difference in IR and IMC rating
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difference in IR and IMC rating
hey guys,
about to get my PPL if the uk weather permits!
anyway, after the training i would like to get more ratings, although i dont really get the difference with IR and IMC rating.
if i have an IR rating would that mean i could fly in IMC anyway and wont need to do IMC training? or do i need IMC before i can actually start IR training?
about to get my PPL if the uk weather permits!
anyway, after the training i would like to get more ratings, although i dont really get the difference with IR and IMC rating.
if i have an IR rating would that mean i could fly in IMC anyway and wont need to do IMC training? or do i need IMC before i can actually start IR training?
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The IMC rating is a relatively straight forward rating that has a minimum of 15hrs flight training and a ground exam, which you would take in similar cirumstances to any of your PPL exams (if you have taken any).
The IMC rating allows you to fly IFR but there are limitations in what airspace you can fly into under IFR. People will probably come out with that in a post no doubt.
The Instrument Rating at present consists of 7 ground exams that must be taken at the CAA office in Gatwick and a minimum of 55hrs flight training in prep. for the IR. Basically it costs a fortune and takes F**ing ages. I'm almost certain you don't have to have an IMC rating prior to trying to get an IR
BUT there is a loophole...you can get an FAA (North American) Instrument Rating which must be done in the US but it's pretty straight forward just one multi choice ground exam and a flight check ride and your away. You can only fly IFR in the UK/Europe if you are in a FAA reg.'d machine.
hope this helps mate.
The IMC rating allows you to fly IFR but there are limitations in what airspace you can fly into under IFR. People will probably come out with that in a post no doubt.
The Instrument Rating at present consists of 7 ground exams that must be taken at the CAA office in Gatwick and a minimum of 55hrs flight training in prep. for the IR. Basically it costs a fortune and takes F**ing ages. I'm almost certain you don't have to have an IMC rating prior to trying to get an IR
BUT there is a loophole...you can get an FAA (North American) Instrument Rating which must be done in the US but it's pretty straight forward just one multi choice ground exam and a flight check ride and your away. You can only fly IFR in the UK/Europe if you are in a FAA reg.'d machine.
hope this helps mate.
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IMC Rating is UK airspace only. It's easy enough to get though. You also can't go into Class A airspace (which isn't a real issue in the UK, at the level of aircraft type which a PPL is likely to be flying) and you need 1800m visibility for takeoff and landing (which isn't a problem either; it's really only fog that goes below that).
The full JAA (European) Instrument Rating is rather more than 7 exams. The ATPL version is 14 exams; the PPL/IR is (I think) about 10 but some have been combined into a single sitting. The study material is 3-4 feet of paper thickness; I've seen it. It's a truly massive undertaking in terms of a chunk of life dedicated to it and the required feat of memory, which almost nobody does unless they want to fly commercially. There are also additional medical requirements even for just a PPL. Flying is 50hrs min for single and 55hrs min for multi engine IR and that is probably the easiest part! The IMC Rating training does not count towards the flying requirement but there is a committee working on that right now and it appears this (together with a approx 20% ground school reduction) will be one of the changes.
The FAA (American) PPL/IR route is the popular option for private flying with an IR. The FAA IR study material is about 2" thick and can be done in say 6 months if you also have to work and have a life. But to get worldwide privileges you need an FAA registered aircraft, which tends to imply buying one (lots of $$$). Existing ICAO (i.e. done almost anywhere in the world) instrument training counts towards the FAA IR requirements.
Whichever way you look at it, if you want to fly in a way that needs an IR, you will find it hard to rent a plane that's good enough, so your budget needs to be that much bigger. The school may not put it quite like that though
If you have the budget to pull this all off, consider doing an FAA PPL only initially. You can fly a G-reg plane on it, worldwide, VFR. You get an FAA medical (plenty of UK based doctors). Then, you can add the FAA IR to it. The UK CAA or the UK flight training scene are not involved at all; in fact due to recent restrictions you will have to go to the USA for the PPL. UK PPL training will count fully towards the FAA PPL training requirements (aren't the Yanks generous; you can't do this the other way round).
