Log Book entries

[bobdee]

Awfully sorry if this seems a dumb question..having a newish PPL that is due to be renewed in a few months time, I am confused as to what constititutes a P2 entry. I have looked at LASORS and searched this forum but cant seem to find a clear definition. Example, the renewal requirement is that 12 hours must be flown in the previous 12 months, 6 as PIC. What constitutes the other 6? Does it have to be PUT, i.e. conversion training, or if you and a friend hire a plane for an hour with the righthand seat PPL navigating and maybe flying some of the time, is the right hand seat P2 and can it be logged as such.
Regs BobDee

[VH AMF]

Re: Log Book entries

Pilot in Command is you noting it in your log book, as "Pilot in Command", so in this case it would be six hours. I think the rest of the hours are flying with an Instructor, but not as Pilot in Command, although you still may be flying the aircraft, the Instructor has the power over you, so than you would place the name of the Instructor in the Pilot In Command section, and the name of yourself in the other section next to PIC. In overall they want you to have flown in a total as 12 hours, in the past 12 months, so it just has to add up to that. But you "Must" have been a PIC for at "Least" 6 hours.

[Whirlybird]

Re: Log Book entries

As a PPL, just forget about P2!!! It only applies to two-pilot aircraft - the big ones that take you on holiday. You (we) log PIC (same as P1) or P/UT if with an instructor. Or occasionally P1S (Pilot in command under supervision) but I don't want to get into the rules for that right now.

So for revalidation, you need at least 6 hours PIC. The others can be P/UT. The rest of the requirements are in LASORS, as you know.

[bobdee]

Re: Log Book entries

Thanks to WB & VHAMF
So to sum up, you need at least 6 hours PIC and the only way the other 6 can count towards revalidation are if they are PUT. Is that correct? Of course PIC is the best way but if funds are limited, its good to know how the legal minimum can be made up. I have seen some folk add every flight they make (back row in PA28) and I suppose thats all part of the flying experience but wouldnt mean diidlysquash in hours counting terms.

[dmjw01]

Re: Log Book entries

Originally Posted by bobdee

So to sum up ..... the only way the other 6 can count towards revalidation are if they are PUT. Is that correct?

No.
You need at least 6 hours PIC. The other six can be PUT, but they don't need to be. You only need one hour with an instructor.
See Irv Lee's FAQ here, and refer to point 9 which answers all your questions.

[dublinpilot]

Re: Log Book entries

So to sum up, you need at least 6 hours PIC and the only way the other 6 can count towards revalidation are if they are PUT.

No that is not correct.

You need 12 hours in the second 12 months of your licence. 6 of those hours must be PIC. You must also have a 1 hour flight with an instructor, therefore 1 of the remaining 6 hours must be Pu/t. The remaining 5 can be any combination of PIC, Pu/t (or the unlikely P1/s).

To put it another way, you do not need 6 hours pu/t, only 1. However more is acceptable, so long as you still have 6 at leasthours PIC (more is acceptable), and a total of 12 hours.

Hope that helps.

dp

[Hour Builder]

Re: Log Book entries

Dp and dmjw01 are both 100% correct. It makes me laugh at the amount of people that think that as they hold a PPL and sit in the right hand seat of a "Single Pilot" aircraft being flown as PIC by someone in the left hand seat, can log time as P2.

[IO540]

Re: Log Book entries

Careful making blanket statements, as they may apply only to a G-reg

[Hour Builder]

Re: Log Book entries

yes but he's talking about renewing a SEP on a UK licence. There is no such thing as P2 (unless he means "dual")or co-pilot in UK terminology when referring to single pilot aircraft operations.

[Whirlybird]

Re: Log Book entries

I have seen some folk add every flight they make (back row in PA28) and I suppose thats all part of the flying experience but wouldnt mean diidlysquash in hours counting terms.

Exactly! I do this if going on long trips on the continent, for instance - it makes a nice record of the trip, and tells me who flew what leg etc. It's nice to look back at on cold, non-flying winter days. Your logbook is your own record, and this is quite legal. BUT if you're doing this, you leave the PIC/Put column blank, and also leave the hours column blank. You cannot count the hours, as anything!

