Please adivise: Logging of flight time question.

[Jbroey3]

Hello everyone,

I am an American pilot that has a friend from overseas (Italy) that has come
to "build time / gain training" to fullfill requirements of a school
that he is to attend in Spain.

He is a private pilot and does not hold an IR or multi-engine
rating.

I'm somewhat at a loss as to the correct answer to the questions that have arose.

The question below has been answered by the F.A.A side of things and the
result is "No he can not"
((As far as U.S. Regulations are concerened CFR 14, 61.51(e)(i)))

Here is the question:

QUESTION: Can a non-multi-engine rated private
pilot fly and log dual training received or PIC in a multi-engine aircraft
when the other pilot (safety pilot) holds only a commercial license? (ie, the
safety pilot is not a CFI/CFII/MEI)

He has been sharing his flying time (taking turns flying) with another pilot
here in America in a multi-engine aeroplane and has also been logging this
time in his logbook as PIC time to show he has been "trained" or to
show "aeronautical experience" etc.

He has not been flying "solo" in the multi-engine aeroplanes at anytime.

Will the J.A.A / J.A.R accept this time as authorized experience or
training??

If anyone can help me out with this, with reference as to why or why he is
not allowed to do what he is doing,.. that would would be wonderfull.

I don't want to see him waste money and time flying these aeroplanes only to
see that none of the time is valid/acceptable to the JAA side of things over
in spain.

Thank you in advance for any help that anyone may be able to give.

-Jbroey3

[Polarhero]

er.........

I think the only way to answer this in nice and easy........ NO! not a chance.

And one other item on top if he was to log it and the power that don't put two and two togeather you could end up in the

best of not trying to log it and just taking it as a bit of a help for the future.

[Piltdown Man]

Here's the simple answer, if you are unsure if you can log flight time, you generally can't. Not qualified and you are not receiving instruction, you are a passenger. Single pilot operation, only a single pilot (the one whose neck is on the line) logs all the time. Anything else is rinky-dink!

[Gnirren]

Originally Posted by Piltdown Man

Single pilot operation, only a single pilot (the one whose neck is on the line) logs all the time. Anything else is rinky-dink!

Simple yet incorrect, you can certainly log time if you're acting as safety pilot under FAA regulations. However in the above example the person is not qualified to act as safetypilot. Two multi-engine rated pilots with instrument privileges (as an example) can fly in VFR conditions, one under the hood and one looking for traffic. Both may log the flight time, of course the one under the hood may log instrument time simulated. If they fly IFR in IMC then the safety pilot is no longer required and therefor the pilot not flying at that point can't log time as safety pilot.

Trust me, this is done all year round in the US.

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by Jbroey3

He has been sharing his flying time (taking turns flying) with another pilot
here in America in a multi-engine aeroplane and has also been logging this
time in his logbook as PIC time to show he has been "trained" or to
show "aeronautical experience" etc.

I don't think he should even have been flying the aircraft. He is a passenger on the aircraft and is not allowed to manipulate the controls unless he's with an instructor. If he's been paying for this, then he's been caught out.

[-IBLB-]

Originally Posted by AerocatS2A

He is a passenger on the aircraft and is not allowed to manipulate the controls unless he's with an instructor.

Says who? He can fly no problem, as long as there is a qualified pilot on board in a control-seat.

[rudestuff]

Let me get this straight - he's not rated in the aircraft, he's not flying with an instructor - but he's logging PIC??
Did he log in pencil by any chance?
I hope he went to some nice places because it looks like he was paying to be a passenger.
I know you already have the FAA answer, but i feel the need to chime in...
As I understand it in FAA land, you can only log PIC in a machine for which you are rated (ie multi engine in this case)
If he had been flying with an MEI he could log dual recieved - but to fly with a PPL or CPL is to be a passenger.
IF HE HAD MULTI RATING then he would be appripriately rated in the aircraft - and could legally fly as safety pilot and log the time. (with the other guy under the hood of course)
There is a loophole though - if the aircraft has an experimental certificate you're a test pilot and so no category or class rating is required - just a PPL.
(meaning an airplane SE PPL can fly a ME - or a helicopter/balloon/gyro for that matter - as long as its experimental) weird but cool huh?!

[Julian]

Rudestuff is correct.

If you friend does not hold an ME rating and his companion was not an MEI then all his 'flying' is dead money!.

If both pilots held appropriate ratings then:

In JAA land only one person can log PIC at a time so they could split flying 50/50 and each log half the time.