The full JAA (European) Instrument Rating is rather more than 7 exams. The ATPL version is 14 exams; the PPL/IR is (I think) about 10 but some have been combined into a single sitting. The study material is 3-4 feet of paper thickness; I've seen it. It's a truly massive undertaking in terms of a chunk of life dedicated to it and the required feat of memory, which almost nobody does unless they want to fly commercially. There are also additional medical requirements even for just a PPL. Flying is 50hrs min for single and 55hrs min for multi engine IR and that is probably the easiest part! The IMC Rating training does not count towards the flying requirement but there is a committee working on that right now and it appears this (together with a approx 20% ground school reduction) will be one of the changes.
The FAA (American) PPL/IR route is the popular option for private flying with an IR. The FAA IR study material is about 2" thick and can be done in say 6 months if you also have to work and have a life. But to get worldwide privileges you need an FAA registered aircraft, which tends to imply buying one (lots of $$$). Existing ICAO (i.e. done almost anywhere in the world) instrument training counts towards the FAA IR requirements.
Whichever way you look at it, if you want to fly in a way that needs an IR, you will find it hard to rent a plane that's good enough, so your budget needs to be that much bigger. The school may not put it quite like that though
If you have the budget to pull this all off, consider doing an FAA PPL only initially. You can fly a G-reg plane on it, worldwide, VFR. You get an FAA medical (plenty of UK based doctors). Then, you can add the FAA IR to it. The UK CAA or the UK flight training scene are not involved at all; in fact due to recent restrictions you will have to go to the USA for the PPL. UK PPL training will count fully towards the FAA PPL training requirements (aren't the Yanks generous; you can't do this the other way round).
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Originally Posted by IO540
The full JAA (European) Instrument Rating is rather more than 7 exams. The ATPL version is 14 exams; the PPL/IR is (I think) about 10 but some have been combined into a single sitting.
The IR (A) rating has 7 exams....end of! There may be 10 subjects, but there are 7 passes required to have IR (A) theory.
a) Air Law/Operational Procedures
b) Aircraft General Knowledge
c) Flight Performance & Planning
d) Human Performance & Limitations
e) Meteorology
f) Navigation
g) Communications (IFR)
There is no JAR ATPL version of the IR (A) rating that is any different from a JAR PPL (A) version. If pilots are going commercial after having a PPL, they do all the ATPL exams as these include all the IR (A) exams. However when nouseforaname said their are 7 IR (A) exams, he was correct.
HB
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The IR (A) rating has 7 exams....end of! There may be 10 subjects, but there are 7 passes required to have IR (A) theory.
Air Law and Ops Procs are two exams.
Nav is two exams (Gen and Radio)
Aircraft General Knowledge is two exams (Systems and Instruments)
Live and learn. Would explain why you have to do the lot again for the ATPL.
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There are 10 subjects to study but the some of the exams are combined into a single session. these are
Flight Perf & Planning
Air Law & ATC Procedures
Human Perf & limits
The single exam subjects are:
Aircraft Gen knowledge
Navigation
Met
IR Comms
I have one sitting left (hopefully!) in 4 weeks. The subject matter you study is the ATPL material, you are just asked less questions on it at the actual exam. There are also certain sections you can omit (not that places like Atlantic bother to tell you) that are also not in the exams. These are things like Mach meters, AC electrics etc.
Flight Perf & Planning
Air Law & ATC Procedures
Human Perf & limits
The single exam subjects are:
Aircraft Gen knowledge
Navigation
Met
IR Comms
I have one sitting left (hopefully!) in 4 weeks. The subject matter you study is the ATPL material, you are just asked less questions on it at the actual exam. There are also certain sections you can omit (not that places like Atlantic bother to tell you) that are also not in the exams. These are things like Mach meters, AC electrics etc.
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The relevant part of the JAA Site: http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl.html
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Interesting. I wonder if this has been in a state of flux recently. I could swear blindly I have been told by several JAA ATPL and PPL/IR candidates, over the past 1-2 years, that an ATP sits 14 exams and the PPL sits about 10. There was also a period of time, early in JAA, when no separate PPL syllabus existed.
Anyway, the key point remains: the JAA IR is a huge undertaking. The FAA IR is very significantly easier on the ground school, and probably similar on the flying difficulty (some say it's harder; I certainly found it very hard).
Anyway, the key point remains: the JAA IR is a huge undertaking. The FAA IR is very significantly easier on the ground school, and probably similar on the flying difficulty (some say it's harder; I certainly found it very hard).
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As I said above Peter I am coming to the end of a year long journey on mine and nothing has changed during that time. The number of subjects is 10 but the number of exams is only 7. The problem of course with more theory being crammed into fewer exam questions is you have a greater likelyhood of getting it wrong due to the vast amount of useless information you have to learn!
