Flying suits & GA pilots
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A few companies (e.g. Flightstore) offer them but many are poly-cotton...!
The Flying Shop, Biggin Hill, offers Nomex in various colours (http://www.ekmpowershop.com/ekmps/sh...AYCAT&catid=41). Also lots of choice here: http://www.flightsuits.com/products.html but they are in the US so you would need to ask them about shipping.
Tim
The Flying Shop, Biggin Hill, offers Nomex in various colours (http://www.ekmpowershop.com/ekmps/sh...AYCAT&catid=41). Also lots of choice here: http://www.flightsuits.com/products.html but they are in the US so you would need to ask them about shipping.
Tim
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Yeah, ok Flash- maybe I waxed a little too lyrical! 
All the comments are very interesting, though, because after mmfph years in aviation I have yet (very thankfully) to witness a serious accident, let alone be involved in one. If it does happen, however, I don't want to be left saying "I wish..."
I quite agree about the harnesses. I've seen Vauxhall Novas with better straps.
All the comments are very interesting, though, because after mmfph years in aviation I have yet (very thankfully) to witness a serious accident, let alone be involved in one. If it does happen, however, I don't want to be left saying "I wish..."
I quite agree about the harnesses. I've seen Vauxhall Novas with better straps.
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nomex is inherently flameproof - it's intrinsic in the fabric itself and isn't the result of a treatment of any kind.
there's nothing you can do to it (including washing it every day for 10 years) which will make it any less flameproof than the day it was made.
Speaking of fire resistancy: it's also noteworthy that Nomex is not fireproof, and will ignite in higher temperatures (above 700 degrees, IIRC). Although it is certainly better than many other materials (and much safer than polyester), it only buys you a few seconds in the event of a fire.
The best source for reliable information on fire resistancy is the auto racing community: where it is taken rather more seriously than in aviation. Additionally, magazines like NATA Skylines (published by the
North American Trainer Association) and Warbirds (published by the EAA Warbirds of America) occasionally feature good articles on protective clothing, including reprints of U.S. Navy safety bulletins, etc. See e.g. "Do You Know Nomex?", NATA Skylines, April 1987, page 20
Ich bin ein Prooner.
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I hope you don't mind me mentioning this here, it is rather off-thread, but seeing as it is an excellent thread in which various safety issues are being mentioned, here goes.
Many light aircraft I see have a powder-type fire extinguisher in the cockpit / cabin. It is important that you realise that if you discharge a powder extinguisher inside the cabin of an aircraft whilst in flight, the effect will be one of probably instantaneous disablement of anyone in the cabin.
By its very nature, the powder suffocates the fire, and everything else along with it.
I don't pretend to know what the answer to this enigma is, and I am uncertain what the position is with the likes of Halon these days.
I would recommend for those of you who haven't seen or experienced the effects of a powder extinguisher, that you may singly or in groups, clubs or whatever, buy a cheap one purely to discharge it somewhere safe, and judge for yourselves.
Again, sorry to hijack the thread, but it is a concern of mine.
N.Z.
Many light aircraft I see have a powder-type fire extinguisher in the cockpit / cabin. It is important that you realise that if you discharge a powder extinguisher inside the cabin of an aircraft whilst in flight, the effect will be one of probably instantaneous disablement of anyone in the cabin.
By its very nature, the powder suffocates the fire, and everything else along with it.
I don't pretend to know what the answer to this enigma is, and I am uncertain what the position is with the likes of Halon these days.
I would recommend for those of you who haven't seen or experienced the effects of a powder extinguisher, that you may singly or in groups, clubs or whatever, buy a cheap one purely to discharge it somewhere safe, and judge for yourselves.
Again, sorry to hijack the thread, but it is a concern of mine.
N.Z.
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That had never crossed my mind. I guess CO2 would be the same, though perhaps it would take a little more time. I had noticed that in most light a/c they're under the seat which, post forced landing, could well be buckled on top of it. Not much use if you can't get it out.
