Do you always turn at 500ft (onto the crosswind) in the circuit??
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Do you always turn at 500ft (onto the crosswind) in the circuit??
Do you always turn at 500ft (onto the crosswind) in the circuit?? I was thinking about this and for instance imagine you have a very strong headwind, your most likely to be still over the runway, if its a long one. Whats your thoughts about this???
I adjust the upwind turn depending upon the weather conditions and other traffic.
I never extend downwind beyond the 'flapless circuit' position - unless ATC order otherwise.
If someone is flying bomber circuits outside the normal circuit pattern, he/she must expect that other circuit traffic may not give way. Not so much 'cutting inside' as following the correct circuit pattern....
I never extend downwind beyond the 'flapless circuit' position - unless ATC order otherwise.
If someone is flying bomber circuits outside the normal circuit pattern, he/she must expect that other circuit traffic may not give way. Not so much 'cutting inside' as following the correct circuit pattern....
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Being taught "by rote" is never a good thing. Turning at 500ft taking no account of wind or circuit traffic is a poor example of teaching. As you say - if it's a strong headwind then wait. Turning early is going to give you no time downwind at all (think about it - if the headwind's that strong think of the effect going the other way).
So - yes - if you're at 500ft and you haven't reached the upwind end of the runway then leave it until you have gone past it.
So - yes - if you're at 500ft and you haven't reached the upwind end of the runway then leave it until you have gone past it.
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The rule at Cambridge is to turn at 500' or the airfield boundary whichever is later. So "if (I'm) at 500ft and (I) haven't reached the upwind end of the runway" then I keep going until I have. (I've never yet reached circuit height whilst still over the runway.)
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500' is favoured by some airfields as. due to differing aircraft performance and wind condions, it is fairer on those underneath than always turning at ther same geographic position.
Touch and goes are banned at our 1800' 1% uphill strip; so, went off to a 5000' runway.
You want to be past the end of the runway before turning crosswind so that you are not climbing into the fellow crossing the runway at circuit height to join mid-downwind
You want to be past the end of the runway before turning crosswind so that you are not climbing into the fellow crossing the runway at circuit height to join mid-downwind
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It is worth considering why this is commonly "taught".
The aim of any circuit is for the aircraft to form an orderly procession in both pattern and height. This increases the chances of everyone being able to work out who is in the circuit. It also reduces the chances of other aircraft "appearing" above or below you.
Of course as with any "rule of thumb" and as others have said it does need to be modified to take into account aircraft performance and weather conditions. However the fundamental objective does not change. The safest position in any circuit is forming an orderly procession!
The aim of any circuit is for the aircraft to form an orderly procession in both pattern and height. This increases the chances of everyone being able to work out who is in the circuit. It also reduces the chances of other aircraft "appearing" above or below you.
Of course as with any "rule of thumb" and as others have said it does need to be modified to take into account aircraft performance and weather conditions. However the fundamental objective does not change. The safest position in any circuit is forming an orderly procession!
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BEagle - are you talking about airfields without ATC? Where I fly if the guy in front has been told he's No.1 but is flying wide circuits, ATC won't be too pleased if I decide to make myself No.1.
I could of course compalin to ATC about him, and I have, in which case they may or may not change things - sometimes they just tell me I'm No. 2 and to maintain my own separation.
As for turning crosswind, I was taught not to do it below 500ft, but if you turn too early it can get a bit confussing with planes joining crosswind who will be going over the threshold at circuit height - you'll end up climbing into them.
I could of course compalin to ATC about him, and I have, in which case they may or may not change things - sometimes they just tell me I'm No. 2 and to maintain my own separation.
As for turning crosswind, I was taught not to do it below 500ft, but if you turn too early it can get a bit confussing with planes joining crosswind who will be going over the threshold at circuit height - you'll end up climbing into them.
If you turn at 500ft you will be betwen 350 and 400 ft when you roll wings level, if you are typically one mile from the runway that will give you a shallow approach for a light aircraft. I would prefer to be lined up at 500ft one mile from touchdown!
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Whopity, unless I am mistaken, this thread is about the turn from upwind to crosswind, but your reply seems to be talking about the turn from base to final???
FFF
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FFF
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There are extra hazards associated with turning when close to the ground, so traditionally 500 ft is the lowest height to commence a climbing turn after take off for ab initio students.
Notwithstanding any local noise abatement procedures (don't we love them!) it may be sensible to extend upwind (by delaying the turn after take off) to provise separation from traffic ahead whic is also in the circuit. Not much point in turning at 500 ft and following them all the way round the circuit only to have to go around because you are too close on final!
The issue of bomber type circuits which Beagle touched on is a perennial problem where I fly with certain pilots and organisations. The practice of extending downwind for separation should be avoided, the remedy being to go around from the normal base leg (maintaining circuit height) - this means that the a/c behind can, hopefully, fly a normal circuit. Sadly this is rarely taught or practised and one often sees two or three a/c on base leg or even final and no a/c in the upwind part of the circuit.
Notwithstanding any local noise abatement procedures (don't we love them!) it may be sensible to extend upwind (by delaying the turn after take off) to provise separation from traffic ahead whic is also in the circuit. Not much point in turning at 500 ft and following them all the way round the circuit only to have to go around because you are too close on final!
The issue of bomber type circuits which Beagle touched on is a perennial problem where I fly with certain pilots and organisations. The practice of extending downwind for separation should be avoided, the remedy being to go around from the normal base leg (maintaining circuit height) - this means that the a/c behind can, hopefully, fly a normal circuit. Sadly this is rarely taught or practised and one often sees two or three a/c on base leg or even final and no a/c in the upwind part of the circuit.
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The 500' is an ideal situation, however as many people have written, so much else has to be taken into account and I guess that comes from experience. Where I do most of my flying (EGGW), it is not unusual to be asked to make an early turn, for IFR traffic, especially if take off run has started from the C intersection while other traffic is using the turning circles at the end of the runway. Equally, it is not that uncommon to turn onto final at say 300' when the boke in the tower is slotting you in beween landing IFR traffic.
Incidently, I remember that Fowlmere used to have a second runway which broadly run N/S. The approach used to be over the bird sactuary and meant turning onto final at what seemed to be a very low height (200'??) As a low hours PPL, that one really used to freak me out
Incidently, I remember that Fowlmere used to have a second runway which broadly run N/S. The approach used to be over the bird sactuary and meant turning onto final at what seemed to be a very low height (200'??) As a low hours PPL, that one really used to freak me out
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"Incidently, I remember that Fowlmere used to have a second runway which broadly run N/S. The approach used to be over the bird sactuary and meant turning onto final at what seemed to be a very low height (200'??) As a low hours PPL, that one really used to freak me out"
Wow, that was a while ago!
Wow, that was a while ago!
