View Poll Results: Pictures of aircraft water-skiing
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Pictures of aircraft water-skiing? Genuine or not?
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Are wing tip vortices totally absent in ground effect? The water below where the wings used to be is pretty untouched, might you expect a little ripple?
Here is a picture of a ground effect vehicle, there is some disturbance of the water under the wing, not seen in the harvard photos
Here is a picture of a ground effect vehicle, there is some disturbance of the water under the wing, not seen in the harvard photos
Last edited by slim_slag; 27th Feb 2006 at 14:24.
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So anyway, there was this bloke Fred Nicole...
Bucker Jungmeister, Bay of Cannes 1951.
Pic from Annette Carson's outstanding history of aerobatics, Flight Fantastic - in which she reports that he repeated the feat "many times, with perfect accuracy".
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The "Flying Lions"
These photographs are very much the real thing, done with the approval of the South African Civil Aviation Authority. Photographer was Frans Dely, a fairly well known aviation photographer in South Africa, please visit http://www.aviationdimension.com for further information on this photographic shoot. The basics, it has been filmed for a local TV sports channel.
The pilots of this team are all highly experienced, the majority who fly for South African Airways.
The pilots of this team are all highly experienced, the majority who fly for South African Airways.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I think they are real.
I also don't think they're quite as difficult to achieve as some people here are saying they are.
Flying an aircraft on solid ground in this attitude is a skill which every tail-dragger pilot should be able to do without thinking about it, because it's exactly what you do every time you take off, and every time you do a wheel-landing. It is something which my instructors made me do for hour after hour (or so it seemed) before they'd try teaching me wheel landings.
The only question, then, is how is it done on water. And, as the Top Gear program clearly showed, a wheel moving at a fast enough speed over water behaves pretty much as if it's on solid ground.
So surely all (and I use the word "all" with a little trepidation here....) that's required is to do a wheel-landing on water, then apply enough power to maintain a fast taxy speed with the tail in the air???
FFF
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I also don't think they're quite as difficult to achieve as some people here are saying they are.
Flying an aircraft on solid ground in this attitude is a skill which every tail-dragger pilot should be able to do without thinking about it, because it's exactly what you do every time you take off, and every time you do a wheel-landing. It is something which my instructors made me do for hour after hour (or so it seemed) before they'd try teaching me wheel landings.
The only question, then, is how is it done on water. And, as the Top Gear program clearly showed, a wheel moving at a fast enough speed over water behaves pretty much as if it's on solid ground.
So surely all (and I use the word "all" with a little trepidation here....) that's required is to do a wheel-landing on water, then apply enough power to maintain a fast taxy speed with the tail in the air???
FFF
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Genuine I reckon.
The shadows, reflections, smoke and plumes all point to it being real. Everythings in the right place, with the right lighting.
It could be faked, but it would take a lot of time and money to do. At least as much as doing it for real. You'd have to fly the ac as close as possible to the water and film them. Then rig up some way of producing the appropriate wakes and plumes and smoke, at the same speed as the ac, and film that from the same relative position as the ac. Then composite it all together seamlessly, moving the ac down to where the plumes/wakes are, and remove all the rigging, plus rigging shadow and reflections. Nightmare job. Weeks of work in a top notch facility. Mega bucks.
I'm a Photoshop veteren, and I do video and 3D animation and compositing.
Theres no point looking at jpeg compressed images for signs of fakery, jpeg compression produces its own edge and 'halo' effects and would cover up any original 'fake' effects.
I also reckon, though I've never tried, that the water would push back at that speed and provide quite some resistance.
If it did dig in, the end would be pretty quick though.
SimonHK
The shadows, reflections, smoke and plumes all point to it being real. Everythings in the right place, with the right lighting.
It could be faked, but it would take a lot of time and money to do. At least as much as doing it for real. You'd have to fly the ac as close as possible to the water and film them. Then rig up some way of producing the appropriate wakes and plumes and smoke, at the same speed as the ac, and film that from the same relative position as the ac. Then composite it all together seamlessly, moving the ac down to where the plumes/wakes are, and remove all the rigging, plus rigging shadow and reflections. Nightmare job. Weeks of work in a top notch facility. Mega bucks.
I'm a Photoshop veteren, and I do video and 3D animation and compositing.
Theres no point looking at jpeg compressed images for signs of fakery, jpeg compression produces its own edge and 'halo' effects and would cover up any original 'fake' effects.
I also reckon, though I've never tried, that the water would push back at that speed and provide quite some resistance.
If it did dig in, the end would be pretty quick though.
SimonHK
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Had been sent a photo and thort it was fake, And looked at these and voted "fake", but I now concede it is true, but I still can't quite believe it.
Not going to give it a go...
Not going to give it a go...
I vote genuine.
Aside from all the reasons so far posted, just think of the effect of aquaplaning on a car on a waterlogged road - depending on tyre condition, groove depth etc, aquaplaning can occur at 60mph. In other words, a wedge of water under each wheel is supporting a vehicle weight of circa 1500kg. Also, think of F1 cars on their slicks and how, at relatively low speeds they cannot generate enough downforce to break through the water and hence they skate off the track in all directions.
