Great Flyer article from Flying Dutch on Mountain Flying
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great Flyer article from Flying Dutch on Mountain Flying
Hello FD,
Really enjoyable article. Mr. Seager needs electric shock therapy, however, for his erroneous views on the Super Cub!
I am hoping to take my Super Cub down to Meribel next year and do the full summer rating in it. I have identified some 15-20% slopes here on the West face of Exmoor which I hope to practice into with a tailwind. It's the nearest I can get to an altisurface, although, actually, I can name some pretty challenging strips here in Devon. One is 200m, one way, with a side slip past a tree and once you're on short final I don't think there's a go-around, so if you land too long you have had it.
I have got a 240m field here next to the house with an 8ft hedge at each end that I have earmarked the next time the wind is favourable. The machine can do it easily...
Of course, you don't have altitude and turbulence issues here in quite the same way.
Anyone else got any really good, challenging strips near the West country? I'd love to have a go.
Cheers,
QDM
Really enjoyable article. Mr. Seager needs electric shock therapy, however, for his erroneous views on the Super Cub!
I am hoping to take my Super Cub down to Meribel next year and do the full summer rating in it. I have identified some 15-20% slopes here on the West face of Exmoor which I hope to practice into with a tailwind. It's the nearest I can get to an altisurface, although, actually, I can name some pretty challenging strips here in Devon. One is 200m, one way, with a side slip past a tree and once you're on short final I don't think there's a go-around, so if you land too long you have had it.
I have got a 240m field here next to the house with an 8ft hedge at each end that I have earmarked the next time the wind is favourable. The machine can do it easily...
Of course, you don't have altitude and turbulence issues here in quite the same way.
Anyone else got any really good, challenging strips near the West country? I'd love to have a go.
Cheers,
QDM
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Q,
Thank you for your kind words.
It was a hard task to spend a week in Megeve to get all the work in, so I am very pleased that you enjoyed the article. The writing handywork was the bosses'
I had to concentrate on the flying and modelling.
You can rest assured that Mr S's treatment in capable hands.
We hope to go back in the spring of 06 to finish off the Qualification Montagne (I know your heart must bleed for us)
A trip in the Maule could very well fit into that cunning plan.
I know we are not in Devon but if you want to come over to do some stripping up here, feel free to drop me a PM.
This ain't Devon or the Midlands but thought you would like it nevertheless:
Thank you for your kind words.
It was a hard task to spend a week in Megeve to get all the work in, so I am very pleased that you enjoyed the article. The writing handywork was the bosses'
I had to concentrate on the flying and modelling.
You can rest assured that Mr S's treatment in capable hands.
We hope to go back in the spring of 06 to finish off the Qualification Montagne (I know your heart must bleed for us)
A trip in the Maule could very well fit into that cunning plan.
I know we are not in Devon but if you want to come over to do some stripping up here, feel free to drop me a PM.
This ain't Devon or the Midlands but thought you would like it nevertheless:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Seager's views on the Super Cub had me surprised too.
I have been having fun in Luscombes and Taylorcrafts for the past few years but those who know me are fully aware that I am working hard towards saving up for an immaculate SuperCub...
How dare he criticise the perfect craft for agrarians. He fiddles around in a Mooney and has the audacity to moan about the humble (yet practically perfect) Cub.
My only concern is that as fast as I earn, the Cub's values still outpace me!!
One day....
P.S To stay in line with this thread....I agree it was an excellent article indeed...
I have been having fun in Luscombes and Taylorcrafts for the past few years but those who know me are fully aware that I am working hard towards saving up for an immaculate SuperCub...
How dare he criticise the perfect craft for agrarians. He fiddles around in a Mooney and has the audacity to moan about the humble (yet practically perfect) Cub.
My only concern is that as fast as I earn, the Cub's values still outpace me!!
One day....
P.S To stay in line with this thread....I agree it was an excellent article indeed...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L4 with a 90HP engine and wing tank would be a pretty good substitute for a 150HP Super Cub. If I was looking for a 150 and one of these came up in good nick I would be very tempted and save myself £20K into the bargain.
FD, how long do you think it will take you to get the sign-off, weather permitting? I hope to try and do it in a week. I have a lot of time now in the SC going into challenging strips and some experience of the Alps, so I hope that might be possible. Turbulence, wind and DA are the key differences, along with mountain navigation and strips with no go around, but aircraft handling is aircraft handling.
I must admit I do find summer flying in the Alps fairly hair raising, but that is probably a good thing!
Anyway, this afternoon I spent tootling around Exmoor at 200 feet agl or so most of the time (yeah, yeah complied with Rule 5, so don't any Jobsworths post and tell me off), checking out prehistoric earthworks and going into a number of farmer's fields. The shortest landing roll was under 50m and total field used 100m or so. That's what a SC is about: I could have landed in almost any field I flew over. There aren't many other aircraft one feels this comfortable in. I know Ian Seager wants to sell more mags and be provocative, but honestly! Also, they handle beautifully at low speed and down low.
Thanks for the tips on Nayland and I'd love to make it up your way sometime FD. We can bitch about various things in our professional life too!
