Professional Flying School Behaving Badly
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Re: Professional Flying School Behaving Badly
Still, it would be a bit sneaky if they knew that they were going to stop PPL training, yet still were quite willing to take a punters money, wouldn't it?
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Re: Professional Flying School Behaving Badly
Go back to the original post, he gave up flying after 11 hours in (early) October and intended to resume when the weather improved in the Spring. Therefore a self-imposed suspension of training for 5 months. In the meantime the PPL provider quits.
Take the money and start again with a new school and a new PPL course, at a time when the weather will allow uninterrupted training to complete the PPL.
Take the money and start again with a new school and a new PPL course, at a time when the weather will allow uninterrupted training to complete the PPL.
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Re: Professional Flying School Behaving Badly
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
It is completely without reason.
The only reason that a flying school will give you a discount which is higher than the bank interest is that they find it cheaper to borrow from you than from the bank, which in effect means that they can't borrow from the bank because the bank won't lend them any money.
You know better than professional bankers what makes a good credit risk???
(Well, maybe you do, but I don't.)
The only reason that a flying school will give you a discount which is higher than the bank interest is that they find it cheaper to borrow from you than from the bank, which in effect means that they can't borrow from the bank because the bank won't lend them any money.
You know better than professional bankers what makes a good credit risk???
(Well, maybe you do, but I don't.)
I don't know many contracting type businesses who would not offer a discount for fees paid in advance of work done.
Of course the advice is correct to be very careful about doing it, but that doesn't mean that there are no benefits to both the school and the student.
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Re: Professional Flying School Behaving Badly
The school is behaving quite reasonably. They are offering a refund for the hours not flown. The fact that FlyingFin wanted to do the whole course at one school is really neither here nor there.
Don't forget that FlyinFin entered into a legal contract for a certain number of hours. They certainly wouldn't let him walk away from that contract if he tried to. Why should he let them walk away? The fact that many other schools go bankrupt and shaft their customers, is no reason to accept being shafted to a lesser extent.
Suppose you purchased your home from the plans, and paid your deposit, and first two stage payments. Then the builder decided that they no longer wanted to sell you the house, and gave you a full refund. Would you be happy? I doubt it, particularly if you were now going to have to pay a higher price to replace it.
FlyingFin. What was your hourly cost, that you contracted for, and what is the hourly cost at the school that they have refered you to?
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Re: Professional Flying School Behaving Badly
There are plenty of one side contracts around and they aren't neccessarily illegal. Finding the clause that will screw you is all part of the fun and games when an individual is presented with a contract by a company.
When did Flyinfin start training? Did the school know they were going to shut down the PPL course at that time? Could an average student have finished training in time before they shut down the programme? Were they acting in bad faith? Is it worth giving a lawyer £150 an hour to find this out with no guarantee of success? What would be fair is for Flyinfin to be charged for hours received at the applicable discounted rate and take his balance to the next place. He was probably badly advised to learn to fly at this organisation in the first place, but I assume he is young and he can credit this experience to his studies at the university of life.
Saying 'never pay upfront' is bad advice, as is saying 'always pay up front'. Like all things it depends.
When did Flyinfin start training? Did the school know they were going to shut down the PPL course at that time? Could an average student have finished training in time before they shut down the programme? Were they acting in bad faith? Is it worth giving a lawyer £150 an hour to find this out with no guarantee of success? What would be fair is for Flyinfin to be charged for hours received at the applicable discounted rate and take his balance to the next place. He was probably badly advised to learn to fly at this organisation in the first place, but I assume he is young and he can credit this experience to his studies at the university of life.
Saying 'never pay upfront' is bad advice, as is saying 'always pay up front'. Like all things it depends.
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Don't forget that FlyinFin entered into a legal contract for a certain number of hours. They certainly wouldn't let him walk away from that contract if he tried to. Why should he let them walk away?
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Hey, FlyingFin,
I was stupid enough to pay upfront for flying when I was learning. (I was only 16.. so I can be forgiven for being naive!) The flying school went bust, and even the employees went without pay.
This was at Norwich airport where I have seen numerous flying schools come and go. I did loose money, but luckily the person who re-started the flying school honoured the money that I had lost as a sign of good will.
I would pay in advance in a larger more reputable school.
Anyway, what I did learn, is that GA is very volatile in the UK. There are some serious scoundrels out there, and you should always be one step ahead!
Good luck with the flying.
I was stupid enough to pay upfront for flying when I was learning. (I was only 16.. so I can be forgiven for being naive!) The flying school went bust, and even the employees went without pay.