Aside from all the reasons so far posted, just think of the effect of aquaplaning on a car on a waterlogged road - depending on tyre condition, groove depth etc, aquaplaning can occur at 60mph. In other words, a wedge of water under each wheel is supporting a vehicle weight of circa 1500kg. Also, think of F1 cars on their slicks and how, at relatively low speeds they cannot generate enough downforce to break through the water and hence they skate off the track in all directions.
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the only debate seems to be whether it's clever!
Thank God there's still some daredevil spirit of adventure left with all the ninnies who think folk need to be 'protected' from themselves.
If that attitude existed years ago aviation would never have gotten where it has.
Hats off to them. Awesome flying.
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Wouldn't the wheels be spinning? There's no sign of spray being thrown off by the rotation. You can see it in the cub photos. Perhaps the Havard checklist has "water landing, brakes on"!
Does anyone know if the top gear film is bona fide, or taken in a very shallow piece of water?
Yours, skeptically
Does anyone know if the top gear film is bona fide, or taken in a very shallow piece of water?
Yours, skeptically
Gnome de PPRuNe
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I believe (courtesy of another forum) that it is usually performed "brakes on" - presumably stationery wheels give a better planing platform than rotating - any scientists out there offer a theory as to why?
I guess it's a bit like bare-foot water skiing - keep the power on and maintain equilibrium and you'll be OK!
I guess it's a bit like bare-foot water skiing - keep the power on and maintain equilibrium and you'll be OK!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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TKF - you supply the aircraft, and I'll give it a go!!!
Ok, seriously - if I'm correct about how this is performed (and it is a big "if"), then I certainly used to possess the necessary skills a couple of years ago, although they are a bit out of practice now because I haven't flown tail-draggers for so long.
I certainly wouldn't try it until someone tells me for certain how it's done - but if I'm right, I would guess that, with a suitably experienced instructor sat next to me and a pre-flight brief explaining what's required and the necessary power settings, etc, I would be able to do this at the first attempt, as would any current tail-dragger pilot.
But if my theory as to how it's done is wrong, then it could end up very messy!
FFF
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Ok, seriously - if I'm correct about how this is performed (and it is a big "if"), then I certainly used to possess the necessary skills a couple of years ago, although they are a bit out of practice now because I haven't flown tail-draggers for so long.
I certainly wouldn't try it until someone tells me for certain how it's done - but if I'm right, I would guess that, with a suitably experienced instructor sat next to me and a pre-flight brief explaining what's required and the necessary power settings, etc, I would be able to do this at the first attempt, as would any current tail-dragger pilot.
But if my theory as to how it's done is wrong, then it could end up very messy!
FFF
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Grandpa Aerotart
What I posted on another thread in answer to a question from Taildragger....who shares a little unplanned gliding time with me many moons ago.
While the statute of limitations has certainly long run out I really don't want to encourage youngsters...suffice it to say my limited experience in the subject was FAR from prying eyes and done in my own C185, flying by myself and done out of youthfull high spirits...not showing off...having seen someone else do it in another C185 some time before. Plus I was a full time bush pilot in those days and very 'comfortable' in the aircraft. The passage of time has made me more aware of the pitfalls of being 'young, dumb and full of come'.
Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the thread subject piccies as much, if not more than, most people...but I feel a little lucky to have got away with it so many years ago.
What is interesting is so many magazine articles and websites have piccies/ film of people doing it in the USA and you never here of the FAA taking peoples licences off them...using the river to extend takeoff and landing distances available...all good stuff but if you talk to pilots who do that they will be the first to highlight the pitfalls...and more than one has lost, or knows someone who has lost, an aircraft doing it. They are uninsurable while doing it and carry the entire financial risk themselves.
Having said all that it seems to me that it is no more silly than any other 'extreme sport'. As long as it's your aeroplane and you take full responsibility for it while endangering no-one else it's probably quite an acceptable passtime....who knows...if I ever have the spare money to own, and be prepared to wreck, a 150HP cub and some big tyres I might just take it up as a sport
No there is no doubt the waterskiing Harvards are real...many witnesses and the pilots too well known for it to be faked. My only point is they must have practiced quite extensively, both solo and together, before submitting to the photo flight....information on a SA website suggests the actual pass down the lake that is the subject of the photos was one of 5 that day....lots of people there watching...all very well planned....apparently.
On a thread on Private Flying forum there is a picture of two Jodels waterskiing in formation and another of two cubs waterskiing in formation...this particular 'art form' is a lot more widely practiced than I thought.
While not essentially difficult to achieve it is a passtime fraught with potential embarassment.
It is all based around the basic aquaplaning formula...9X square root of the tyre pressure. Clearly there is also some benefit from really big low pressure tyres like the Tundra tyres you see on some back woods cubs etc...the lower the tyre pressure the lower the aquaplaning speed and thus the larger the margin between the 'high speed taxi' and digging in and flipping over. 9 or 10 PSI in Tundra tyres gives an aquaplaning speed of about 25kts....faster than that and you're happily waterskiing.