Cheers,
QDM
FD, how long do you think it will take you to get the sign-off, weather permitting? I hope to try and do it in a week. I have a lot of time now in the SC going into challenging strips and some experience of the Alps, so I hope that might be possible. Turbulence, wind and DA are the key differences, along with mountain navigation and strips with no go around, but aircraft handling is aircraft handling.
I must admit I do find summer flying in the Alps fairly hair raising, but that is probably a good thing!
Anyway, this afternoon I spent tootling around Exmoor at 200 feet agl or so most of the time (yeah, yeah complied with Rule 5, so don't any Jobsworths post and tell me off), checking out prehistoric earthworks and going into a number of farmer's fields. The shortest landing roll was under 50m and total field used 100m or so. That's what a SC is about: I could have landed in almost any field I flew over. There aren't many other aircraft one feels this comfortable in. I know Ian Seager wants to sell more mags and be provocative, but honestly! Also, they handle beautifully at low speed and down low.
Thanks for the tips on Nayland and I'd love to make it up your way sometime FD. We can bitch about various things in our professional life too!
Cheers,
QDM
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Bath
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've had quite a few people give me their opinions on how great the Cub is. Believe it or not I wrote it because it's what I found, noto to sell more copies although that's obvioulsy always welcome :-)
So, just to be clear...
Cubs are seriously capable aircraft
Cubs are seriously beautiful aeroplanes
The Cub I flew in France had rubbish handling when compared to say a Jodel or a Chipmunk.
Ian
So, just to be clear...
Cubs are seriously capable aircraft
Cubs are seriously beautiful aeroplanes
The Cub I flew in France had rubbish handling when compared to say a Jodel or a Chipmunk.
Ian
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I even a bit slower than normal today? What article?
Q,
They reckon about 20 hours.
Turbulence, wind and DA are the key differences, along with mountain navigation and strips with no go around, but aircraft handling is aircraft handling.
Good aircraft handling skills will no doubt be useful, I would not know
The approach technique they use is a bit different to what we do when going into a short strip.
Rather than dragging it in they come in fairly steep, certainly steeper than I was used to.
All good fun!
FD
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian,
You're right , of course. The Cub has a big fat aerofoil and huge wings. It is sluggish in roll, more responsive in pitch.
A chippie is a hot ship, renowned for its excellent handling and as a preparation for a Spitfire. A Jodel is a beautiful machine, but you won't have the visibility and ultra-low speed handling of a Cub.
If you want to tool about at low speed, enjoy the view and get in and out of strips which make your eyes water, with heavy loads you can't beat it. But, you will obviously never get fighter-like handling. Ye cannae have everything!
FD,
It sounds fantastic. I really look forward to it. One day, I want to fly in here:
http://www.pilotlist.org/montagne/lacfourchu.html
200m strip at 7000ft amsl, 15% incline
QDM
You're right , of course. The Cub has a big fat aerofoil and huge wings. It is sluggish in roll, more responsive in pitch.
A chippie is a hot ship, renowned for its excellent handling and as a preparation for a Spitfire. A Jodel is a beautiful machine, but you won't have the visibility and ultra-low speed handling of a Cub.
If you want to tool about at low speed, enjoy the view and get in and out of strips which make your eyes water, with heavy loads you can't beat it. But, you will obviously never get fighter-like handling. Ye cannae have everything!
FD,
It sounds fantastic. I really look forward to it. One day, I want to fly in here:
http://www.pilotlist.org/montagne/lacfourchu.html
200m strip at 7000ft amsl, 15% incline
QDM
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One day, I want to fly in here:
And a few more for good measure:
and:
As you say the scenery is breathtaking but makes you realise that you have to be well behaved at all times!
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch'; 27th Nov 2005 at 22:30.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyon
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great pics FD, but Lac Fourchu isn't at all like St Jean d'Arves. It is one of the most idyllic spots in the Alps, but quite terrifying!
Here is a link to a video of landing there.
In a Mousquetaire, I'm told that the technique is to cross the lake at 160 km/h, pull up and touch down where the Husky in the video touches. If you misjudge anything, you crash - something which happens quite a lot. I know 3 people who've crashed there if you ever need to be talked out of trying!
Not one for me.
Here is a link to a video of landing there.
In a Mousquetaire, I'm told that the technique is to cross the lake at 160 km/h, pull up and touch down where the Husky in the video touches. If you misjudge anything, you crash - something which happens quite a lot. I know 3 people who've crashed there if you ever need to be talked out of trying!
Not one for me.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adrian,
That looks very hairy! The video gives a good sense of the way in which ground speed increases with altitude and DA. He was really steaming in for a Husky.
I wonder what he was indicating? Not more than 75mph, surely? He was carrying a lot of power going in and increased it as he came over the lake.
Indicating 100mph on the approach would be almost impossible for a cub. I find it amazing that a Mousquetaire has to do that. That gives a groundspeed well over 100mph. Into a 200m strip?! Christ!
It looks bad, but apart from height, not a lot worse than that crazy strip you showed me and Richard a couple of years ago, where Jerome crashed the L4.
