Aero's in non aero a/c.
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Aero's in non aero a/c.
Purely a hypothetical thread.
I understand the g limits placed on both aerobatic and non aerobatic a/c by the manufacturers.
What happens if you attempt an aero maneouver in a non - aero certified a/c, that falls within the a/c g limits? Thinking of both twin and single piston.
I understand the g limits placed on both aerobatic and non aerobatic a/c by the manufacturers.
What happens if you attempt an aero maneouver in a non - aero certified a/c, that falls within the a/c g limits? Thinking of both twin and single piston.
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I think there is more to it than that...for example CofG. You may be within the G limits but unable to recover from the maneouver due to CofG position. However, you could probably pull off barrel rolls and stuff like that in your bog standard Arrow, but I wouldn't like to try it.......
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Didn't one of the test pilots roll an Airbus at a demonstration event a few years ago, and promptly get a large b0l1o$king from his boss??? I'm terrible at remembering things like this.....
To answer the question with some uneducated thoughts, though, starting with disclaimer: Don't do it!!!
Now we've got that out of the way, I would have thought than many low positive g manoevres could probably be done quite safely if everything goes correctly, but if things go pear-shaped I would put money on your chances of getting out of it in one piece. Also, bear in mind that the manual of aerobatic aircraft would generally include entry speeds for manoevres, but your non-aero aircraft won't have these, so you will be playing the roll of test-pilot not only in doing the manoevre itself, but also in finding out the "correct" (can't think of a better word) entry speeds - so the chances of things going wrong would probably be quite large.
As I said, though, those are uneducated thoughts that might well be wrong....
FFF
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To answer the question with some uneducated thoughts, though, starting with disclaimer: Don't do it!!!
Now we've got that out of the way, I would have thought than many low positive g manoevres could probably be done quite safely if everything goes correctly, but if things go pear-shaped I would put money on your chances of getting out of it in one piece. Also, bear in mind that the manual of aerobatic aircraft would generally include entry speeds for manoevres, but your non-aero aircraft won't have these, so you will be playing the roll of test-pilot not only in doing the manoevre itself, but also in finding out the "correct" (can't think of a better word) entry speeds - so the chances of things going wrong would probably be quite large.
As I said, though, those are uneducated thoughts that might well be wrong....
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Originally Posted by FlyingForFun
Didn't one of the test pilots roll an Airbus at a demonstration event a few years ago, and promptly get a large b0l1o$king from his boss??? I'm terrible at remembering things like this.....
FFF
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FFF
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You cant roll a fly by wire Airbus the flight control system won't let you do it.
As far as the origional ? goes, when I first started arrived at the flying flying club for my flying scholarship the instructors were all at the funeral of a member who had been doing aeros in a C150 (not an Aerobat) and had pulled the wings off - I think that answers the question fairly dramatically! As said by others, you will probably get away with it until a manouver goes wrong
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And don't forget the PA31 over East Anglia that came apart after the pilot looped it.
Idiots try this from time to time thinking they are good. Some real idiots do it in club aircraft for which they ought to be hung. If they get into trouble they may be lucky and live not to tell the tale (I bet they aren't going to tell anyone that they've exceeded Vne or the G limit). They'll not have the faintest idea exactly what effect their playing will have had on the aircraft or the potential danger it may present to any future user of the aircraft.
Dangerous thoughts and a dangerous thread. If you seriously want an answer to this question ask someone who is qualified to give you the information.
Idiots try this from time to time thinking they are good. Some real idiots do it in club aircraft for which they ought to be hung. If they get into trouble they may be lucky and live not to tell the tale (I bet they aren't going to tell anyone that they've exceeded Vne or the G limit). They'll not have the faintest idea exactly what effect their playing will have had on the aircraft or the potential danger it may present to any future user of the aircraft.
Dangerous thoughts and a dangerous thread. If you seriously want an answer to this question ask someone who is qualified to give you the information.
It was Tex Johnson, Boeing's Chief Pilot at the time who rolled the 707 over Seattle. Mr. Boeing told him that he was demonstrating an airliner not a fighter and please don't do it again as we only have one 707!
I've seen a video of a clown barrel rolling a PA-28 AT NIGHT!!!
I've seen a video of a clown barrel rolling a PA-28 AT NIGHT!!!
Originally Posted by foxmoth
a C150 (not an Aerobat) and had pulled the wings off - I think that answers the question fairly dramatically!
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Don't worry, I don't have any plans to do it, I have my AOPA certificate and access to an aerobatic aircraft. It was purely hypothetical. Thanks for the answers.