If you don't have the brakes on you risk wheel spin up which probably wont, you hope, effect the aquaplaning formula (if you are travelling really fast) but will spray a lot of water all over the place.
If you hit something solid in the water you risk being tripped and flip over...remember when we hit that cable on our forced landing in Moresby. It hit about half way up the tyre and we nearly went over, but we ripped it out of the ground a split second later....even so our nose down attitude would have guaranteed the prop/nose impacted the water had we been waterskiing instead of 50+' above the road.
If you are not very carefull rotating to leave the water you may dip the tailwheel in the water or at least put the rear of the aircraft (horizontal stab) in the plume possibly slowing down enough that you almost stop aquaplaning and drag rises...quickly flipping you over.
The actual act of putting the aircraft on the water is the easy part...once you get over the pucker factor. The list of things that can go wrong after that gets a little scary....more so in a light/relatively underpowered aircraft like a cub than heavier/faster/more powerfull aircraft like a C185/Harvard....I would think.
On a thread on Private Flying forum there is a picture of two Jodels waterskiing in formation and another of two cubs waterskiing in formation...this particular 'art form' is a lot more widely practiced than I thought.
While not essentially difficult to achieve it is a passtime fraught with potential embarassment.
It is all based around the basic aquaplaning formula...9X square root of the tyre pressure. Clearly there is also some benefit from really big low pressure tyres like the Tundra tyres you see on some back woods cubs etc...the lower the tyre pressure the lower the aquaplaning speed and thus the larger the margin between the 'high speed taxi' and digging in and flipping over. 9 or 10 PSI in Tundra tyres gives an aquaplaning speed of about 25kts....faster than that and you're happily waterskiing.
If you don't have the brakes on you risk wheel spin up which probably wont, you hope, effect the aquaplaning formula (if you are travelling really fast) but will spray a lot of water all over the place.
If you hit something solid in the water you risk being tripped and flip over...remember when we hit that cable on our forced landing in Moresby. It hit about half way up the tyre and we nearly went over, but we ripped it out of the ground a split second later....even so our nose down attitude would have guaranteed the prop/nose impacted the water had we been waterskiing instead of 50+' above the road.
If you are not very carefull rotating to leave the water you may dip the tailwheel in the water or at least put the rear of the aircraft (horizontal stab) in the plume possibly slowing down enough that you almost stop aquaplaning and drag rises...quickly flipping you over.
The actual act of putting the aircraft on the water is the easy part...once you get over the pucker factor. The list of things that can go wrong after that gets a little scary....more so in a light/relatively underpowered aircraft like a cub than heavier/faster/more powerfull aircraft like a C185/Harvard....I would think.
Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the thread subject piccies as much, if not more than, most people...but I feel a little lucky to have got away with it so many years ago.
What is interesting is so many magazine articles and websites have piccies/ film of people doing it in the USA and you never here of the FAA taking peoples licences off them...using the river to extend takeoff and landing distances available...all good stuff but if you talk to pilots who do that they will be the first to highlight the pitfalls...and more than one has lost, or knows someone who has lost, an aircraft doing it. They are uninsurable while doing it and carry the entire financial risk themselves.
Having said all that it seems to me that it is no more silly than any other 'extreme sport'. As long as it's your aeroplane and you take full responsibility for it while endangering no-one else it's probably quite an acceptable passtime....who knows...if I ever have the spare money to own, and be prepared to wreck, a 150HP cub and some big tyres I might just take it up as a sport
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 28th Feb 2006 at 15:20.
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As Chimbu Chuckles says, this kind of thing is standard practice in some places if you have a lot of stick time and cojones of titanium:
http://bigrockslongprops.com/media/preview.wmv
And here's a whole discussion on the issue by those in the know, including some rather irascible contributions by someone who I think is our own Chuck Ellsworth, the Catalina pilot who used to contribute here:
http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewt...ghlight=videos
QDM
http://bigrockslongprops.com/media/preview.wmv
And here's a whole discussion on the issue by those in the know, including some rather irascible contributions by someone who I think is our own Chuck Ellsworth, the Catalina pilot who used to contribute here:
http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewt...ghlight=videos
QDM
Last edited by QDMQDMQDM; 28th Feb 2006 at 21:16.
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Chimbu chuckles, FlyForFun, and Bronx,
I like the way you guys think!!
The more I think about this the more I want to try my hand at it. If your up for going for a ride send me a PM
The problem is the heel brakes on my plane. Did you use the brakes when you did it or would you? If it is NOT 100% necessary to hold them on I may try it.
I am relatively young (25). Own my own tail wheel plane, have a couple thousand hours in light singles and have driven a snowmobile successfully on water just for the fun of it. This is my idea of a great personal challenge.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing!" -Helen Keller Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit
I like the way you guys think!!
The more I think about this the more I want to try my hand at it. If your up for going for a ride send me a PM
The problem is the heel brakes on my plane. Did you use the brakes when you did it or would you? If it is NOT 100% necessary to hold them on I may try it.
I am relatively young (25). Own my own tail wheel plane, have a couple thousand hours in light singles and have driven a snowmobile successfully on water just for the fun of it. This is my idea of a great personal challenge.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing!" -Helen Keller Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit