Passenger or Flight Crew ?
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Passenger or Flight Crew ?
Hello,
Is there anyone out there that can tell me when a person can act as flight crew and not be a passenger as far as the mandatory passenger insurance goes.
In my log book there is provision for a person to book T1 in it, this person doing radio calls and holds an Rt license,does this count as flight crew and then not be classed as a "Passenger"
I fly Group A,Microlight,and also Gyroplane and there been a problem with insurance cover for the latter as far as passengers go could this be a legal way around the legislation regarding insurance.
Thanks.
Is there anyone out there that can tell me when a person can act as flight crew and not be a passenger as far as the mandatory passenger insurance goes.
In my log book there is provision for a person to book T1 in it, this person doing radio calls and holds an Rt license,does this count as flight crew and then not be classed as a "Passenger"
I fly Group A,Microlight,and also Gyroplane and there been a problem with insurance cover for the latter as far as passengers go could this be a legal way around the legislation regarding insurance.
Thanks.
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Only "required flight crew" could log as flight crew I would assume. You would only be "required" to operate the radio (or other bits) on a multi crew aircraft (or possibly during instrument training), otherwise you'd be a passenger. Thats the way I understand it anyway...
Join Date: Jul 1999
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I am no expert, but I believe that you can only operate as a "Co Pilot" on an aircraft that is certificated as a multi crew aeroplane. Even if your passenger holds an FRTL he is still a passenger who just happens to be legally entitled to operate an aeronautical radio. This is why if two pilots fly together (under UK ANO) there can only be (as far as I can see) one P1. Naturally if the other pilot is an instructor, then the instructor may log P1, and the "student" may also log the same hour as P/UT.
This is different in the US. Under FAA regs, even a checkflight with an instructor may be logged as P1, for the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Naturally, I am assuming here that in this instance the person undergoing the check is already a quialified PPL.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
This is different in the US. Under FAA regs, even a checkflight with an instructor may be logged as P1, for the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Naturally, I am assuming here that in this instance the person undergoing the check is already a quialified PPL.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
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Yep, I think the others are right. If the plane doesn't requires 2 pilots, and for your average PPL it's unlikely you'll be flying one that does, then only one person can log the time - the PIC is P1.
The other guy, no matter what license he holds or what he does during the flight, is a passenger. I think you could agree to share the flying, so one of you is P1 for half the flight and the other is P1 for the second, but the only way 2 people can log the time is the situation SKYYACHT mentions where one is an instructor - in that case he is P1 and the other pilot is PUT.
I had this conversation with someone who was recording his time as P2 when he was in the right hand seat and doing the radio, navigating etc., but that is not allowed.
The other guy, no matter what license he holds or what he does during the flight, is a passenger. I think you could agree to share the flying, so one of you is P1 for half the flight and the other is P1 for the second, but the only way 2 people can log the time is the situation SKYYACHT mentions where one is an instructor - in that case he is P1 and the other pilot is PUT.
I had this conversation with someone who was recording his time as P2 when he was in the right hand seat and doing the radio, navigating etc., but that is not allowed.
A private light aircraft is certified for one crew, the pilot, with the exception of training where there may be another pilot (Instructor) on board.
Article 150 defines a passenger as any person other than aircrew.
The UK FRTOL is defined in Schedule 8 as a Flight Crew Licence however; ICAO Annex 1 no longer recognises a Flight Radiotelephone Operator as a stand alone flight crew member. The FRTOL is normally an endorsement to an existing flight crew licence to facilitate operation of the radio. The UK may be unique in issuing the FRTOL to persons who do not hold another flight crew licence; they must keep a log (Art 35) in order to record the experience necessary for revalidation but, as they are not required for the certified operation of the aircraft they cannot claim to be crew members and in accordance with Art 150 are passengers.
Article 150 defines a passenger as any person other than aircrew.
The UK FRTOL is defined in Schedule 8 as a Flight Crew Licence however; ICAO Annex 1 no longer recognises a Flight Radiotelephone Operator as a stand alone flight crew member. The FRTOL is normally an endorsement to an existing flight crew licence to facilitate operation of the radio. The UK may be unique in issuing the FRTOL to persons who do not hold another flight crew licence; they must keep a log (Art 35) in order to record the experience necessary for revalidation but, as they are not required for the certified operation of the aircraft they cannot claim to be crew members and in accordance with Art 150 are passengers.
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What would be the situation if the pilot did not hold a FRTOL, and wished to enter class D airspace? As two way coms and a clearance are required (outside of special ops), would the radio man be a required crewmember?
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OVC002
IMHO this is an unlikely scenario. The UK PPL requirements dictate that a student must pass 7 ground exams, one of which is VHF Communications. The comms exam consists of the written theory, and also a VHF practical, conducted by an R/T examiner. I suppose that it is technically feasible, that a pilot could learn at a school in a non radio equipped aeroplane, but again, I feel that this would be somewhat unlikely today.
I know that someone will, in all probability quote the "I learnt in my own non-radio aeroplane, but these individuals are very much in the minority.
However, were your hypothetical flight to occur, the answer is still NO, your passenger with a FRTOL is still a passenger not a member of the operating crew. Operating crew capacity is dictated by the certification of the aeroplane. The fact that the pilot does not hold an R/T licence, merely precludes him from entering Class D airspace.
Having said that, would ATC actually know that the voice on the R/T isnt t actually the pilot flying the aeroplane. I think that this would perhaps only become evident if there were an incident or accident.
Anyway - thats my five pennorth....
Cheers
IMHO this is an unlikely scenario. The UK PPL requirements dictate that a student must pass 7 ground exams, one of which is VHF Communications. The comms exam consists of the written theory, and also a VHF practical, conducted by an R/T examiner. I suppose that it is technically feasible, that a pilot could learn at a school in a non radio equipped aeroplane, but again, I feel that this would be somewhat unlikely today.
I know that someone will, in all probability quote the "I learnt in my own non-radio aeroplane, but these individuals are very much in the minority.
However, were your hypothetical flight to occur, the answer is still NO, your passenger with a FRTOL is still a passenger not a member of the operating crew. Operating crew capacity is dictated by the certification of the aeroplane. The fact that the pilot does not hold an R/T licence, merely precludes him from entering Class D airspace.
Having said that, would ATC actually know that the voice on the R/T isnt t actually the pilot flying the aeroplane. I think that this would perhaps only become evident if there were an incident or accident.
Anyway - thats my five pennorth....
Cheers
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This would be quite complex if it came to court.
You are correct to say that a radio operator can be part of the flight crew designated as required by the pilot in command but there are a number of related issues that could cause you problems;
1. If you have your own radio licence and thus a radio operator was not required, it could be argued that you were simply avoiding the insurance requirement.
2. The estate of your deceased radio operator will sue your ass off because they do not see the joy of flying and avoiding insurance in the 20/20 hindsight of a nasty accident.
3. You will have to provide some insurance for the crew including yourself and the other crew member and the insurance company will ask very searching questions. No insurance - reread point 2.
The only time that I have come across large crews in something like a C172 is when avoiding airport passenger charges - Was that 1 crew and 3 passengers sir? - NO Mr. Airport official, It is 4 crew - pilot, radio operator, navigator and the navigator's instructor here are their licenses..................round to the duty free and then customs..........Was that 4 crew sir?- NO Mr Customs officer it is one crew and 3 pasengers and here is their full duty free allowances and my 1/2 allowance purchased.
What is the problem you are having with insurance - price or not able to find anyone willing to provide it?
Regards,
DFC
You are correct to say that a radio operator can be part of the flight crew designated as required by the pilot in command but there are a number of related issues that could cause you problems;
1. If you have your own radio licence and thus a radio operator was not required, it could be argued that you were simply avoiding the insurance requirement.
2. The estate of your deceased radio operator will sue your ass off because they do not see the joy of flying and avoiding insurance in the 20/20 hindsight of a nasty accident.
3. You will have to provide some insurance for the crew including yourself and the other crew member and the insurance company will ask very searching questions. No insurance - reread point 2.
The only time that I have come across large crews in something like a C172 is when avoiding airport passenger charges - Was that 1 crew and 3 passengers sir? - NO Mr. Airport official, It is 4 crew - pilot, radio operator, navigator and the navigator's instructor here are their licenses..................round to the duty free and then customs..........Was that 4 crew sir?- NO Mr Customs officer it is one crew and 3 pasengers and here is their full duty free allowances and my 1/2 allowance purchased.
What is the problem you are having with insurance - price or not able to find anyone willing to provide it?
Regards,
DFC
OVC002
No the Pilot would be required to hold a FRTOL! To have a radio operator it would have to be agreed with the relevant Authority, some Russian Aircraft still carry them as do some experimental flights in the form of Flight Test Observers.
SKYYACHT
The RTF Practical is not a mandatory part of the PPL! It is only required for a FRTOL which remains a separate licence. A JAA PPL can still be issued with no RT Priviledges! All FRTOLs are National, there is no JAA equivalent licence, though the privileges may be apended to a JAA Licence.
No the Pilot would be required to hold a FRTOL! To have a radio operator it would have to be agreed with the relevant Authority, some Russian Aircraft still carry them as do some experimental flights in the form of Flight Test Observers.
SKYYACHT
The RTF Practical is not a mandatory part of the PPL! It is only required for a FRTOL which remains a separate licence. A JAA PPL can still be issued with no RT Priviledges! All FRTOLs are National, there is no JAA equivalent licence, though the privileges may be apended to a JAA Licence.