Cheers,
David
That looks very hairy! The video gives a good sense of the way in which ground speed increases with altitude and DA. He was really steaming in for a Husky.
I wonder what he was indicating? Not more than 75mph, surely? He was carrying a lot of power going in and increased it as he came over the lake.
Indicating 100mph on the approach would be almost impossible for a cub. I find it amazing that a Mousquetaire has to do that. That gives a groundspeed well over 100mph. Into a 200m strip?! Christ!
It looks bad, but apart from height, not a lot worse than that crazy strip you showed me and Richard a couple of years ago, where Jerome crashed the L4.
Cheers,
David
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyon
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never having landed at Lac Fourchu, I can't really comment. The 160 km/h approach was described by someone who flew with the legendary Henri Giraud. His technique was different from that which is usually taught, and involved a high-speed flat approach, level with or below the touchdown point. (He says that he approached at 180km/h to his landing on the summit of Mont Blanc, in a 150hp Cub.)
Lac Fourchu needs a lot more precision than La Croix Rosier, where I took you. It's 200m long, with a slope of 30% for the first 20 or 30m, then 15% and decreasing. If you look closely at the video, you'll see that about 1 second before touching down they fly over a boulder at the top of the unlandable section. That boulder has removed quite a few undercarriages in its time, so there is no margin for error if you land short. If you fly a fast approach intending to touch down on the steep slope, and overshoot slightly, the ground will appear to fall away from you as the slope flattens, and you will land very long.
Croix Rosier is a little longer (about 230m), has a relatively gentle slope at the touchdown point which makes life quite easy, and then a steepening slope to help you slow down. It is also very smooth, unlike Lac Fourchu.
The other notorious problem with Lac Fourchu is the takeoff. At most altisurfaces, you can trade height for speed straight after takeoff. At Lac Fourchu, assuming you miss the rocks on the left, you need to climb as soon as you are off the ground.
Check this take off video.
It's a place that needs a level of skill and currency that I don't have, unfortunately.
Lac Fourchu needs a lot more precision than La Croix Rosier, where I took you. It's 200m long, with a slope of 30% for the first 20 or 30m, then 15% and decreasing. If you look closely at the video, you'll see that about 1 second before touching down they fly over a boulder at the top of the unlandable section. That boulder has removed quite a few undercarriages in its time, so there is no margin for error if you land short. If you fly a fast approach intending to touch down on the steep slope, and overshoot slightly, the ground will appear to fall away from you as the slope flattens, and you will land very long.
Croix Rosier is a little longer (about 230m), has a relatively gentle slope at the touchdown point which makes life quite easy, and then a steepening slope to help you slow down. It is also very smooth, unlike Lac Fourchu.
The other notorious problem with Lac Fourchu is the takeoff. At most altisurfaces, you can trade height for speed straight after takeoff. At Lac Fourchu, assuming you miss the rocks on the left, you need to climb as soon as you are off the ground.
Check this take off video.
It's a place that needs a level of skill and currency that I don't have, unfortunately.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Adrian,
180km/h IAS is about 112mph. The idea of an approach and landing at that speed in a PA18-150, even at 15000ft+ is pretty mindboggling. Somebody who can use one of these things can use their whizz wheel to tell us what the TAS would be -- pretty damned high, I think!
I wonder if people wiping out their undercarriage is anything to do with flying in in low wing aircraft? I can't imagine it helps when judging proximity to a rock.
Anyway, for the moment the idea of La Croix Rosier is bottom-puckering enough for me!
David
180km/h IAS is about 112mph. The idea of an approach and landing at that speed in a PA18-150, even at 15000ft+ is pretty mindboggling. Somebody who can use one of these things can use their whizz wheel to tell us what the TAS would be -- pretty damned high, I think!
I wonder if people wiping out their undercarriage is anything to do with flying in in low wing aircraft? I can't imagine it helps when judging proximity to a rock.
Anyway, for the moment the idea of La Croix Rosier is bottom-puckering enough for me!
David
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyon
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi David,
Indeed, an incredible speed for an approach in a Super Cub. If you have an ultra-fast connection, click here to see the film of the exploit. (Over 100Mb.)
Giraud described it at his greatest ever achievement, saying:
C'était le 23 juin 1960, je me suis posé à 4807 m avec un Piper sur une arête où il y a la place de faire atterir deux hélicos. Et pas question d'attérrir à l'horizontal. Il faut se jeter dans la paroi à 180km/h. Graver la pente et s'arrêter pile sur le sommet! C'est diabolique!
(Sorry for the French.)
He also said j'ai horreur de la médiocrité.
Indeed, an incredible speed for an approach in a Super Cub. If you have an ultra-fast connection, click here to see the film of the exploit. (Over 100Mb.)
Giraud described it at his greatest ever achievement, saying:
C'était le 23 juin 1960, je me suis posé à 4807 m avec un Piper sur une arête où il y a la place de faire atterir deux hélicos. Et pas question d'attérrir à l'horizontal. Il faut se jeter dans la paroi à 180km/h. Graver la pente et s'arrêter pile sur le sommet! C'est diabolique!
(Sorry for the French.)
He also said j'ai horreur de la médiocrité.