This was at Norwich airport where I have seen numerous flying schools come and go. I did loose money, but luckily the person who re-started the flying school honoured the money that I had lost as a sign of good will.
I would pay in advance in a larger more reputable school.
Anyway, what I did learn, is that GA is very volatile in the UK. There are some serious scoundrels out there, and you should always be one step ahead!
Good luck with the flying.
Last edited by BRL; 17th Jan 2006 at 22:24.
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It is not very clear what exactly was paid for up front. Was it "a PPL" (seems unlikely) or a block of lessons? IIn either case the school have broken their contract, though how they have broken it depends on what you signed, if you signed anything at all, as this will define the agreement. If it was a basic block purchase of so many hours of lessons, then in addition to the refund you would have a claim for the difference in cost if you have to now buy those same hours lessons elsewhere.
On the other hand, if they did take an advanced payment and agreed to get you through the PPL, then you loss is the cost of completing the PPL elsewhere less any refund. Whether it is worth taking the matter through court really depends on the net financial loss to you. You may well take more hours to pass due to the break in continuity. The fact that this is difficult to quantify does not mean that you cannot recover compensation for this aspect.
The idea which has been put about in this thread that all the school has to do is refund your money for them to be absolved of any further responsibility is wrong. You can recover compensation for any financial loss which flows from the school's breach of contract. If they knew they were going to close the PPL side there may well have been a misrepresentation as well, but this does not add anything to your claim, which would be based upon breach of contract.
On the other hand, if they did take an advanced payment and agreed to get you through the PPL, then you loss is the cost of completing the PPL elsewhere less any refund. Whether it is worth taking the matter through court really depends on the net financial loss to you. You may well take more hours to pass due to the break in continuity. The fact that this is difficult to quantify does not mean that you cannot recover compensation for this aspect.
The idea which has been put about in this thread that all the school has to do is refund your money for them to be absolved of any further responsibility is wrong. You can recover compensation for any financial loss which flows from the school's breach of contract. If they knew they were going to close the PPL side there may well have been a misrepresentation as well, but this does not add anything to your claim, which would be based upon breach of contract.
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Although Justiciar understands your rights, please believe me when I say that GA is a very, very small world. And if the flying school is willing to refund your money, just leave it at that. You are very likely to meet the people working in the school at some other point. For example, you may even find that you have the same examiner. There is much more to be earned from keeping the GA society friendly.
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Justiciar,
How can you say there is a breach of contract without seeing any contract?
For example, when I buy an airline ticket, there are often clauses in the contract which say I cannot get a refund if I don't want to fly. There are often (if not always) clauses in there which say the airline only has to give me my money back if they cancel the flight.
I think my contract for satellite television is similarly one sided. I have to pay for 12 months unless there is some act of god, Sky can cancel services and all they have to do is give me my money back i.e. just not bill me for the remainder of the contract period.
Why are you so sure the contract with the flying school is not equally one sided?
But wouldn't FlyingFin have to find the cheapest flying school within a reasonable distance of his home so he could mitigate his losses (if there are any)
How can you say there is a breach of contract without seeing any contract?
For example, when I buy an airline ticket, there are often clauses in the contract which say I cannot get a refund if I don't want to fly. There are often (if not always) clauses in there which say the airline only has to give me my money back if they cancel the flight.
I think my contract for satellite television is similarly one sided. I have to pay for 12 months unless there is some act of god, Sky can cancel services and all they have to do is give me my money back i.e. just not bill me for the remainder of the contract period.
Why are you so sure the contract with the flying school is not equally one sided?
then in addition to the refund you would have a claim for the difference in cost if you have to now buy those same hours lessons elsewhere
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Your legal case seems weak at best
That's your starting point
In practical terms you have nothing to gain by commencing legal action.
Potential rewward - very little, if anything at all
Potential risk - losing a lot of cash
That's your starting point
In practical terms you have nothing to gain by commencing legal action.
Potential rewward - very little, if anything at all
Potential risk - losing a lot of cash
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How can you say there is a breach of contract without seeing any contract?
The original post refered to paying in advance: "as I paid for my PPL course up front to get a discount" and later "I have already paid for the whole course up front."
