Throttle = Height, Stick = Speed?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: London
Throttle = Height, Stick = Speed?
Help!
Had my first lesson with a new instructor yesterday for my PPL (already have 11 hours from 10 years ago).
When he got round to checking me in the circuit he told me to adjust my final approach speed (PA28) with THROTTLE?
Now as far as I remember (and from what I read in "Stick and Rudder") I thought one should control the airspeed with the elevator and use the throttle to adjust your height or does this change during the final approach?
I'd appreciate any comments from seasoned flyers or instructors as my circuit work needs improvement and I dont need this added confusion in the final stages of the approach
Thanks in advance
Alan
Had my first lesson with a new instructor yesterday for my PPL (already have 11 hours from 10 years ago).
When he got round to checking me in the circuit he told me to adjust my final approach speed (PA28) with THROTTLE?
Now as far as I remember (and from what I read in "Stick and Rudder") I thought one should control the airspeed with the elevator and use the throttle to adjust your height or does this change during the final approach?
I'd appreciate any comments from seasoned flyers or instructors as my circuit work needs improvement and I dont need this added confusion in the final stages of the approach
Thanks in advance
Alan
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: London
Thanks for the link. I did search for similar posts but all it did was to confuse me some more
Greeners appears to sum it up best for me:
"Initially at our school we teach attitude for speed; when climbing at full power, or descending in the glide, there is obviously no option. However, we 'flick the switch' once the student has reached a designated 500 foot point and revert to 'point and shoot', using attitude to point at a consistent spot on the runway and throttle to manage speed, and find that most people find ths an easier approach to make consistent early landings."
But many appear to contradict what he says when putting forward their preferred method of final approach airspeed/height control.
Air Pilots Manual says control speed with elevator and height with throttle during final approach but I dont particularily want an argument with my instructor during this critical phase of flight.
Saying that my final landing yesterday was a greaser using his method
Alan
Greeners appears to sum it up best for me:
"Initially at our school we teach attitude for speed; when climbing at full power, or descending in the glide, there is obviously no option. However, we 'flick the switch' once the student has reached a designated 500 foot point and revert to 'point and shoot', using attitude to point at a consistent spot on the runway and throttle to manage speed, and find that most people find ths an easier approach to make consistent early landings."
But many appear to contradict what he says when putting forward their preferred method of final approach airspeed/height control.
Air Pilots Manual says control speed with elevator and height with throttle during final approach but I dont particularily want an argument with my instructor during this critical phase of flight.
Saying that my final landing yesterday was a greaser using his method
Alan
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
With a low powered aeroplane, you need armfuls of power for a small speed change with full flap selected (thinking C152 in particular) which can destabilise the approach quite significantly potentially requiring a lot of trimming. This isn't particularly desirable when you're first starting out which is why elevator=speed, power=RoD is generally taught. I'm not especially familiar with the PA28 so it may be that it's less of an issue with this type. The best suggestion: ask your instructor.
However, once you move onto something a bit more sporty.....
However, once you move onto something a bit more sporty.....
Fixed+Rotary (aircraft, not washing lines)
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Peak District, Yorkshire, UK
Throttle = Height, Stick = Speed is what I've been taught and use in the PA28. Always and never, ever, anything different.
Aiming for 70kts on the final approach, everything lined up for a greaser of a landing and it is fine. But things don't always go to plan so I pitch down to maintain the speed, keeping to 70kts (slowing down is much easier ;-))
Sometimes though this might bring you a little low on the approach so power is needed to get some height.
Once you start to do the two together quite smoothly it can appear that in order to maintain 70kts you are applying power, but in reality you are pitching down, gaining speed, losing height, applying power, gaining height - maintaining the right approach.
Does that make sense?
Aiming for 70kts on the final approach, everything lined up for a greaser of a landing and it is fine. But things don't always go to plan so I pitch down to maintain the speed, keeping to 70kts (slowing down is much easier ;-))
Sometimes though this might bring you a little low on the approach so power is needed to get some height.