(Can't think where I've heard that before!
)
(Can't think where I've heard that before!
)
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Gotta be honest....
Grew up with the RAFVR(T) mentality - had to wear a full RAF Mk 14 Flying suit and issue flying boots (Wish I still had them!) and gloves ------ for flying Viking Gliders at a VGS. May seem poseur material, but the gloves were cut to ribbons within a season, after hauling cables, gliders, and the like. We used to roast in summer, and often complained about the "Growbags" that we wore. We were just told that these were RAF aircrew issue, and to get on with it.
I still fly wearing gloves, and a flying suit if something old or military (Firefly, Chippie, etc) but if I am driving a Warrior or Club Cessna, then I tend to wear cotton - long sleeved shirts, chinos, cotton socks, and stout leather shoes.
At work, I deliver Flight Safety Awareness courses, and we advise that stout shoes are essential, and nylons are a complete NoNo... Have you seen the injuries after man made fibres melt into the flesh.... Not nice I assure you.
Like Evil J (Hi MAte - been biking recently?) I too ride, and have full leathers for long serious ride outs. I realise that statistically I stand more chance of being involved in an accident whilst commuting to work, but I travel at very early times of day, so Leather jacket and jeans are the norm. I would NEVER wear shorts on a bike. Road Rash is nasty too.
So, I say - Wear your flight suit if you want. Yes, I am sure that some folks may regard your attire as odd - but who cares? You will look more odd wearing skin grafts if it does go pear shaped.
Cheers
Grew up with the RAFVR(T) mentality - had to wear a full RAF Mk 14 Flying suit and issue flying boots (Wish I still had them!) and gloves ------ for flying Viking Gliders at a VGS. May seem poseur material, but the gloves were cut to ribbons within a season, after hauling cables, gliders, and the like. We used to roast in summer, and often complained about the "Growbags" that we wore. We were just told that these were RAF aircrew issue, and to get on with it.
I still fly wearing gloves, and a flying suit if something old or military (Firefly, Chippie, etc) but if I am driving a Warrior or Club Cessna, then I tend to wear cotton - long sleeved shirts, chinos, cotton socks, and stout leather shoes.
At work, I deliver Flight Safety Awareness courses, and we advise that stout shoes are essential, and nylons are a complete NoNo... Have you seen the injuries after man made fibres melt into the flesh.... Not nice I assure you.
Like Evil J (Hi MAte - been biking recently?) I too ride, and have full leathers for long serious ride outs. I realise that statistically I stand more chance of being involved in an accident whilst commuting to work, but I travel at very early times of day, so Leather jacket and jeans are the norm. I would NEVER wear shorts on a bike. Road Rash is nasty too.
So, I say - Wear your flight suit if you want. Yes, I am sure that some folks may regard your attire as odd - but who cares? You will look more odd wearing skin grafts if it does go pear shaped.
Cheers
Seatbelts and extinguishers are a very interesting topic. My ancient brass fire extinguisher is passed as healthy by weighing it. I suspect it is the original (1946) unit or at least from that era. I have been assured by those that know that it WILL work in the event of it being required. Maybe I should change the mountings (placed conveniently under the passengers thighs) for one that will hold my far lighter car type extinguisher. I used to have a Halon extinguisher in my car as I have seen them demonstrated and they are very effective. Sadly due to greenhouse gases etc etc they have been replaced by less efffective fire stoppers. I have had to use a dry powder extinguisher in anger once when I was working on my my car and it went whoof. One thing I wasn't aware of at the time is that some (all??) dry powder extinguishers are "one shot", ie; you pull the trigger and it discharges until empty. I ended up standing in a huge cloud of blue powder that was very disorientating, I had to throw the extinguisher as far away from me as possible and get out of the cloud into fresh air. Apparently me and the whole front of the car were invisible. The thought of discharging such a cloud in an enclosed cockpit doesn't bear thinking about. Forget IMC training, you won't be able to see the instrument panel! 