Whilst it is true that the school may have various exclusion clauses in its contract (to make it apparantly one sided), which purport to allow it not to fulfill its side of the agreement with impunity, these clauses have to satisfy a test of reasonableness under the Unfair Contract Terms Act. The School would have to show that any terms excluding liability are reasonable: it is not for FlyingFin to show that they are unreasonable. If the school cannot show that they are reasonable they would not be enforced by the court.
slim_slag: the comparisons you make are not entirely valid. Airline ticket sales are governed by international convention (as is liability for breach). The Sky TV comparison you use relates to what is known as Frustration of a contract, when different rules apply. If FlyingFin's flying school had lost all its aircraft in a fire, they could say that the contract was frustrated. This is not the case here: they made a commercial decision to stop doing PPLs without regard to the impact on their students, to whom thay were almost certainly contractually committed. In FlyingFin's case they appear to have been committed for the duration of his PPL. They seem to be in breach of that agreement,
You are right that he has to mitigate his loss, but that does not necessarily mean going to the cheapest alternative. He is entitled to consider the quality of the tuition, the aircraft, location, etc in making his decision.
Whether he actually does anything about it is a personal decision, but the original question was about the legal position.
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Thanks for the answer Justiciar, interesting stuff. So, although I did see your qualifications your answer left me in no doubt you believed "IIn either case the school have broken their contract". Are you now saying it's possible they hadn't?
If its the place I think it is, the "PPL course" included 45 hours of training, all landings at Oxford, pre and post briefings and some training material. It might be hard to work that out fairly. The going rate for an hour of dual appears incredibly high, I doubt one could find anywhere more expensive. It might be argued that the cheaper places are better.
I've checked my Sky contract and nothing in there like planes burning, just simply says they can do what they like, and charge you less. They can also put the prices up during the terms of the agreement. I guess arguing whether that is reasonable will be very lucrative for the lawyers, but not worth it for me
I've been presented with contracts to sign, drawn up by solicitors in fancy and extremely expensive London offices, which my lawyer (cheap and the best I have met) say are totally illegal. In fact he has genuinely wondered whether they were drawn up by a lawyer at all. The game, he says, is that they are betting I cannot afford to take the large company to court to enforce a legal contract. No doubt you know similar stories.
Cheers
If its the place I think it is, the "PPL course" included 45 hours of training, all landings at Oxford, pre and post briefings and some training material. It might be hard to work that out fairly. The going rate for an hour of dual appears incredibly high, I doubt one could find anywhere more expensive. It might be argued that the cheaper places are better.
I've checked my Sky contract and nothing in there like planes burning, just simply says they can do what they like, and charge you less. They can also put the prices up during the terms of the agreement. I guess arguing whether that is reasonable will be very lucrative for the lawyers, but not worth it for me
I've been presented with contracts to sign, drawn up by solicitors in fancy and extremely expensive London offices, which my lawyer (cheap and the best I have met) say are totally illegal. In fact he has genuinely wondered whether they were drawn up by a lawyer at all. The game, he says, is that they are betting I cannot afford to take the large company to court to enforce a legal contract. No doubt you know similar stories.
Cheers
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Slim_Slag
If he paid for "a PPL" then I am sure they have broken the contract. If the charges there are as high as you say they may have done FlyingFin a favour. If he can get equally good or better training elsewhere he may have no loss.
A school could say: "if you pay us £x we will get you through your PPL, but if we change our minds we can just give you some of your money back and walk away" may have the appearance of being legal, but for the reasons I gave earlier is unlikely to be enforceable.
You have hit the nail on the head though. There is a vast difference between theory and practicalities but, most companies get away with it because people are persuaded by the leagalese that it is solid and enforceable when it may not be or fear that the cost of challenging it will be too high. Having long contracts (and London lawyers are very good at this) does not guarantee a sound contract nor that clauses which attempt to avoid liability or limit compensation are enforceable. Most people, understandably, do not appreciate this.
If he paid for "a PPL" then I am sure they have broken the contract. If the charges there are as high as you say they may have done FlyingFin a favour. If he can get equally good or better training elsewhere he may have no loss.
A school could say: "if you pay us £x we will get you through your PPL, but if we change our minds we can just give you some of your money back and walk away" may have the appearance of being legal, but for the reasons I gave earlier is unlikely to be enforceable.
You have hit the nail on the head though. There is a vast difference between theory and practicalities but, most companies get away with it because people are persuaded by the leagalese that it is solid and enforceable when it may not be or fear that the cost of challenging it will be too high. Having long contracts (and London lawyers are very good at this) does not guarantee a sound contract nor that clauses which attempt to avoid liability or limit compensation are enforceable. Most people, understandably, do not appreciate this.
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Pragmatism, contract law, and morals!
They are not entirely good bed fellows!!
Leaving aside whether you have a legal case or not (and there has been much comment), are you prepared to pay a solicitor or have you the expertise AND time to deal with the matter yourself, can you afford to risk the school going bust in the meantime (and then getting a penny in the pound) and do you have any idea whether they are financially sound?
If the answer to any of these questions is no - don’t waste your time, unless you truly believe you are morally correct and don’t mind the risk of losing all your money.
