Microlight Hire - Allowed or not allowed?

[kevwal]

Hi

At a visit to my local microlight flying school they said that after I pass I would not be able to hire the clubs aircraft as regulations do not allow the hire of Microlights.

However reading this web site:

http://www.pilotweb.co.uk/content/ar...e.aspx?id=3345

it says:

"A recent change to the rules means microlight clubs are now allowed to rent their aircraft to members for solo flight."

Can someone point me at the regulations that have changed and if they have indeed changed please?

Thanks
Kevin

[Genghis the Engineer]

Certainly, although not that recent at April 2003.

That said, syndicates are more common, since partial-ownership of the aeroplane often works out cheaper if you're going to do a lot of flying, plus allows you to carry passengers.

G

[kevwal]

Thanks G,

There are obviously a lot of regulations in that document that could stop a particular aircraft being hired out, but generally are all those regulations also in place for an aircraft used for training flights?

IE if an aircraft is used for training is it also likely to be allowed to be hired (in regulation terms)?

Thanks
Kev

[Genghis the Engineer]

Different regulations - if it's used for training there's a specific exemption from the ANO that kicks in.

Once pilots have a licence they can hire a type approved microlight (that's the same ones that can used for training) and fly solo, so long as the school has done the stuff described in that document to make it legal. This doesn't cost the school or club anything, but they do have to do it. But yes, it's those aeroplanes that are most likely to be hireable.


What also happens quite commonly is that schools will sell, say 9 out of 20 shares in an aeroplane to it's club members, hang onto the other 11, use it for training most of the time, but the joint owners can then book and use it as if it were their own - financial arrangements vary between clubs but in my experience about £2k for a share in a reasonably modern aeroplane and £30/hr is in the right order. (But, it's worth checking the small print with such deals, since it'll vary a lot, and if it remains in the school's control, some are more customer-oriented than others.)

G

[kevwal]

Thanks again G,

Reason for the questions, I visited my local Microlight club last week (Sywell, Northamptonshire) and booked a trial lesson in the Cosmik Aviation Eurostar. I was surprised in conversation to be told that after I had done my NPPL Microlight I could not hire one of the schools aircraft due to CAA regulation.

The flying lesson is with Ben Ashman, one of the directors, so now I have more info I can ask again on the lesson - as I'm not sure I want to buy an aircraft share, or be forced to go onto the NPPL SEP conversation just so that I can hire a (more expensive!) aircraft when the Eurostar would do me fine!

Thanks
Kev

P.S. I note you posted in the 'spare seat' thread that you sometimes had spare seats from Cambridge, I would love to join you sometime if I may, happy to help, buy bacon butties and contribute etc, [email protected], 07867 825 847

[Genghis the Engineer]

I know the school at Flylight - they're widely regarded as one of the best in the country, and Ben is a nice straight bloke (as is his business partner Paul Dewhurst). If they won't hire, that's their call - they may not wish to for their own reasons.

But, I'd say get your microlight licence there, then make your mind up - they may have started hiring by then, or you might be able to hire elsewhere, buy a cheap share, or possibly fly something else perhaps slower and less sexy-looking, but just as fun such as an AX or Thruster. There's a lot of options, but you do need a licence first to enjoy them!

G

P.S. Not Cambridge, I keep my microlight at another airfield beginning with C in Hampshire I'm afraid.

[kevwal]

Hi

Sorry messed up on the Cambridge thing, it was someone entirley different!

Totally agree they dont 'have' to hire, sorry probably came across a bit wrong, but actually I have just had an email from them in relation to a different question which I'm sure they wont mind me posting here:

> I have asked around and sadly none of our instructors are JAR qualified.
> The good news is that I fed you some wrong information; you can hire
> microlights but only fly them solo!

So I can hire them, but I can't take the 30 hours credit onto a JAR PPL if I wanted to one day....

Thanks
Kev

[Genghis the Engineer]

So far as I know, it's not required that your instructor has to be JAR qualified in order to upgrade to NPPL(SEP), only that the instructor who takes you for the upgrade has to be JAR qualified.

G

[kevwal]

Yup, thats correct, its the NPPL SEP to JAR PPL thats the problem, if I wanted to get that far, I can only carry 10 hours over not 30....

Cheers
Kev

[Genghis the Engineer]

This is true, and daft - but frankly I'd not worry at the moment, learn to fly and have some fun. The rules will probably have changed several times again by the time you worry about your JAR licence - if you do, given that the Eurostar is faster and more comfortable than the average club Cessna anyhow.

G

[Whopity]

You cannot hire a Microlight aeroplane because it is not certified to an International Standard. It operates on a permit to fly. Hire requires a Cof A and maintenance to public transport standards. That has always presented a problem in microlight training. The ANO was amended in 2003 to allow students within a club to hire club aircraft for training ANO Art 11 (4). This should be read in conjunction with the terms and limitations contained in the Permit to Fly. It does not allow you to hire a microlight outside the training environment.

[kevwal]

Hi Whopity

Thanks for the comments, but that seems to go against what Genghis has said and what is documented in the two url's above?

Cheers
Kev

[Stampe]

Interestingly for many years now the Tiger Club have rented out Pemit To Fly single seat Turbulents to their members under an exemption clause in the ANO put there specifically I am told to enable them to do so.The clause is part c) of below:-

Public transport and aerial work
130 - (1)



(a) Subject to the provisions of this article, aerial work means any purpose (other than public transport) for which an aircraft is flown if valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight.

(b) If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot the flight shall be deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part III of this Order.


(2) Subject to the provisions of this article, an aircraft in flight shall for the purposes of this Order be deemed to fly for the purposes of public transport:



(a) if valuable consideration is given or promised for the carriage of passengers or cargo in the aircraft on that flight;

(b) if any passengers or cargo are carried gratuitously in the aircraft on that flight by an air transport undertaking, not being persons in the employment of the undertaking (including, in the case of a body corporate, its directors and, in the case of the CAA, the members of the CAA), persons with the authority of the CAA either making any inspection or witnessing any training, practice or test for the purposes of this Order, or cargo intended to be used by any such passengers as aforesaid, or by the undertaking; or

(c) for the purposes of Part III of this Order (other than articles 14(2) and 15(2) thereof), if valuable consideration is given or promised for the primary purpose of conferring on a particular person the right to fly the aircraft on that flight (not being a single-seat aircraft of which the maximum total weight authorised does not exceed 910 kg) otherwise than under a hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement.

I,ve always been surprised the microlight movement didn,t latch on to this exemption.Comments gentlemen!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

That clause in the ANO was BMAA's primary basis for negotiating microlight hire, and making Whopity's statement somewhat incomplete.

G

[Stampe]

Excellent Genghis lets get people into the air as cheaply as possible ,so many people seem to look for reasons to stop activity.