Mobile phone use
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Mobile phone use
Been following another thread on radio failure 
and noticed comments 'call up the airfield on your mobile'. I understood the use of a moby was illegal in the air.( even so,seems a better idea than orbiting trying to get ground control to realise your predicament).
Are you likely to get a knackering for use of the mobile when you book in?
Modelman
and noticed comments 'call up the airfield on your mobile'. I understood the use of a moby was illegal in the air.( even so,seems a better idea than orbiting trying to get ground control to realise your predicament).Are you likely to get a knackering for use of the mobile when you book in?
Modelman
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You have got to be kidding!
I have 2 mobile phones, one works when I’m flying, one doesn’t, guess which one I take with me?
Do you honestly believe anyone will question how you called the airport?
Regards,
W.B.
I have 2 mobile phones, one works when I’m flying, one doesn’t, guess which one I take with me?
Do you honestly believe anyone will question how you called the airport?
Regards,
W.B.
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My understanding
I haven't started my PPL yet nor read up on law. However, I suspect you'll find that it depends on the aircraft type (I may be wrong).
My understanding is that you are not permitted to use mobiles on modern passenger aircraft because the mobile phone signal could, theoretically, interfere with the guidance computers (especially on take off and landing).
{edit}Correction: I just remembered: it does interfere. I heard a tale from somebody who got a ride in a cockpit. The pilot demonstrated what happened when a mobile was switched on onboard -- one of the instruments showed a slight uncertainty in its reading. The theoretical part is that they could, potentially, cause the computers to make bigger errors.
2nd edit:
In an on-line IT magazine, there's a short report on the problem posed by mobiles in some aircraft.
My understanding is that you are not permitted to use mobiles on modern passenger aircraft because the mobile phone signal could, theoretically, interfere with the guidance computers (especially on take off and landing).
{edit}Correction: I just remembered: it does interfere. I heard a tale from somebody who got a ride in a cockpit. The pilot demonstrated what happened when a mobile was switched on onboard -- one of the instruments showed a slight uncertainty in its reading. The theoretical part is that they could, potentially, cause the computers to make bigger errors.
2nd edit:
In an on-line IT magazine, there's a short report on the problem posed by mobiles in some aircraft.
Last edited by HiFranc; 3rd Mar 2006 at 06:41.
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This one will run and run, due to lack of evidence.
Firstly, a mobile phone (when not used for calls/texts) transmits only about every 10 minutes, and this happens only if connected to a network. Plus very briefly when it is switched off, and when it first connects after being switched on. So any sort of continuous interference seen will be from something else, or from somebody making a call.
Secondly, any plane that is affected to the degree some fear is going to crash - simply because, short of a strip search of everybody, one cannot guarantee there are no phones accidentally left on. I bet every 747 is packed with phoned that are left on. The systems must be designed with better immunity than that.
The issue with messing up the network is a separate one. It seems to work OK however, perhaps because not many people do it. I normally find mobiles work OK below about 3000ft but I use them for texts only.
Some time ago I used a Nokia 6210 as a GSM modem (9.6k) for internet access, with a PDA, to get weather while airborne. It actually worked once over France at about 8000ft but it was never much good in the UK above about 2000ft. The TCP/IP connection would break after a minute or two in any case. GPRS is a dead loss.
So I would not rely on a mobile for a speech call, in any airborne circumstances.
Firstly, a mobile phone (when not used for calls/texts) transmits only about every 10 minutes, and this happens only if connected to a network. Plus very briefly when it is switched off, and when it first connects after being switched on. So any sort of continuous interference seen will be from something else, or from somebody making a call.
Secondly, any plane that is affected to the degree some fear is going to crash - simply because, short of a strip search of everybody, one cannot guarantee there are no phones accidentally left on. I bet every 747 is packed with phoned that are left on. The systems must be designed with better immunity than that.
The issue with messing up the network is a separate one. It seems to work OK however, perhaps because not many people do it. I normally find mobiles work OK below about 3000ft but I use them for texts only.
Some time ago I used a Nokia 6210 as a GSM modem (9.6k) for internet access, with a PDA, to get weather while airborne. It actually worked once over France at about 8000ft but it was never much good in the UK above about 2000ft. The TCP/IP connection would break after a minute or two in any case. GPRS is a dead loss.
So I would not rely on a mobile for a speech call, in any airborne circumstances.
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I did a bluetooth search from my laptop on a commercial flight the other day and was presented with a list of half a dozen mobile phones. Keeping in mind that lots of people don't have bluetooth turned on even when their phone is and it only works for 30 feet or so there were probably 50 or more phones turned on.
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I'm not too sure about the effect on aircraft instruments, but I recently did my Air Law exam and remember it mentioning in the book about airborne mobiles making other mobile users disconnect from their calls and potentially crash the mobile network in the local area!
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From New Scientist, 10 September 2005:
THE US Federal Communications Commission (FCC) bans cellphones from aircraft because the airborne signals can clog up base stations over a wide area.
The problem occurs because of the way cellphones work. Cellphones on land can normally hear around three or four base stations, and remain registered simultaneously with all of them. This takes up a slot on each base station, and there are only so many slots to go round. On land this is normally not a problem as buildings and terrain usually mean the number of phones within sight of a particular base station is manageable.
However, phones in an aircraft are likely to have line-of-sight contact with scores of base stations, so they will use up slots in many more base stations than the designers of the network intended. Fly a plane full of handsets over the same area and you will soon clog up the base station registers, jamming the network. Hence the FCC's ban.
