What do i need (rating)
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At the 2003 MCASD at Middle Wallop there was a CAA presentation, by a grey haired man of about 50-60, who put up slides of various planes including a top-end Gulfstream bizjet (single crew certified) and said all of these can be flown on a PPL.
In the context of private flying, can anyone supply a reference for a single crew twin turboprop requiring anything more than
legally:
a PPL/ME and a type rating, or
practically:
a PPL/ME/IR and the type rating
This applying to both N and G.
I add the IR under "practically" because the fuel efficiency will be lousy unless one can fly high, and in the UK and a few other places that means Class A.
As for the typical PPL not having the technical comprehension to fly a King Air, I'd suggest that is nothing to do with the PPL as such. It is the result of the PPL training business existing solely to make money, not to train pilots. If its job was to train pilots, the PPL would be 100 hours minimum (or as long as it takes), would cost £10k-£20k, would include an IR of some sort, and probably more than 50% of candidates would fail. Whereas presently almost anybody can get a PPL if they hang around for long enough. Also most of the present instructors would not be able to teach it.
I once considered doing a PPL in a complex SEP (TB20). Two factors were a problem: almost no instructor I could find would have understood the aircraft thoroughly, and getting insured for the solo portion would be very hard. The solo flights would have to be done in a spamcan, which partially defeats the point.
In the context of private flying, can anyone supply a reference for a single crew twin turboprop requiring anything more than
legally:
a PPL/ME and a type rating, or
practically:
a PPL/ME/IR and the type rating
This applying to both N and G.
I add the IR under "practically" because the fuel efficiency will be lousy unless one can fly high, and in the UK and a few other places that means Class A.
As for the typical PPL not having the technical comprehension to fly a King Air, I'd suggest that is nothing to do with the PPL as such. It is the result of the PPL training business existing solely to make money, not to train pilots. If its job was to train pilots, the PPL would be 100 hours minimum (or as long as it takes), would cost £10k-£20k, would include an IR of some sort, and probably more than 50% of candidates would fail. Whereas presently almost anybody can get a PPL if they hang around for long enough. Also most of the present instructors would not be able to teach it.
I once considered doing a PPL in a complex SEP (TB20). Two factors were a problem: almost no instructor I could find would have understood the aircraft thoroughly, and getting insured for the solo portion would be very hard. The solo flights would have to be done in a spamcan, which partially defeats the point.
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There are reasons for people being trained in "spamcans", firstly cost and second simplicity.
In theory you could learn to fly in any sort of a/c, but in reality you are better to run before you can walk.
Would you teach someone to drive in a Ferrari? No. Be realistic and stick to your capabilities. Once you have mastered the basics in something simple, then I or someone else will teach you how to fly something complex.
Personally I wouldn't teach someone from scratch in a TB20 or the like. I would start with a TB9/10 and then move on from there once the basic mechanics of flight had been learnt properly.
IO sometimes you wind me up something rotten!
is utter b*lls, I don't know many who make much out of teaching, I certainly don't. If I did, then I'd give up the airline career immediately, but I can't as I have a mortgage to pay.
As to the assertation that you couldn't have found an FI who could understand a TB20, do me a favour. It's not exactly an SR71 is it? Since I can find my way around a 737 cockpit and systems fairly well. I don't think the technology is beyond any of us somehow.
The insurance also wouldn't have been too ridiculous, since insurance companies understand that an FI is highly unlikely to send you solo if you weren't ready for it, so the premiums don't change and infact they don't ask if solos are going to happen, only if Training is going to happen on the a/c and they assume you should be trained well enough to cope.
In theory you could learn to fly in any sort of a/c, but in reality you are better to run before you can walk.
Would you teach someone to drive in a Ferrari? No. Be realistic and stick to your capabilities. Once you have mastered the basics in something simple, then I or someone else will teach you how to fly something complex.
Personally I wouldn't teach someone from scratch in a TB20 or the like. I would start with a TB9/10 and then move on from there once the basic mechanics of flight had been learnt properly.
IO sometimes you wind me up something rotten!
It is the result of the PPL training business existing solely to make money, not to train pilots.
As to the assertation that you couldn't have found an FI who could understand a TB20, do me a favour. It's not exactly an SR71 is it? Since I can find my way around a 737 cockpit and systems fairly well. I don't think the technology is beyond any of us somehow.
The insurance also wouldn't have been too ridiculous, since insurance companies understand that an FI is highly unlikely to send you solo if you weren't ready for it, so the premiums don't change and infact they don't ask if solos are going to happen, only if Training is going to happen on the a/c and they assume you should be trained well enough to cope.
IO540 Read ANO Schedule 8 (PPL) Para 1.
You can have a 747 type rating on your PPL! The CAA have issued quite a few over the years.
The PPL lets you fly any aeroplane unremunerated provided you meet the requirements of the Type Rating. For single pilot types this is fairly straight forward however; to get a multi-pilot type on a PPL you must also have passed the ATPL writtens, hold a ME IR and have completed both a MCC Course and a Type Raing course and passed the ATPL Skill Test as a co-pilot.