Once you start to do the two together quite smoothly it can appear that in order to maintain 70kts you are applying power, but in reality you are pitching down, gaining speed, losing height, applying power, gaining height - maintaining the right approach.
Does that make sense?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh for gods sake, not again!
There is no magic method that is universal to all types or organisations.
Stick and power work in concert ... Power & Pitch = Performance and different types/scenarios/organisations use different techniques to apply this.
So often in light aircraft, students are taught to use power to control sink and stick to control airspeed, but in airliners it is common practice for instructors to teach speed control with power, sink rate with stick.
Do we really need another 87 posts? I'm losing the will to live
I would advise any students reading this thread to listen to their instructor and follow the technique that they are taught.
Ands BTW, My Data, you can easily control a PA28 by using power for speed, stick for sink rate, I've done it and it also responds well to the opposite approach - in short, it is a very forgiving, docile aeroplane.
There is no magic method that is universal to all types or organisations.
Stick and power work in concert ... Power & Pitch = Performance and different types/scenarios/organisations use different techniques to apply this.
So often in light aircraft, students are taught to use power to control sink and stick to control airspeed, but in airliners it is common practice for instructors to teach speed control with power, sink rate with stick.
Do we really need another 87 posts? I'm losing the will to live
I would advise any students reading this thread to listen to their instructor and follow the technique that they are taught.
Ands BTW, My Data, you can easily control a PA28 by using power for speed, stick for sink rate, I've done it and it also responds well to the opposite approach - in short, it is a very forgiving, docile aeroplane.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,102
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From: E Anglia
Interestingly enough, on an ILS approach, the teaching is throttle for speed, like when you've got a bizzjet up your chuff and the Atco wants you to get a move on and stick (or yoke) to nail the glideslope.
So you pays your money..........
Safe flying
Edited: EA beat me to it....
So you pays your money..........
Safe flying
Edited: EA beat me to it....
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 581
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From: Bordeaux, France
So stick changes throttle and hieght changes.......errrr....
I am sure I was originally taught one way or the other, but I honestly cant remember now.....I just sort of do whats necessary to keep everything as stable/lined up/smooth as possible without really thinking about it.....
Now I know that I am way less experienced than many on here who say the always use one or the other.....
....and Im sure that now we are discussing it I will start thinking about it next time I fly and that my flying and ability to land OK will go out the window all of a sudden..
Who started this.....again....
Regards, SD..
I am sure I was originally taught one way or the other, but I honestly cant remember now.....I just sort of do whats necessary to keep everything as stable/lined up/smooth as possible without really thinking about it.....
Now I know that I am way less experienced than many on here who say the always use one or the other.....
....and Im sure that now we are discussing it I will start thinking about it next time I fly and that my flying and ability to land OK will go out the window all of a sudden..
Who started this.....again....
Regards, SD..
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
In my 'plane I've noticed if I don't use the throttle I don't go up.
If I do, I can.
It also seems that if I pull back I slow down and if I push forwards I go faster (and it makes my tummy feel funny).
What I'm looking into now is the effects of combining these actions.
I'll keep you posted
If I do, I can.
It also seems that if I pull back I slow down and if I push forwards I go faster (and it makes my tummy feel funny).
What I'm looking into now is the effects of combining these actions.
I'll keep you posted
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
Here we go again.........
As Mono has said, the stick and the throttle are interrelated. There is no one technique for approaches, rather a combination.
For example, if you find yourself high on an approach and then reduce the power whilst keeping the nose in exactly the same attitude, then you'll start to slow down as well as sink faster.
So if you are high, reduce power and lower the nose slightly, if low increase power and raise the nose.
All controls in an a/c effect something else, the trick is to anticipate what will happen when you make any movement of a control.