In FAA land one can fly and the other can log safety pilot and therefore both log all time.

Julian.

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by -IBLB-

Says who? He can fly no problem, as long as there is a qualified pilot on board in a control-seat.

Well, it depends on your country's rules. In Australia you are not allowed to "manipulate the controls of an aircraft in flight" unless you are the "pilot assigned for duty in the aircraft" or "a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft."

Everyone seems to do it of course, but it's illegal here all the same.

Edit: Had a quick look through the FARs and couldn't find a similar regulation, so he's probably fine as far as that goes, still a waste of time and money though.

[flyboyike]

Originally Posted by rudestuff

As I understand it in FAA land, you can only log PIC in a machine for which you are rated (ie multi engine in this case)

That is correct. The only exception is a one-time endorsement from your MEI to go take your ME checkride. The endorsement will authorize you to act as PIC on an aircraft for which you are NOT yet rated, but only for the purposes of a checkride.

[Whopity]

The facts:
JAA or Italian National PPL no IR or ME privileges.
Flying US aeroplane in the USA

Therefore he is under FAA Rules! Must have a US validation of Italian Licence, that sets the privileges as those of his Italian licence, so no IF no ME logged except as a student for which he needs an instructor.

On returning to Europe, he can only claim hours for which he is rated, or training at a JAA approved school recognised by the Italian DGAC. Or credit for ICAO licence.

[Jamongris]

This is all very interesting to me as the logging of flight time is something that has never really been explained to me.

So, and forgive me for going off on a slight tangent, could someone explain under JAA rules flying in Europe with a JAA PPL and with another pilot with the same qualifications, what does one correctly log ?

[dublinpilot]

So, and forgive me for going off on a slight tangent, could someone explain under JAA rules flying in Europe with a JAA PPL and with another pilot with the same qualifications, what does one correctly log ?

The pilot who is in command of the flight logs the time as P1. Nobody else logs anything for that flight. There can only be one pilot in command. That's assuming neither pilot is a qualified instructor giving instruction.

The exception is an aircraft whos certification requires a multi pilot crew, but it's extremely unlikley that a PPL will be flying one of those.

dp

[172driver]

Originally Posted by dublinpilot

The pilot who is in command of the flight logs the time as P1. Nobody else logs anything for that flight. There can only be one pilot in command.dp

Correct, however as far as I understand it, the PIC can change during the flight. In this case (assuming both are qualified and legal to fly the a/c), each logs the flight spent as PIC. This is certainly the case in FAA land and I'm pretty sure also in JAA territory.

[-IBLB-]

Originally Posted by dublinpilot

The pilot who is in command of the flight logs the time as P1. Nobody else logs anything for that flight. There can only be one pilot in command. That's assuming neither pilot is a qualified instructor giving instruction.

The exception is an aircraft whos certification requires a multi pilot crew, but it's extremely unlikley that a PPL will be flying one of those.

dp

This thread is going a little off topic, but for all of you reading and contributing to this thread, please realize that there are different regulations in different countries. Under FAA Regulations, there are exceptions where 2 rated pilots can log PIC. Also, there is on the FAA side a difference between being pilot in command, and logging pilot in command.

To get back to the original question:

Will the J.A.A / J.A.R accept this time as authorized experience or training??

No, since no training has taken place. Not under FAA nor under JAA regulations.

Correct, however as far as I understand it, the PIC can change during the flight. In this case (assuming both are qualified and legal to fly the a/c), each logs the flight spent as PIC. This is certainly the case in FAA land and I'm pretty sure also in JAA territory.

Yes, also under JAA regs that is possible. As long as the times both pilots log, combine to be not more than the total flight time.

[Gnirren]

Under FAA for example a multi-engine instructor training a person already rated on the aircraft. In that case the MEI can log pic because he's providing instruction, and the student can log pic because he's rated on the aircraft.

[-IBLB-]

Originally Posted by Gnirren

Under FAA for example a multi-engine instructor training a person already rated on the aircraft. In that case the MEI can log pic because he's providing instruction, and the student can log pic because he's rated on the aircraft.

Yes, the same goes for a CFII who is teaching a PPL no IR student, or a CFI doing a Flght Review with someone who is still current and has a valid Flight Review still. Same goes for 2 PPL holders, one of which being the safety pilot, and agreed to be PIC before the flight.

[B2N2]

JB3, looks like your friend payed a lot of money for time that he cannot log.
He can not even log PIC with an Instructor, only training received, since he does not hold a Multi engine rating.
Where did he get the idea that he could do this anyway?