PS Anyone got a link to that 707 rolling? That sounds pretty impressive!
PS Anyone got a link to that 707 rolling? That sounds pretty impressive!
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I was going to mention the 707 but got beaten to it, however there is a story that a prototype concorde was rolled by the french test pilot who the said to Brian Trubshaw sat next to him "now I have wound it up you must unwind it" so allegedly he did ! I also know of a enstrom/schweizer helicopter display pilot that would loop a hughes 500 saying that if the manouver maintains 1G then the helicopter wouldn't even know it was upside down. Fair comment if done correctly (and it allways was)
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Awesome bit of footage! I don't know of anyone who has tried aero's in non-aerobatic certified a/c, though I do know pilots who have performed aero's in aerobatic a/c without any experience or training. I expect they'll meet their maker some time soon. 
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Can you point me to a report or date when it happened? Be useful to show one or two people.
Last edited by foxmoth; 27th Feb 2006 at 08:27.
I've been in a Cherokee doing an aileron roll, never felt stupid/brave enough to do it myself.
Standard G limits provide a pretty healthy buffer, thus you don't hear about inflight breakups that often. Much easier to exceed those limits doing silly stuff in a non-aero aircraft. Most are strong enough to handle it, for a while. Everyone thinks about wings folding, but other vulnerable areas can include engine mounts, any control hinges, and wing flex creating momentary abnormal "spot" loadings on a wing at high g/airspeed if coarse aileron isapplied. And this can occur at Va, if hamfisted enough.
Pull 3g going into a loop in a 140 (or whatever) hit a 2g patch of turbulence/windshear, presto. Way over the limits.(next month someone hires the aircraft, something goes ping!.....)
I've heard of aerobatic aircraft coming back with missing rivets!
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...-off-wings.wmv Partevia (graphic). The 707 roll is at this site, too.
Standard G limits provide a pretty healthy buffer, thus you don't hear about inflight breakups that often. Much easier to exceed those limits doing silly stuff in a non-aero aircraft. Most are strong enough to handle it, for a while. Everyone thinks about wings folding, but other vulnerable areas can include engine mounts, any control hinges, and wing flex creating momentary abnormal "spot" loadings on a wing at high g/airspeed if coarse aileron isapplied. And this can occur at Va, if hamfisted enough.
Pull 3g going into a loop in a 140 (or whatever) hit a 2g patch of turbulence/windshear, presto. Way over the limits.(next month someone hires the aircraft, something goes ping!.....)
I've heard of aerobatic aircraft coming back with missing rivets!
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...-off-wings.wmv Partevia (graphic). The 707 roll is at this site, too.
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though I do know pilots who have performed aero's in aerobatic a/c without any experience or training. I expect they'll meet their maker some time soon.
The point is that now there really is no need to self teach as there are plenty of places to learn.
As for non aerobatic aircraft, just don't go there! G limits are one thing but also VNE can easily be exceeded causing flutter umungst other things.
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If you go over to Flyer web board there's a discussion going on including a link showing the incredible Bob Hoover doing stopped engine Aeros in a twin.
I have a 1970's video of the same bloke doing fantastic aeros in a stock Commander 114.
Just goes to show what you can do if you know what your doing. I'm pleased to say that I dont so I wont!
I have a 1970's video of the same bloke doing fantastic aeros in a stock Commander 114.
Just goes to show what you can do if you know what your doing. I'm pleased to say that I dont so I wont!
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Looks like we are looking for candidates for the Darwin awards.
Put simply, Bob Hoover was a test pilot for many years and knew exactly what the structure of his Shrike was and what it would take.
Reading some of these posts makes me worry that people aren't using the POH, or if they are, are ignoring it.
Yes aircraft are safe to a level+'comfort zone', but don't assume you can go into that zone without consequences, unless, like Bob Hoover, you are a trained aircraft engineer and test pilot.
Still, I will happily read about these experiments of aeros in a Luton Minor on the Darwin Award website.
http://www.darwinawards.com
Put simply, Bob Hoover was a test pilot for many years and knew exactly what the structure of his Shrike was and what it would take.
Reading some of these posts makes me worry that people aren't using the POH, or if they are, are ignoring it.
Yes aircraft are safe to a level+'comfort zone', but don't assume you can go into that zone without consequences, unless, like Bob Hoover, you are a trained aircraft engineer and test pilot.
Still, I will happily read about these experiments of aeros in a Luton Minor on the Darwin Award website.
http://www.darwinawards.com