The problem occurs because of the way cellphones work. Cellphones on land can normally hear around three or four base stations, and remain registered simultaneously with all of them. This takes up a slot on each base station, and there are only so many slots to go round. On land this is normally not a problem as buildings and terrain usually mean the number of phones within sight of a particular base station is manageable.
However, phones in an aircraft are likely to have line-of-sight contact with scores of base stations, so they will use up slots in many more base stations than the designers of the network intended. Fly a plane full of handsets over the same area and you will soon clog up the base station registers, jamming the network. Hence the FCC's ban.
I tried it once but gave up for two reasons:
1. The signal kept cutting in and out rapidly (I was at around 2,500' agl) as I passed over the base stations.
2. The Auster cockpit is so noisy (four open exhaust stubs
) that I couldn't hear anything when did get through!
1. The signal kept cutting in and out rapidly (I was at around 2,500' agl) as I passed over the base stations.
2. The Auster cockpit is so noisy (four open exhaust stubs
) that I couldn't hear anything when did get through!
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When I was learning I phoned up my instructor on his mobile. When he answered I said "there's a lot of noise in the background, where are you?"
He said "base leg" !!!
He said "base leg" !!!
Moving On
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This is the AIC on the matter (AIS Registration required):
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P062.PDF
Although it would appear to be directed at Public Transport operations.
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P062.PDF
Although it would appear to be directed at Public Transport operations.
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Oxeagle, a friend of mine, an instructor at Welshpool a few years ago, got a very snotty letter from Orange I believe, asking him not to use the phone whilst flying as he had crashed the whole network on several occasions. The next time it happened I think they threatened him with a large bill for resetting the network...
Steely Eyed Missile Man, (Stu) are you out there??
Steely Eyed Missile Man, (Stu) are you out there??
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LFS
Yes, somebody wrote that guidance paper up for airlines. It isn't based on anything scientific that I can see. The usual CAA stuff.
JB
I can't believe you joined in Feb 2006 yet that name has been unreserved all that time!!!
Anyway, when did this happen and is this first-hand i.e. did you see that letter? The reality is that there are hills around Welshpool that are as high as a lot of people fly at, and I have not heard of a ban on hill walking while carrying a mobile phone.
Yes, somebody wrote that guidance paper up for airlines. It isn't based on anything scientific that I can see. The usual CAA stuff.
JB
I can't believe you joined in Feb 2006 yet that name has been unreserved all that time!!!
Anyway, when did this happen and is this first-hand i.e. did you see that letter? The reality is that there are hills around Welshpool that are as high as a lot of people fly at, and I have not heard of a ban on hill walking while carrying a mobile phone.
For sure a phone in an aircraft can "see" far more base stations than the system was ever designed to be able to cope with. If it "crashes the network" though then there is something seriously wrong with the network! At worst it would cause interference to some other calls.
The other day I was on Mount Hamilton, just SE of San Jose at 4400' with a fantastic view over the whole south bay and Santa Clara valley. I tried to use my phone. It showed a good signal (no surprise) but every time I tried to make a call, it failed and showed no signal for a few seconds. Similar phenomenon I guess.
Of course 4400' is a lot higher than you normally get to fly small planes in UK airspace...
n5296s
The other day I was on Mount Hamilton, just SE of San Jose at 4400' with a fantastic view over the whole south bay and Santa Clara valley. I tried to use my phone. It showed a good signal (no surprise) but every time I tried to make a call, it failed and showed no signal for a few seconds. Similar phenomenon I guess.
Of course 4400' is a lot higher than you normally get to fly small planes in UK airspace...
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Originally Posted by IO540
The reality is that there are hills around Welshpool that are as high as a lot of people fly at, and I have not heard of a ban on hill walking while carrying a mobile phone.
Also, he made some smart@rsed remark about hills not moving about very much.
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Originally Posted by IO540
Hills not moving about? Cars can and do move faster than most GA spamcans, yet the phones in them are supposed to still function.
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The cars may move about, but the roads on which they are driving do not.
AIUI, at any spot on that road, the number of cells visible in line of sight will be limited and topography considerations of network design takes that into account.
AIUI, at any spot on that road, the number of cells visible in line of sight will be limited and topography considerations of network design takes that into account.
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n5296s
Switch off your battery saving mode, if it is possible on the phone. The handset gets a good signal, so it reduces its own output on the assumption that you are near a base station, but you aren't! I have done this from the Brecon Beacons in South Wales, having hte same problem, and it worked.
IO540
Did you pay attention to your groundschool? 1.25 x square root of height in feet? And what type of aircraft are you flying in? OK, not the 160 kts TAS I usually flight plan, but most travel at 120 mph or so, enough to get a long ban even on the motorway! How many people phone at such speeds in cars?
Switch off your battery saving mode, if it is possible on the phone. The handset gets a good signal, so it reduces its own output on the assumption that you are near a base station, but you aren't! I have done this from the Brecon Beacons in South Wales, having hte same problem, and it worked.
IO540
Did you pay attention to your groundschool? 1.25 x square root of height in feet? And what type of aircraft are you flying in? OK, not the 160 kts TAS I usually flight plan, but most travel at 120 mph or so, enough to get a long ban even on the motorway! How many people phone at such speeds in cars?
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I plan for 160kt+ TAS too, but my point was a general one: people can and do drive at 100mph+ and if every time their hands-free kit (if indeed they have one) accepted an incoming call the whole network got overloaded and crashed, there would be major problems. And network coverage does have to be very good around major roads - that is where the companies concentrate first (for travelling businessmen).
So I think a much bigger meal is made of all this than is necessary.
So I think a much bigger meal is made of all this than is necessary.