I was putting the old Auster through stalls, steep turns, dives, climbs etc yesterday evening and thought, "now I see why you have to fit a four point harness to do aeros in the Auster". The existing lap & diagonal setup does not make you feel secure while executing anything that involves even mild negative G.
I keep meaning to buy a flying suit as Annie the Auster is an oily beast with limited stowage when two up. It will definitely be a Nomex one when I get it. I always wear gloves in the cockpit as everything is sharp plus I need the grip of leather on the prop blade for starting the old girl.
I was putting the old Auster through stalls, steep turns, dives, climbs etc yesterday evening and thought, "now I see why you have to fit a four point harness to do aeros in the Auster". The existing lap & diagonal setup does not make you feel secure while executing anything that involves even mild negative G.
I keep meaning to buy a flying suit as Annie the Auster is an oily beast with limited stowage when two up. It will definitely be a Nomex one when I get it. I always wear gloves in the cockpit as everything is sharp plus I need the grip of leather on the prop blade for starting the old girl.
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I used to wear a flying suit all the time in the Chipmunk, because I couldn't afford to keep replacing my other clothes!
It's almost impossible to do a proper pre-flight without getting oil on you, and ours had the additional habit of dripping oil onto the pilot's left leg during aeros! (Eventually traced to a leaky junction to the oil pressure feed pipe).
It's almost impossible to do a proper pre-flight without getting oil on you, and ours had the additional habit of dripping oil onto the pilot's left leg during aeros! (Eventually traced to a leaky junction to the oil pressure feed pipe).
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Halon
Halon is definitely the only way to go; if you can get it.
I have no idea what the position is in the UK, but here (1) Halon is banned due to environmental concerns; however, (2) there is an exemption for aviation use, so Halon remains quite legal for cockpit extinguishers, fitted engine compartment systems, etc.
Perhaps you have a similar exemption available to you? Such provisions are often rather obscure and little-known (but well worth tracking down).
P.S. to LowNSlow: if you'll be getting oil all over your flight suit, perhaps you might as well save money and buy a cheap cotton one rather than paying extra for Nomex ... the oil would tend to make fire resistancy a rather moot point, wouldn't it?
I have no idea what the position is in the UK, but here (1) Halon is banned due to environmental concerns; however, (2) there is an exemption for aviation use, so Halon remains quite legal for cockpit extinguishers, fitted engine compartment systems, etc.
Perhaps you have a similar exemption available to you? Such provisions are often rather obscure and little-known (but well worth tracking down).
P.S. to LowNSlow: if you'll be getting oil all over your flight suit, perhaps you might as well save money and buy a cheap cotton one rather than paying extra for Nomex ... the oil would tend to make fire resistancy a rather moot point, wouldn't it?
MLS you have a very good point there It's not copious amounts of the black stuff, it's just general grimey bits but I suppose it all builds up to a flammable patch in the end.
It's not copious amounts of the black stuff, it's just general grimey bits but I suppose it all builds up to a flammable patch in the end.
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I'm no expert, but I believe that Nomex garments should be kept reasonably clean (especially of flammable substances) if their fire resistancy is to be effective.
Perhaps you could try keeping a set of cheap coveralls in the hangar for pre-flighting, post-flight cleaning, etc., and wear a Nomex flight suit only for flying (hopefully there isn't too much oil spraying around in mid-flight). Just a thought.
Perhaps you could try keeping a set of cheap coveralls in the hangar for pre-flighting, post-flight cleaning, etc., and wear a Nomex flight suit only for flying (hopefully there isn't too much oil spraying around in mid-flight). Just a thought.
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What is really anoying to me is that most pilot shops sell
'The original airforce issue M-etc flying jacket, made out of 100% nylon'
Not every pilot knows about Nomex.
