One for the instructors
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One for the instructors
Flying recently with a PPL friend I realised that his skill level was less than he thought it was.
He is an experienced and confident pilot, but the execution is sloppy and, at times, almost dangerous.
How do you go about telling a pilot they need some dual time, when they don't or won't do so.
I can, of course, not fly with him, but I enjoy the rides (normally), so would be interested in any ideas as to how to get the message across, that, perhpas, his confidence isn't justified.
He is an experienced and confident pilot, but the execution is sloppy and, at times, almost dangerous.
How do you go about telling a pilot they need some dual time, when they don't or won't do so.
I can, of course, not fly with him, but I enjoy the rides (normally), so would be interested in any ideas as to how to get the message across, that, perhpas, his confidence isn't justified.
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If you are flying out of a club perhaps a quiet word with the CFI would be a good idea. Sooner or later your friend will need his "hour with an instructor" to keep his class rating. Forewarned the CFI will have enough experience to deal with this. Meantime if you think your friend is not safe keep well clear!
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Thanks Captain.
Unfortunately he no longer flies with a club since having joined a syndicate and the bad habits are beginning to show.
Unfortunately he no longer flies with a club since having joined a syndicate and the bad habits are beginning to show.
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Robin,
If you have another friend who is a good pilot that believes in taking proficiency training, or if you know someone who is an instructor pilot, try getting the three (or more) of you together for lunch somewhere or at a Pub, where the topic will naturally flow to flying. Bring up the topic of proficiency training and as a non pilot start asking questions that you think are pertinent about training and flying (pursue it on the premise that you are interested in learning how to become a safe and knowledgeable pilot. With luck your friend will realize that it would not be a bad idea if he took some proficiency lessons from a certified instructor.
If this doesn't work, even though I throughly love to fly, I would politely decline to go flying with your friend.
Think about this way, the life you save may be your own, or it is far better to read about statistics than to become one.
Mike
If you have another friend who is a good pilot that believes in taking proficiency training, or if you know someone who is an instructor pilot, try getting the three (or more) of you together for lunch somewhere or at a Pub, where the topic will naturally flow to flying. Bring up the topic of proficiency training and as a non pilot start asking questions that you think are pertinent about training and flying (pursue it on the premise that you are interested in learning how to become a safe and knowledgeable pilot. With luck your friend will realize that it would not be a bad idea if he took some proficiency lessons from a certified instructor.
If this doesn't work, even though I throughly love to fly, I would politely decline to go flying with your friend.
Think about this way, the life you save may be your own, or it is far better to read about statistics than to become one.
Mike
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It would be interesting to know what specific “criticisms” you have of your friend as this would provide and insight into how to address the problem and also the extent of your own experience.
Whilst not an instructor I have had a lot of enjoyment doing check outs with pilots. Experience has taught me that your own “criticism” of other pilots develops with the time you spend flying with others and with your own level of experience. For example with just a few hundred hours to my credit I recall flying with a pilot and thinking the fellow was a complete mad man. With hindsight he did nothing dangerous and in fact was far more comfortable with the aircraft than I. I am not suggesting you have insufficient experience to make the assessment you have reached, just enquiring into the basis on which you have made that assessment.
Of course any pilot should welcome criticism - it need not come from an instructor. It would be as well to raise some of your “concerns” with your friend and see what reaction and explanation you receive. The simple truth is that if our friend is not prepared to listen to your views (whether he has more or less experience than you) he should not be flying. If you really do need to contrive the situation you might each do a short leg - go first and suggest to your friend that if he sees you do anything with which he is uncomfortable then please let you know and you will return the favour on the return leg.
Whatever you do your friend deserves more than simply refusing to fly with him if you really feel he is a danger to himself and to others.
Do you know when your friend last had his biannual check ride?
Whilst not an instructor I have had a lot of enjoyment doing check outs with pilots. Experience has taught me that your own “criticism” of other pilots develops with the time you spend flying with others and with your own level of experience. For example with just a few hundred hours to my credit I recall flying with a pilot and thinking the fellow was a complete mad man. With hindsight he did nothing dangerous and in fact was far more comfortable with the aircraft than I. I am not suggesting you have insufficient experience to make the assessment you have reached, just enquiring into the basis on which you have made that assessment.