After that lot you only need to do another 15 hours to get a CPL so it seems a bit pointless, unless you can only hold a Class 2 medical and can afford big metal, or its just for fun.
You can have a 747 type rating on your PPL! The CAA have issued quite a few over the years.
The PPL lets you fly any aeroplane unremunerated provided you meet the requirements of the Type Rating. For single pilot types this is fairly straight forward however; to get a multi-pilot type on a PPL you must also have passed the ATPL writtens, hold a ME IR and have completed both a MCC Course and a Type Raing course and passed the ATPL Skill Test as a co-pilot.
After that lot you only need to do another 15 hours to get a CPL so it seems a bit pointless, unless you can only hold a Class 2 medical and can afford big metal, or its just for fun.
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I don't think it stops at turboprops...you only need a CPL to be paid. Fly anything of your own with a PPL and rating as required.
The ATPL thing in the UK comes about because of the absurd fATPL system and the fact that there is so much expense and effort in passing the exams that you only want to do it once.
A Kingair is not difficult to fly. The systems are more complex and require a bit of thought. The aircraft itself is sweet - why do you think they are so popular?
The ATPL thing in the UK comes about because of the absurd fATPL system and the fact that there is so much expense and effort in passing the exams that you only want to do it once.
A Kingair is not difficult to fly. The systems are more complex and require a bit of thought. The aircraft itself is sweet - why do you think they are so popular?
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King air type rating at Bristol is just short of £5k. It is not hard to do on a PPL it involved a week of training including groundschool exams. It actually fly's like a big Duchess rather than Seneca!
Very docile aircraft easy to fly and not a drama on the go around singel or both donkeys turning. With a type rating there are quite a few people who will let you blag a RHS when they need 2 crew ops. I know of several who let PPL's operate this way when they need the secpmd crew, FREE OF CHARGE of course.
It is like anything in life if you are deterimined you can make it happen. The doubters are usually the people who cant do it themselves and rather than self improve prefer to shoot others down.....
Very docile aircraft easy to fly and not a drama on the go around singel or both donkeys turning. With a type rating there are quite a few people who will let you blag a RHS when they need 2 crew ops. I know of several who let PPL's operate this way when they need the secpmd crew, FREE OF CHARGE of course.
It is like anything in life if you are deterimined you can make it happen. The doubters are usually the people who cant do it themselves and rather than self improve prefer to shoot others down.....
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Having seen the cockpit of a few King Airs I would say that a fully airways legal year-2000-plus SE piston tourer is likely to have as complex avionics, in terms of both navigation and avionics integration. Probably better.
It will take someone with a good technical brain a few days of ground school to learn that lot.
Yet, no type rating is needed for the SEP...
SAS: sorry to wind you up
But, it is genuinely my experience. What I wrote, if you read it carefully, is accurate. There are clever instructors who know complex avionics and who know engine management, but they are very rare, and very sought after. Pprune isn't ever going to be representative but I bet you that if you did a survey across the UK, you'd find that 90% of PPL instructors can't even load a route into a GNSx30. And then one gets to the subtleties of avionics (GPS/NAV/autopilot) integration, en-route/SID/STAR/approach GPS sequencing, and engine management....
And flight training is a business after all. If there was a genuine need to train capable pilots, able to fly fully to privileges, one would not boot them out after 45-70 hours with a piece of paper called "a licence to learn". That's no good to anybody.
It will take someone with a good technical brain a few days of ground school to learn that lot.
Yet, no type rating is needed for the SEP...
SAS: sorry to wind you up
But, it is genuinely my experience. What I wrote, if you read it carefully, is accurate. There are clever instructors who know complex avionics and who know engine management, but they are very rare, and very sought after. Pprune isn't ever going to be representative but I bet you that if you did a survey across the UK, you'd find that 90% of PPL instructors can't even load a route into a GNSx30. And then one gets to the subtleties of avionics (GPS/NAV/autopilot) integration, en-route/SID/STAR/approach GPS sequencing, and engine management....And flight training is a business after all. If there was a genuine need to train capable pilots, able to fly fully to privileges, one would not boot them out after 45-70 hours with a piece of paper called "a licence to learn". That's no good to anybody.
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A type rating at BFC for the Kingair is £1500 for the groundschool, £8500 for the flying and tests and VAT are extra.
So about £12,500 is about right. If on your own a/c it is £4,500 plus VAT.
So about £12,500 is about right. If on your own a/c it is £4,500 plus VAT.
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Yep, not exactly a cheap machine to operate. Let alone buy one in the first place!
It is possible to fly it on a PPL, but if you can afford one, why not just pay for someone else to fly it and you can relax down the back. A pilot is not exactly expensive when compared to the other costs associated with running something as expensive as any twin turbine.
It is possible to fly it on a PPL, but if you can afford one, why not just pay for someone else to fly it and you can relax down the back. A pilot is not exactly expensive when compared to the other costs associated with running something as expensive as any twin turbine.
Re: What do i need (rating)
FF "the absurd fATPL system"
As there is no such thing as "fATPL" it is totally absurd. But some people like to think they have something that they don't have!
As there is no such thing as "fATPL" it is totally absurd. But some people like to think they have something that they don't have!