Amsafe is selling a kind of airbag seatbelt. They are now standard on Cirrus aircraft
Because most times smoke will kill you before the flames, I always carry a smoke-hood.
S.
'The original airforce issue M-etc flying jacket, made out of 100% nylon'
Not every pilot knows about Nomex.
Amsafe is selling a kind of airbag seatbelt. They are now standard on Cirrus aircraft
Because most times smoke will kill you before the flames, I always carry a smoke-hood.
S.
MLS good point. I've got some of my old offshore ovies in the garage, maybe I'll transfer a pair to the hangar but not the bright orange North Sea ones! Hang on, THEY are Nomex! Unfortunately they are also liberally splashed with paint after the last decorating session!
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For suits 2 of us at my club have just bought suits from here...
http://www.elmers.co.uk/aviation/
Definitely better than the RAF issue ones, decent size map pocket 60x40nm on a 1/2mil. nice padding where the straps normally cut in...
http://www.elmers.co.uk/aviation/
Definitely better than the RAF issue ones, decent size map pocket 60x40nm on a 1/2mil. nice padding where the straps normally cut in...
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I think you'll be happy with those suits. Provided that the correct laundering instructions (which are essentially the same as for Nomex clothing) are followed, Proban fire resistancy treatment is guaranteed to hold up for a minimum of 50 wash cycles: which should be plenty for most applications. And IIRC, Proban is actually superior to Nomex in some other respects.
P.S. Anyone who thinks that the prospect of burns following aircraft crashes is 'no big deal' should read Gary Pomerantz, Nine Minutes, Twenty Seconds: The Tragedy & Triumph of ASA Flight 529 (2001).
P.S. Anyone who thinks that the prospect of burns following aircraft crashes is 'no big deal' should read Gary Pomerantz, Nine Minutes, Twenty Seconds: The Tragedy & Triumph of ASA Flight 529 (2001).
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I wear jeans and t-shirts + fleece if cold .Baseball hat if sunny ( back to front if in open cockpit )
I wear the same if driving a car which is far riskier. Just look at all the car accidents daily yet we dont wear race suits and helmets.
Just think of a barely trained nutter driving towards you at closing speeds of 150 mph and passing within inches !!!!
take reasonable precautions by all means but I think military type overalls are great for posing..::
I wear the same if driving a car which is far riskier. Just look at all the car accidents daily yet we dont wear race suits and helmets.
Just think of a barely trained nutter driving towards you at closing speeds of 150 mph and passing within inches !!!!
take reasonable precautions by all means but I think military type overalls are great for posing..
::
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I wear jeans and t-shirts + fleece if cold
I wear the same if driving a car which is far riskier. Just look at all the car accidents daily yet we dont wear race suits and helmets.
However, least anyone else be misled, I have to point out that the chances of a serious accident in a light aircraft are significantly greater than the chance of a motor vehicle accident (all the statistics to the contrary are for airline traffic, which is another kettle of fish entirely). Additionally, the chances of being burned in a post-crash fire are substantially greater in an airplane than in a car (compare the number of exit points between, e.g., a Ford sedan and a Piper Warrior).
who owns the Piper Arrow at Cambridge in the colours of the 'red arrows'.....now that is sad!!
Last edited by MLS-12D; 5th Aug 2005 at 20:48.
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Young skywalker - the only girl I want to impress is my 2-year-old daughter, and I'll probably do that best by taking reasonable steps to look after us all. Jedi Master the aluminium persuader is. Hope Old Skywalker you eventually become!
MLS - quite right!
MLS - quite right!
Oh no, sorry! I didnt mean it to sound the way it did, I think flying suits are a great idea, i just meant no good for posing...oh never mind! 
P.S this is like text messaging, it can get you into all sorts of bother!
P.S this is like text messaging, it can get you into all sorts of bother!
Last edited by youngskywalker; 6th Aug 2005 at 16:13.