As other have said at least the school has promised to refund you the unused hours. If you truly feel that is an unreasonable offer go and see the owner or a director and explain why you think they should go a little further, and try your hardest to agree a compromise. If you cant reluctantly accept their offer and make sure you depart with a refund UNLESS you are prepared to take the risks I have set out.
A good solicitor will always tell you even if you have the best case in the world there is always a risk the judge will see it differently!!!
They are not entirely good bed fellows!!
Leaving aside whether you have a legal case or not (and there has been much comment), are you prepared to pay a solicitor or have you the expertise AND time to deal with the matter yourself, can you afford to risk the school going bust in the meantime (and then getting a penny in the pound) and do you have any idea whether they are financially sound?
If the answer to any of these questions is no - don’t waste your time, unless you truly believe you are morally correct and don’t mind the risk of losing all your money.
As other have said at least the school has promised to refund you the unused hours. If you truly feel that is an unreasonable offer go and see the owner or a director and explain why you think they should go a little further, and try your hardest to agree a compromise. If you cant reluctantly accept their offer and make sure you depart with a refund UNLESS you are prepared to take the risks I have set out.
A good solicitor will always tell you even if you have the best case in the world there is always a risk the judge will see it differently!!!
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Flying Fin.
Take your money and run.
My knowledge of law is outdated, but one thing I did learn from my studies, is that the only winners in your case will be the lawyers.
As for Pragmatism and Law, don't you just miss, Lord Denning
Take your money and run.
My knowledge of law is outdated, but one thing I did learn from my studies, is that the only winners in your case will be the lawyers.
As for Pragmatism and Law, don't you just miss, Lord Denning
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Cost of going to a small claims court will not be much - you can represent yourself. If you lose, the other side is unlikely to get a costs order against you. But remember that you will have to appear at court to argue your case - you may need time off work to do this, and you may find the experince a little daunting.
But a quick tally up of the damage you may have suffered is under £500 quid. An alternative argument would go along the lines of:
You knew I wanted to pay up front to get the discount on flying hours. If I hadn't paid up front with you, I would have gone to competitor XYZ. You also knew that you would be unable to complete the contract at the time I paid, and therefore the rate you knew you would ultimately charge me for the hours flown was not the rate I agreed to pay. Your behaviour has been deceitful, and it operated on my so that I paid in full to you. I am currently considering my legal options to recover the difference in monies from you, and am also considering the making of a complaint about the directors of this company to the police on the grounds that they have obtained monies from me by using deception, a complaint to the DTI about same directors, and also a complaint to the local trading standards officers. I look forward to hearing from you within 14 days.
Alternatively, you may just take the money and run..........
But a quick tally up of the damage you may have suffered is under £500 quid. An alternative argument would go along the lines of:
You knew I wanted to pay up front to get the discount on flying hours. If I hadn't paid up front with you, I would have gone to competitor XYZ. You also knew that you would be unable to complete the contract at the time I paid, and therefore the rate you knew you would ultimately charge me for the hours flown was not the rate I agreed to pay. Your behaviour has been deceitful, and it operated on my so that I paid in full to you. I am currently considering my legal options to recover the difference in monies from you, and am also considering the making of a complaint about the directors of this company to the police on the grounds that they have obtained monies from me by using deception, a complaint to the DTI about same directors, and also a complaint to the local trading standards officers. I look forward to hearing from you within 14 days.
Alternatively, you may just take the money and run..........
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Quote: The only reason that a flying school will give you a discount which is higher than the bank interest is that they find it cheaper to borrow from you than from the bank
I'm not sure that's entirely right. I've never run a flight school, but if I did I'm sure a major factor would be to keep customers locked in to avoid the cost of continually finding replacements. The phenomenon of PPL students dropping out is well known.
If a county court could be convinced that this is the true reason for the school offering a package discount is to keep the student onboard, then perhaps he would have a case for seeking redress for additional costs if he is forced to switch through no fault of his own. But I'm no lawyer, either..
I'm not sure that's entirely right. I've never run a flight school, but if I did I'm sure a major factor would be to keep customers locked in to avoid the cost of continually finding replacements. The phenomenon of PPL students dropping out is well known.
If a county court could be convinced that this is the true reason for the school offering a package discount is to keep the student onboard, then perhaps he would have a case for seeking redress for additional costs if he is forced to switch through no fault of his own. But I'm no lawyer, either..
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I suspect the discounted rate is the true cost, the non discounted rate is where they get the profit. The discounted rate provides cashflow which also makes the banks happy. So little money to be made in flying schools nowadays, far too often the only profit is made when you sell the plane.