IMC Rating in 'F' Reg. Aircraft
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IMC Rating in 'F' Reg. Aircraft
Does anyone know whether you can exercise the priviliges of an UK IMC rating, in UK airspace whilst flying a French registered aircraft?
Cheers! :-)
Cheers! :-)
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I once wrote to the CAA asking them if the IMCR privileges were valid in an N-reg.
Their very clear reply was that as far as they are concerned the IMCR privileges are not limited to aircraft reg and they added, quite correctly, that it was up to the registration authority to decide.
In your case it is the DGAC.
You would need to write to them, setting out very clearly the situation. I believe a number of people have done this already and the reply was along the lines "if it's OK with the CAA it's OK with us" but you still need that in writing, or at the very least get the person's name and write to them to confirm the conversation.
The reply I got from the FAA was that it was OK, but that isn't relevant to your question.
Their very clear reply was that as far as they are concerned the IMCR privileges are not limited to aircraft reg and they added, quite correctly, that it was up to the registration authority to decide.
In your case it is the DGAC.
You would need to write to them, setting out very clearly the situation. I believe a number of people have done this already and the reply was along the lines "if it's OK with the CAA it's OK with us" but you still need that in writing, or at the very least get the person's name and write to them to confirm the conversation.
The reply I got from the FAA was that it was OK, but that isn't relevant to your question.
The real question is can you fly an F Reg aeroplane on your UK Licence. The French want to issue a validation to even a JAA licence before you can use it in France! If the licence is acceptable, then the privileges on it should be acceptable too.
In the case of an N Reg you simply read FARS, You need a copy of the French ANO or equivalent. In theory under JAR-FCL you should be able to do it but; thats theory. The danger is that if its not legal, the now mandatory insurance would be invalid.
In the case of an N Reg you simply read FARS, You need a copy of the French ANO or equivalent. In theory under JAR-FCL you should be able to do it but; thats theory. The danger is that if its not legal, the now mandatory insurance would be invalid.
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The problem, Whopity, is that neither the FARs nor the French ANO are going to state whether the UK CAA issued IMC Rating is valid in their aircraft registrations.
That's why one has to contact the relevant authorities, describing what an IMC Rating is (in case they don't know) and ask them if its privileges can be exercised in the aircraft registration in question.
The position is much simpler when it comes to basic day VFR PPL privileges which an ICAO license holder might have, but the IMC Rating and, for that matter and not wishing to start yet another endless thread, any night privileges are.... something else.
That's why one has to contact the relevant authorities, describing what an IMC Rating is (in case they don't know) and ask them if its privileges can be exercised in the aircraft registration in question.
The position is much simpler when it comes to basic day VFR PPL privileges which an ICAO license holder might have, but the IMC Rating and, for that matter and not wishing to start yet another endless thread, any night privileges are.... something else.
FAR 61.3 states quite clearly that when the aircraft is operated in a foreign country, a current pilot licence issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used.
If that licence contains additional ratings such as an IR an IMC rating or a Night qualification, then so long as they are current, they may be used without reference to anyone. FAR 61.3 only requires that they be valid in the state where the flight is conducted and be current!
If that licence contains additional ratings such as an IR an IMC rating or a Night qualification, then so long as they are current, they may be used without reference to anyone. FAR 61.3 only requires that they be valid in the state where the flight is conducted and be current!
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Any pilot holding a licence delivered by an EC country can fly F reg aircrafts in France - as set in the "Arrete du 24 Mars 1997 relatif aux conditions d'utilisations des aeronefs civils en aviation general" published in the French "Journal Officiel" on 9 April 1997, page 5416!!!
I have been flying in France on UK PPL for a number of years and I always carry a copy of the above page with my licence just in case les douaniers ou gendarmes look for trouble, and I have never had any (trouble).
With regards to the IMC in and F reg in UK airspace, I would assume it's possible. But, IMC in F or G reg aircrafts in French airspace (can be very useful but) is not valid
I have been flying in France on UK PPL for a number of years and I always carry a copy of the above page with my licence just in case les douaniers ou gendarmes look for trouble, and I have never had any (trouble).
With regards to the IMC in and F reg in UK airspace, I would assume it's possible. But, IMC in F or G reg aircrafts in French airspace (can be very useful but) is not valid
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Whopity, I happen to agree with you 100%. The disagreement would be based, IMV wholly, on a distinction between a "license" and a "rating", but I think 61.3 does refer to both. However, a great deal of pprune bandwidth has gone into this one already 
CBG, the IMCR eliminates the need to be in sight of the surface, this is valid worldwide, and I have this in writing from the CAA. Only the IFR privileges of the IMCR are limited to the UK. So an IMCR holder can fly in say France, above an overcast layer, VFR. A great deal of pprune bandwidth has gone into this one too, rather pointlessly
CBG, the IMCR eliminates the need to be in sight of the surface, this is valid worldwide, and I have this in writing from the CAA. Only the IFR privileges of the IMCR are limited to the UK. So an IMCR holder can fly in say France, above an overcast layer, VFR. A great deal of pprune bandwidth has gone into this one too, rather pointlessly
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An important point to bear in mind, just in case of problems, is that F-reg aircraft have to be specifically approved by the DGAC for flight in IFR. It is not enough just to carry the required equipment, as with a G-registered aeroplane.