It doesn't matter what you fly, from a PA18 to a 747, the basic principles are the same, the difference being the inertia of the a/c. Believe it or not, speed control in something big and heavy is actually far easier than in a light a/c, but if you do stuff it up, it's harder to get something big settled down again, hence the check at 500' AGL on approach to make sure you are stable. (Speed, flightpath and configuration.) If you aren't, you go-around.
Getting an approach stablised early is critical, for a start make sure the a/c is trimmed out correctly. (when will most instructors start teaching this correctly!) Once you are trimmed out at the right speed, you'll find it only takes small control movements to keep the a/c where you want it and everything will suddenly seem so much easier.
As Mono has said, the stick and the throttle are interrelated. There is no one technique for approaches, rather a combination.
For example, if you find yourself high on an approach and then reduce the power whilst keeping the nose in exactly the same attitude, then you'll start to slow down as well as sink faster.
So if you are high, reduce power and lower the nose slightly, if low increase power and raise the nose.
All controls in an a/c effect something else, the trick is to anticipate what will happen when you make any movement of a control.
It doesn't matter what you fly, from a PA18 to a 747, the basic principles are the same, the difference being the inertia of the a/c. Believe it or not, speed control in something big and heavy is actually far easier than in a light a/c, but if you do stuff it up, it's harder to get something big settled down again, hence the check at 500' AGL on approach to make sure you are stable. (Speed, flightpath and configuration.) If you aren't, you go-around.
Getting an approach stablised early is critical, for a start make sure the a/c is trimmed out correctly. (when will most instructors start teaching this correctly!) Once you are trimmed out at the right speed, you'll find it only takes small control movements to keep the a/c where you want it and everything will suddenly seem so much easier.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 188
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From: Goodwood
Canspam
As has been pointed out, both the stick and the throttle have an impact on both speed and flightpath, and after a while it will all become second nature. But that's no help when you're starting to learn, so most FIs assign an individual function to each control.
Because of the glide and full power climb scenarios already described, where attitude clearly controls speed, many FIs don't want to teach a different method for the final approach; it's all too confusing. However, I feel strongly that FOR MOST STUDENTS that the 'point and shoot' technique is more intuitive and easier to grasp.
I don't do a huge amount of ab-initio teaching, mostly postPPL training, but my experience has definitely been that power for speed on final approach works best. I was lucky enough to spend a couple of days with John Farley a few months ago, who in his articles always highlights the situation where a pilot gets low and slow on final approach; the only option there is power for speed! He also claims that most air forces and flying organisations around the world use this approach, apart from the US Navy - and GA....
As has been pointed out, both the stick and the throttle have an impact on both speed and flightpath, and after a while it will all become second nature. But that's no help when you're starting to learn, so most FIs assign an individual function to each control.
Because of the glide and full power climb scenarios already described, where attitude clearly controls speed, many FIs don't want to teach a different method for the final approach; it's all too confusing. However, I feel strongly that FOR MOST STUDENTS that the 'point and shoot' technique is more intuitive and easier to grasp.
I don't do a huge amount of ab-initio teaching, mostly postPPL training, but my experience has definitely been that power for speed on final approach works best. I was lucky enough to spend a couple of days with John Farley a few months ago, who in his articles always highlights the situation where a pilot gets low and slow on final approach; the only option there is power for speed! He also claims that most air forces and flying organisations around the world use this approach, apart from the US Navy - and GA....
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
The usual differentiation between the two different 'techniques' is that one works best for light inertia a/c (little ones) and the other works better for high inertia a/c.
Next, however, comes the debate about what constitutes a high or low inertia machine.
As said before, do what you need to to keep the a/c going where you want it and don't get too low and slow, you start entering a whole world of problems then!
Next, however, comes the debate about what constitutes a high or low inertia machine.
As said before, do what you need to to keep the a/c going where you want it and don't get too low and slow, you start entering a whole world of problems then!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
Oh for gods sake, not again!
I for one won't be contributing to this redundant thread ... we've "been there, done that", and really there is nothing more that can (or should) be added to the former thread.
