a mechanical problem; however, it is possible that the engine might have stopped during the spin. Whilst it was not possible to establish what the instructor planned to do on this flight, the investigation concluded that the aircraft probably entered an unintentional spin during an exercise involving oscillatory stalling. This particular exercise is not part of the UK Private Pilot’s Licence syllabus. As this exercise is considered inappropriate for ab initio flying training, a recommendation has been made to the CAA to ensure that flying instructors do not include oscillatory stalling during early flying training.
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Originally Posted by wombat13
I would add is that you are not in the mindset for spinning when it happens, thus you are not in the mindset of recovery.
To the pilot who isn't flying (thinking - or has the mindset of) AoA, the instinct is to pull back - the very worst thing you can do.
SSD
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The aeros pilot thinks AoA all the time, including during that base-to-final turn. It doesn't guarantee it'll never happen mainly because light aeroplanes don't have AoA indicators - they seem to be the preserve of fast jets and Concorde. There's quite q few instruments on the Chippy panel I'd gladly swap for an AoA indicator.
SSD[/QUOTE]
SSD You have an AoA indicator in every aircraft you fly- it's called the stick/yoke, the wing will stall with it in the same position regarless of speed/nose attitude/stall warner/buffet/any other symptom you care to mention.
There are threads about stalling and spinning in the FI forum which dispel moist of the myths - some of which re-appear here.
I don't propose to unpick all of them, but if you only remember this - if when pulling the stick back the nose doesn't pitch up then you are stalled- (works the other way upside down) - then you have the basis of all you need to know.
Strongly recomend some lessons with an instructor to sort out any doubts/fears. I believe Greeners runs a good outfit.
As for unspinable 'tame' trainers, my FI examiner demoed quite a nice one in a Warrior 3 up on my test..
PF
SSD[/QUOTE]
SSD You have an AoA indicator in every aircraft you fly- it's called the stick/yoke, the wing will stall with it in the same position regarless of speed/nose attitude/stall warner/buffet/any other symptom you care to mention.
There are threads about stalling and spinning in the FI forum which dispel moist of the myths - some of which re-appear here.
I don't propose to unpick all of them, but if you only remember this - if when pulling the stick back the nose doesn't pitch up then you are stalled- (works the other way upside down) - then you have the basis of all you need to know.
Strongly recomend some lessons with an instructor to sort out any doubts/fears. I believe Greeners runs a good outfit.
As for unspinable 'tame' trainers, my FI examiner demoed quite a nice one in a Warrior 3 up on my test..
PF
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Originally Posted by pilgrim flyer
SSD You have an AoA indicator in every aircraft you fly- it's called the stick/yoke, the wing will stall with it in the same position regarless of speed/nose attitude/stall warner/buffet/any other symptom you care to mention.
if when pulling the stick back the nose doesn't pitch up then you are stalled- (works the other way upside down) - then you have the basis of all you need to know.
SSD
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I wasn't going to post again on this thread as so much good stuff has been wrtitten and a few myths have been proven false...................
But PilgrimFly has it totally right:-
I can only stall my aeroplane at two stick positions, regardless of attitude and speed and can therefore only spin it IF the rudder input is so configured to ameliarate spinning.
Inverted spinning from an errect entry ( stick fwd to stall and full rudder) is quite an interesting and certainly memorable ride! Inverted spinning from inverted is quite enough, generally.
The comments about about "ailerons neutral" in previous posts are very obviously aeroplane specific instructions. In my particular mount, I generally accelerate the spin (errect or inverted) with in-spin aileron; flatten it with out-spin aileron and to recover if I have moved from central to out-spin or in-spin - I usually combine opposite rudder with opposite aileron then aileron neutral, before popping the stick forward
Very obviously if I've applied power to flatten the spin then this has to come off before I start anything in the preceeding paragraph.
For competition spins there are ways of ending the spin exactly on heading that I couldn't possibly divulge here!
Stik
But PilgrimFly has it totally right:-
I can only stall my aeroplane at two stick positions, regardless of attitude and speed and can therefore only spin it IF the rudder input is so configured to ameliarate spinning.
Inverted spinning from an errect entry ( stick fwd to stall and full rudder) is quite an interesting and certainly memorable ride! Inverted spinning from inverted is quite enough, generally.
The comments about about "ailerons neutral" in previous posts are very obviously aeroplane specific instructions. In my particular mount, I generally accelerate the spin (errect or inverted) with in-spin aileron; flatten it with out-spin aileron and to recover if I have moved from central to out-spin or in-spin - I usually combine opposite rudder with opposite aileron then aileron neutral, before popping the stick forward
Very obviously if I've applied power to flatten the spin then this has to come off before I start anything in the preceeding paragraph.
For competition spins there are ways of ending the spin exactly on heading that I couldn't possibly divulge here!
Stik
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When I said normally "no ailerons" in my post I should of course have added that this was:-
a) Standard spin recovery and the POH should be read and complied with when flying any particular aircraft.
b) may be used to modify the spin - but only when you know what you are doing (or with someone that does).
a) Standard spin recovery and the POH should be read and complied with when flying any particular aircraft.
b) may be used to modify the spin - but only when you know what you are doing (or with someone that does).
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Tin parachute again
The Rallye's aeilerons remain effective right into the stall, and in theory you could just "falling leaf" to the ground and walk away - urban myth says this has been done in the past anyway.
Interestingly my Rallye is cleared for spins (as well as loops, rolls, stall turns and a few others....)........
Interestingly my Rallye is cleared for spins (as well as loops, rolls, stall turns and a few others....)........
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Originally Posted by englishal
The Rallye's aeilerons remain effective right into the stall, and in theory you could just "falling leaf" to the ground and walk away - urban myth says this has been done in the past anyway.
Interestingly my Rallye is cleared for spins (as well as loops, rolls, stall turns and a few others....)........
Interestingly my Rallye is cleared for spins (as well as loops, rolls, stall turns and a few others....)........
the "falling leaf" landings were demontrated many times by Socata test
pilots at air shows.
Maybe your Rallye is a special one...
(...mine is plain mean of transportation...)
Last edited by Ptkay; 23rd Apr 2006 at 10:45.
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MC, was that the recovery technique that included unstrapping and holding yourself against the instrument panel to move the CoG forward? I've heard it works, not one for the fainthearted though.