ppl limits

[cessnasey]

hi.

i recently started learning to fly (havnt been able to do much due to weather) and am color deficient so i am aware my flying can only go as far as private flying.

however after reading recent posts about the "give up rate" of PPLs, it got me thinking. so i started looking into what available extensions there are to a PPL being color deficiant. im aware i cant do nite flying. can anyone advise what other extended options would be available to me being a color blind PPL?

thanks

[S-Works]

being colour blind does not neccesarily prevent you from night flying. I have a friend who is red green colour blind nad has a night rating. As i recall you can do a lantern test or something instead. I would consult the CAA medical department for advice.

I dont think there are any restrictions on colour for IMC or IR either.

[wombat13]

Don't want to sound too glib, but I don't see how being colour deficient would stop you from getting an aerobatic rating.

You just have to be mad

The Wombat

[Sans Anoraque]

My Grandad was colour blind and he flew gliders into Arnhem.

At night.

[IO540]

I know of one definite case who failed not only the Isihara plates at his AME but also the CAA/Gatwick lantern test, and after hassling the CAA for ages got an IMC Rating. Restricted to day flying only. Prior to this happening, it was widely believed that this was impossible.

I know nothing about this bit but would be very suprised if an IR was obtainable, especially from the CAA. The CAA even refuse (repeatedly) an IR if the candidate fails the Class 1 audiogram in one ear, although I've heard of one case who got an IR with one ear failing the initial limits but being in spec for the renewal limits. The fact that a pilot who just passes the renewal limit (in both ears) will be deaf as a post doesn't bother anybody; this is a nice job creation scheme.

Important to note that failing the Isihara test means nothing. It is the lantern test that is definitive. That's what I did; passed the CAA LT 100% while failing the isihara plates miserably. The CAA letter which one gets after that is the most priceless piece of paper - even the FAA accepts it for the FAA PPL (which includes night privileges as standard).

The FAA might offer other options, involving the viewing of actual lamps aimed at the pilot from a control tower. Again, no need to know for me so I have no info. And, one can fly a G-reg, worldwide, on an FAA PPL. The FAA route is THE route of choice if one wants an IR for private flying (or for bizjet flying, perhaps) but then one needs an N-reg plane which basically implies buying one.

Sans Anoraque - I think the bar on night flight just because one can't pass the colour vision tests is a bit stupid. Firstly, most of the people (usually men) that fail the tests can in fact see all the colours in the cockpit just fine. Secondly, tower lights are almost never used these days, and anybody with sense will carry a portable radio in case of a total electrics failure. Thirdly, there is nothing to see when in IMC, so what's the point in see-and-avoid when a suitably rated pilot could be in IMC at any time, in Class G, without any ATS service? It's all barmy.

[Engine overtemp]

I think the restriction on night flying for colour blind aviators is down to collision avoidance (coloured nav lights) and not your ability to see the instruments!

[IO540]

Yes, but if you are appropriately rated then you could be in IMC and then you can't see other traffic anyway, so on that line of reasoning there should be no flight in IMC without positive radar control.

The statistical reality is that you could fly around blindfolded, and so long as you keep out of somebody's airfield circuit, you would die of old age long before hitting something. The see-and-avoid system doesn't actually work; it's a myth that has persisted for decades. Sure, you can spot a lot of planes by looking out of the window, but most planes are on straight trajectories (particularly at night e.g. not a lot of aeros or gliders) so a target on a genuine collision course will always be a totally stationary spot, regardless of its colour.

Time to duck before everybody jumps on me

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Time to duck before everybody jumps on me

Er, I think we'd rather you didn't explain it to our families and passengers quite like that, but it's difficult to disagree much ...

[Monocock]

Cessnasey

One thing's for sure. Colour blind or not, you should thank your lucky stars that the ground exams are multiple choice and not written.

[IO540]

Someone very close to me is a university lecturer and I am thus reliably informed that a large % of today's degree candidates, and an almost as large % of graduates, are unable to write a single meaningful paragraph. I've seen the work she takes home for marking and it's absolutely astonishing.

Of course there are still establishments where this isn't true but if one had to write answers properly most "young" people today would never be able to pass any exams.

[cessnasey]

so i cant get an IMC rating being colorblind? i thought this was ok?

[Sans Anoraque]

Whooosh!!
(Sound of Monocock and I0540 going completely over cessnasey's head!)

[cessnasey]

definitly! hey im new to flying, got 3 hours logged! go easy on me...

done the lantern. and the beyne lantern, failed both. wanted to do it again but the caa wont have it!

anyhow. i can handle not being able to fly at nite, but would like to know i got the option of an IMC and would also love to do aerobatic rating.

thanks for all the input/replys.

[ThePirateKing]

Cessnasey,

As a CVD PPL, I can categorically state that you CAN get an IMC rating. (You couldn't 5 years ago, but the CAA actually fought the case with the JAA Medical Division and got the 'VFR only' bit of the CVL endorsement removed.)

Also, you only need a class 1 medical (+ audiogram) to get a full IR. Unfortunately, the other thing you need before you begin IR training is a Night Rating, which as a CVD you cannot get.

Hope that helps,

TPK

PS There's an extremely long thread on this in the medical forum.

[OVC002]

There must be somebody in the know, who can give a reason why it is impossible to obtain a night qualification, and hence an IR, as a result of colour blindness.

[cessnasey]

thank you very much for clearing that up for me.

[Rod1]

Welcome to the camaraderie of the air!

The bottom line is that there are 100’s of airfields to visit, lots of different aircraft to fly and a multitude of people to meet and being colour blind is unlikely to have a significant impact on any of it. Most private pilots who have a night rating do not use it and the same is true of the IMC.

Get your licence, get into a group or other arrangement that allows you to fly regularly and enjoy flying, it is a great hobby. This is true if you want to visit every airfield in France, become world aerobatic champion or any one of a 100 other things, all of which you could do!

Rod1

[IO540]

Most private pilots who have a night rating do not use it and the same is true of the IMC.

I can see where you are coming from, but have to say that while night flight is perhaps always avoidable, an IMC Rating can be extremely useful, and indeed it is very difficult to do flights of any length in the UK without it. It also gives you VMC on top privileges outside the UK (anywhere this is permitted under VFR) and that is very useful for flying into Europe.

For aerobatics, none of this is relevant.

While one can always be accused of pushing a novice into something he/she is not sure about, one can also argue for doing things as early as possible so as to keep as many options open as possible. Getting the colour vision thing sorted early on keeps all the options open for later.

[Rod1]

IO540/cessnasey

Now lets see;

807 hours TT

8 h Night flight

112 French airfields visited

600 h “serous” touring

110 hours of IMC of which 60 were practice or test and 15 local flight weather checks.

About 9.5% of my “serous” touring required an IMC rating, so you do not have to have an IMC to tour seriously. Take a look at the number of high speed PFA aircraft flying the length and breath of Europe for further confirmation.

IF I had had a colour vision problem I could still have done almost all of the above.

Come on in the water is lovely!

Rod1
PS I gave up on the world aerobatic champ side but the airfield one is going ok, as is building my own aircraft, in which I plan to set at least one world record. Flying is FUN provided you do not let the b******s get you down!

[Monocock]

cessnasey

Over on the girls forum there is this that you might find interesting

Good luck with it