But yes the JAR IR is a huge undertaking compared to the FAA. But at the end of the day if you want to fly European aircraft at this time you have no choice. The driver for me was that I have a superbly equipped G reg aircraft that I did not want to put on the N reg. I also fly an IFR equipped twin and my co operators have no desire to go N reg so the onus is on me to become compliant.
At least the FAA training gives great preperation!
But yes the JAR IR is a huge undertaking compared to the FAA. But at the end of the day if you want to fly European aircraft at this time you have no choice. The driver for me was that I have a superbly equipped G reg aircraft that I did not want to put on the N reg. I also fly an IFR equipped twin and my co operators have no desire to go N reg so the onus is on me to become compliant.
At least the FAA training gives great preperation!
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Personally, I started my IMC about 25-30 solo hours after my PPL and found that the main thing that I got out of it was a great deal more accuracy in my flying and as such even though it is UK only, and I still dont tend to fly in IMC much, I considered it very worthwhile.
For me as someone not intending to go pro, IR never really entered my mind
For me as someone not intending to go pro, IR never really entered my mind
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hey guys, very good advice
i am thinking of going into commercial training. does that mean i have to gain a PPL IR before i can get CPL training?
what is the difficult part of IR in terms of flying?
i am thinking of going into commercial training. does that mean i have to gain a PPL IR before i can get CPL training?
what is the difficult part of IR in terms of flying?
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pilotho,
You can do the IR after the CPL, that means that you get a five hour credit off the IR training req. If you do the IR before the CPL, you get a 10 hours credit towards the CPL. It all gets very complex. The best way to navigate through the veritible myriad of options is to buy this: http://www.ppl-atpl.demon.co.uk/
You can do the IR after the CPL, that means that you get a five hour credit off the IR training req. If you do the IR before the CPL, you get a 10 hours credit towards the CPL. It all gets very complex. The best way to navigate through the veritible myriad of options is to buy this: http://www.ppl-atpl.demon.co.uk/
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The basic PPL restricts you to 'in sight of surface' but an IMC allows you to fly in all VMC conditions which in some situations allows flight out of sight of surface (as long as you are 1000' from cloud).
Interesting point is that 'permit' aircraft are allowed to fly under VMC conditions therefore an IMC is of value even if you fly a 'permit' aircraft.
Interesting point is that 'permit' aircraft are allowed to fly under VMC conditions therefore an IMC is of value even if you fly a 'permit' aircraft.
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FunFly makes a lot of sense. If you are going professional, the IMCR is irrelevent. But for the PPL, apart from the 1800m vis limit on runway, in the UK the IMCR gives all the privileges of an IR in all airspace class D and below.
Even for a permit a/c, an IMCR holder has much greater privileges than those without. eg in the CI zone SVFR, an IMCR has min 3K vis limit compared with 10K for those without. And boy, do you need it! That 'goldfish bowl' in haze over the sea can mean you just have to fly on instruments even when well within VFR vis limits.
But beware, instrument flight NEEDS currency (in US terms). Its no good going 2 years between IMC renewals without regular instrument flight, and expect to be able to cope!
Mike
Even for a permit a/c, an IMCR holder has much greater privileges than those without. eg in the CI zone SVFR, an IMCR has min 3K vis limit compared with 10K for those without. And boy, do you need it! That 'goldfish bowl' in haze over the sea can mean you just have to fly on instruments even when well within VFR vis limits.
But beware, instrument flight NEEDS currency (in US terms). Its no good going 2 years between IMC renewals without regular instrument flight, and expect to be able to cope!
Mike
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"If you are going professional, the IMCR is irrelevent"
Not 100% true. You could be going for the bizjet pilot market - legitimate as it is probably a more interesting job than driving airbuses. You do your own flight planning, get a huge variety of destinations, meet some interesting (and wealthy) people.
Many or most bizjets are N-reg, and IMCR training counts towards the FAA instrument time. You would be doing an FAA ATPL.
Not 100% true. You could be going for the bizjet pilot market - legitimate as it is probably a more interesting job than driving airbuses. You do your own flight planning, get a huge variety of destinations, meet some interesting (and wealthy) people.
Many or most bizjets are N-reg, and IMCR training counts towards the FAA instrument time. You would be doing an FAA ATPL.
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all the privileges of the IR in class D
Tim