[FlyingForFun]

Re: Log Book entries

In fact, if your logbook has a column for you to note your capacity on the flight (i.e. where you would normally write "P1" or "PUT") and you were just a passenger, you can write "SNY" in that column, meaning "supernumary". But, as Whirly says, make sure you don't add the hours into any of your totals - the entry would purely be for your own nostalgia.

FFF
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[Hour Builder]

Re: Log Book entries

with regards to everyone's comments about logging time where they are a passenger etc, is fine and no one is arguing that. The question at the beginning asked about P2 time, and the point a few of us are trying to make is that dont expect to use this to count towards renewal hours required. Go ahead and log whatever you want, as long as the original poster of this thread knows that this doesnt count towards total flight time, and/or revalidation experience.

HB

[bobdee]

Re: Log Book entries

Many thanks to all the contributors to this thread. I get the message , P2 is a no no. It is clear that there is some confusion regarding dual pilots in SEP craft. If two qualified pilots take a one hour trip and half way into that trip The left says to the right, "You have Control" and it stays that way till the end of the flight, then both can book 30 mins PIC. Presumably if a friend has just purchased a brand new 172 and he lets you fly it on an hours trip providing he is in the right hand seat, You book PIC and he books nothing.
Coming back to the original posting then, Assuming I have six hours PIC solo, three hours conversion training, then all I need is another 3 hours PIC in the last 12 months to make everyone happy. I assume here that the conversion training would count as check time with an instructor.
BD

[FlyingForFun]

Re: Log Book entries

I assume here that the conversion training would count as check as time with an instructor

The requirement is for a 1-hour flight. So if your 3 hours' conversion consists of 4 flights of 45 mins each, then no. If just one flight lasted an hour or more, then yes, but the instructor must sign your logbook to confirm that you did do that flight.

Then, all you need is another 3 hours, and make sure you get an examiner to sign all the necessary paperwork before the date the renewal is due, because it can't be done afterwards even if you had the hours.

FFF
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[englishal]

Re: Log Book entries

i love JAR rules.....They make it so hard for everyone to understand

By the way, does it specifically say "JAA Instructor" anywhere? (i.e. thinking along the lines of the FARs "authorized" instructor).....Because it seems a waste of money to me that anyone who may possibly have more than enough PIC time, may also have several or more hours with a Non-JAA instructor and so forking out for the 1 hours flight is a complete waste of money......

[Andy_R]

Re: Log Book entries

Originally Posted by bobdee

If two qualified pilots take a one hour trip and half way into that trip The left says to the right, "You have Control" and it stays that way till the end of the flight, then both can book 30 mins PIC. Presumably if a friend has just purchased a brand new 172 and he lets you fly it on an hours trip providing he is in the right hand seat, You book PIC and he books nothing.
BD

Not neccessarily. I handed over control for part of a flight today, but that was all it was, him having control. If he was desperate to log P1 time I would have discussed it with him, as he isn't I hadn't even thought about it until now. You can "have control" but unless you have agreed with the Captain (which is what P1 is) that you will log P1, he will log it as his P1 as he is still in command, regardless of who us flying.

[Whirlybird]

Re: Log Book entries

Presumably if a friend has just purchased a brand new 172 and he lets you fly it on an hours trip providing he is in the right hand seat, You book PIC and he books nothing.

Nowhere, to my knowledge, do the regulations say that the captain has to be in any particular seat. So if your friend says that you can be PIC for a flight, and you want to fly from the right seat and log the time, that is perfectly legal. At least, I believe so. Anyone know anything different?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Re: Log Book entries

Originally Posted by Whirlybird

Nowhere, to my knowledge, do the regulations say that the captain has to be in any particular seat.

Club flying order books do sometimes. So if you're a pair of PPLs renting from such a club the pilot in the left hand seat logs all the time, the pilot in the right hand seat logs none, it doesn't matter who was flying.

[Dimensional]

Re: Log Book entries

unless you have agreed with the Captain (which is what P1 is) that you will log P1

Not necessarily -- a large-ish chunk of my flying these days is logged as P1 Non Captain (albeit under a fairly esoteric and non-JAR system).

[Yorks.ppl]

Re: Log Book entries

I recently did my 1 hour with an instructor for revalidation purposes, he told me to put P1S in my log book, whats the diference between that and PUT.