Of course any pilot should welcome criticism - it need not come from an instructor. It would be as well to raise some of your “concerns” with your friend and see what reaction and explanation you receive. The simple truth is that if our friend is not prepared to listen to your views (whether he has more or less experience than you) he should not be flying. If you really do need to contrive the situation you might each do a short leg - go first and suggest to your friend that if he sees you do anything with which he is uncomfortable then please let you know and you will return the favour on the return leg.
Whatever you do your friend deserves more than simply refusing to fly with him if you really feel he is a danger to himself and to others.
Do you know when your friend last had his biannual check ride?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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A couple of years ago, I went flying in the Europa which I owned a share of, with another share-holder. For a few weeks prior to the flight, I'd had a few bouncy landings, but I just put this down to the Europa's unpredictable ground-handling characteristics.
The other guy flew the first leg, without incident. I flew the second leg, and again had a bouncy landing, but nothing that I couldn't easilly control. In the bar, over a beer, the other pilot happened to mention to me that "it's interesting, you don't seem to hold off as long as me on the landing", and he then changed the subject. I didn't think too much more about it.....
Then, the next week, I went flying again, and as I came in to land I again had a bouncy landing. But something from the conversation in the bar the previous week must have stuck in my mind, because as the aircraft bounced, I thought "I didn't hold off for as long as I could have done." I did a couple of circuits, making sure that I really did hold off for as long as possible, and all my landings were as smooth as they come.
To this day, I don't know if the other pilot's comment was just an off-the-cuff remark, or if he was actually trying to make a point in a subtle way, but if it's the latter, it worked.
FFF
---------------
The other guy flew the first leg, without incident. I flew the second leg, and again had a bouncy landing, but nothing that I couldn't easilly control. In the bar, over a beer, the other pilot happened to mention to me that "it's interesting, you don't seem to hold off as long as me on the landing", and he then changed the subject. I didn't think too much more about it.....
Then, the next week, I went flying again, and as I came in to land I again had a bouncy landing. But something from the conversation in the bar the previous week must have stuck in my mind, because as the aircraft bounced, I thought "I didn't hold off for as long as I could have done." I did a couple of circuits, making sure that I really did hold off for as long as possible, and all my landings were as smooth as they come.
To this day, I don't know if the other pilot's comment was just an off-the-cuff remark, or if he was actually trying to make a point in a subtle way, but if it's the latter, it worked.
FFF
---------------
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That article is definitely food for thought.
I disagree on one thing though. I think EVERYONE has that responsibility. If you think another pilot flies dangerously, you should say so. You can add that maybe you're wrong, that you don't have the experience, perhaps. But just say honestly how you feel. If he /she scared you, say so. Don't be confrontational, just be honest. Don't accuse the pilot of anything, just say you're wondering what was going on, maybe it's you who doesn't understand or know enough, but it worried/upset you enough that you wanted to discuss it. That way, it shouldn't be a big deal. And it might save someone's life.
I disagree on one thing though. I think EVERYONE has that responsibility. If you think another pilot flies dangerously, you should say so. You can add that maybe you're wrong, that you don't have the experience, perhaps. But just say honestly how you feel. If he /she scared you, say so. Don't be confrontational, just be honest. Don't accuse the pilot of anything, just say you're wondering what was going on, maybe it's you who doesn't understand or know enough, but it worried/upset you enough that you wanted to discuss it. That way, it shouldn't be a big deal. And it might save someone's life.
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Dear all
Thanks for the help - esp that web-page. That really was a shocker, as some of the statements were a bit close to home.
No doubts - I'll have to say something a lot clearer next time I go for a ride with him
Thanks for the help - esp that web-page. That really was a shocker, as some of the statements were a bit close to home.
No doubts - I'll have to say something a lot clearer next time I go for a ride with him
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That web article was very sobering.
On the other side of the coin I have always been pleasantly surprised by the high standards most pilots set themselves and fly to. If they ever do make the odd error you can simply say at the end of the trip 'What did you think of that' and they reel off all of the things they could have done better.