Most reasonably well equipped French SEPs are classified for Night VFR, but not for IFR. Relatively few are certified for IFR in my experience.
Most reasonably well equipped French SEPs are classified for Night VFR, but not for IFR. Relatively few are certified for IFR in my experience.
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CBG & Whopity,
I too have been happily flying here in France in F-Reg's with my UK issued JAA-PPL for the last 4 years, and have never had any problems. When I initially tried to get my licence renewed here like the locals do, the local DGAC office wanted nothing to do with it and I have ever since delt solely with the CAA-FCL (and they could not have been more helpfull) using local instructors/doctors/examiners etc to sign everything off. Definitely never been asked to get any french validations....
However...due to wanting to be prepared for every eventuality...
Could you expand on the
a little? I've never heard of it and do you have a web-link to where I could find it... just in case....you never know when further ammunition..err .. I mean paperwork ...might come in handy.
Regards, SD..
I too have been happily flying here in France in F-Reg's with my UK issued JAA-PPL for the last 4 years, and have never had any problems. When I initially tried to get my licence renewed here like the locals do, the local DGAC office wanted nothing to do with it and I have ever since delt solely with the CAA-FCL (and they could not have been more helpfull) using local instructors/doctors/examiners etc to sign everything off. Definitely never been asked to get any french validations....
However...due to wanting to be prepared for every eventuality...
Could you expand on the
"Arrete du 24 Mars 1997 relatif aux conditions d'utilisations des aeronefs civils en aviation general" published in the French "Journal Officiel" on 9 April 1997, page 5416!!!
Regards, SD..
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A rating issued by a national authority valid worldwide? Not sure many countries would agree to that.
SD, the Journal Officiel has not put this thing online. I'll gladly fax it to you if you provide me with a fax number.
CBG
SD, the Journal Officiel has not put this thing online. I'll gladly fax it to you if you provide me with a fax number.
CBG
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This is not a licensing issue. JAR-FCL clearly says that ratings such as the IMC rating are limited to the airspace of the country which issued them ( no limit of registration).
JAR–FCL 1.017 Authorisations/Ratings for special purposes
Authorisations/Ratings for special purposes associated with a licence (e.g. IMC flying, towing, aerobatics, dropping of parachutists, etc.) may be established by the Authority in accordance with the requirements of that JAA Member State for use solely within that Member State’s airspace. The use of such an authorisation/rating in another JAA Member State’s airspace requires the prior agreement of the State(s) visited, except where a bilateral agreement exists.
JAR–FCL 1.175 Circumstances in which an IR(A) is required
(b) ..............National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.
It is an Operations issue.
Reference is ICAO Annex 6 Part 2 Clapter 9;
9.1.1 The pilot-in-command shall ensure that the licences of
each flight crew member have been issued or rendered valid
by the State of Registry, and are properly rated and of current
validity, and shall be satisfied that flight crew members have
maintained competence.
A JAR-FCL licence is rendered valid by the French Authorities but an IMC rating will not be. Thus OK to fly and F reg on a UK issued JAR-FCL licence but to fly IFR requires an IR.
There was supposed to be a JAR-OPS to resolve issues such as these for GA but it is still work in progress.
Regards,
DFC
JAR–FCL 1.017 Authorisations/Ratings for special purposes
Authorisations/Ratings for special purposes associated with a licence (e.g. IMC flying, towing, aerobatics, dropping of parachutists, etc.) may be established by the Authority in accordance with the requirements of that JAA Member State for use solely within that Member State’s airspace. The use of such an authorisation/rating in another JAA Member State’s airspace requires the prior agreement of the State(s) visited, except where a bilateral agreement exists.
JAR–FCL 1.175 Circumstances in which an IR(A) is required
(b) ..............National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.
It is an Operations issue.
Reference is ICAO Annex 6 Part 2 Clapter 9;
9.1.1 The pilot-in-command shall ensure that the licences of
each flight crew member have been issued or rendered valid
by the State of Registry, and are properly rated and of current
validity, and shall be satisfied that flight crew members have
maintained competence.
A JAR-FCL licence is rendered valid by the French Authorities but an IMC rating will not be. Thus OK to fly and F reg on a UK issued JAR-FCL licence but to fly IFR requires an IR.
There was supposed to be a JAR-OPS to resolve issues such as these for GA but it is still work in progress.
Regards,
DFC