I only ever came across one pilot who appeared too confident. I did not have the occasion to fly with him and I'm not sure I would want to from the two minutes I spent with him. No-one else at the club seemed too keen to get in the cockpit with him either. Perhaps now the the mandatory hour with an instructor every two years has appeared he may have reeled his horns in. At least its one good thing to come out of JAR.
If you are going to attempt to feedback on someones flying (or anything for that matter) make sure you use calm facts that people can't disagree with and can learn from rather than vague emotion. If you can't analyse flying accurately encourage him to see an instructor.
On the other side of the coin I have always been pleasantly surprised by the high standards most pilots set themselves and fly to. If they ever do make the odd error you can simply say at the end of the trip 'What did you think of that' and they reel off all of the things they could have done better.
I only ever came across one pilot who appeared too confident. I did not have the occasion to fly with him and I'm not sure I would want to from the two minutes I spent with him. No-one else at the club seemed too keen to get in the cockpit with him either. Perhaps now the the mandatory hour with an instructor every two years has appeared he may have reeled his horns in. At least its one good thing to come out of JAR.
If you are going to attempt to feedback on someones flying (or anything for that matter) make sure you use calm facts that people can't disagree with and can learn from rather than vague emotion. If you can't analyse flying accurately encourage him to see an instructor.
Last edited by 18greens; 25th Jul 2005 at 21:26.
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An excellent topic.
A friend and I fly together frequently and have a couple of standing rules.
1. If either of us asks for control the other relinquishes the controls immediately.
2. We are not shy about mentioning items the other could improve upon. It's an opportunity for us to improve our skills.
You might not mention it to him, but really I'm the better pilot. Even though he has more ratings and is more proficient than me. I just tell him he's better to keep his ego inflated.
A friend and I fly together frequently and have a couple of standing rules.
1. If either of us asks for control the other relinquishes the controls immediately.
2. We are not shy about mentioning items the other could improve upon. It's an opportunity for us to improve our skills.
You might not mention it to him, but really I'm the better pilot. Even though he has more ratings and is more proficient than me. I just tell him he's better to keep his ego inflated.
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Gerhardt,
I do the same thing with a couple of people I fly with. In fact, I won't fly regularly with anyone unless we can have that sort of relationship.
I have a friend I regularly go on long trips with. We have a couple of rules...
1) If either of us feels something should be pointed out, we'll say it.
2) If decisions have to be made concerning weather etc, we won't fly unless we're both happy about it.
This person is an instructor with way, way more experience than I've got. If she can think that way, maybe everyone else should consider it.
I do the same thing with a couple of people I fly with. In fact, I won't fly regularly with anyone unless we can have that sort of relationship.
I have a friend I regularly go on long trips with. We have a couple of rules...
1) If either of us feels something should be pointed out, we'll say it.
2) If decisions have to be made concerning weather etc, we won't fly unless we're both happy about it.
This person is an instructor with way, way more experience than I've got. If she can think that way, maybe everyone else should consider it.
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wowser. i would not dally around I would just come out and say what I thought, especially if it could put my life at risk. I have done so on a number of occassions.
Could be why I can throw a party for all my friends in a phone box looking at it in hindsight.....
Could be why I can throw a party for all my friends in a phone box looking at it in hindsight.....
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It happens to almost every amateur pilot. Professional pilots too, if they are not subject to regular checkrides.
In 1983, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University conducted a study designed to (1) measure the skill retention levels of newly licensed pilots and (2) determine how accurately these pilots were able to predict their own level of personal proficiency. I can't find a link to the study results, but they are summarized in Richard Taylor, Pilot Profinciency (1991), at pages 8-12.
The study revealed that general aviation pilots suffer a significant loss of cognitive skills (i.e., pilot judgement and decision-making ability) and flight skills within a short period of time following the completion of structured flight training. The areas of flight skill loss most affected included takeoffs and landings, stall recognition and recovery, minimum controllable airspeed, and emergency procedures. Pilots' ability to predict and evaluate their own skill retention levels for specific flight tasks was found to be negligible.
Obviously I know nothing about your friend, but: why do you assume that he will be unreceptive to your feedback? PResumably he is not entirely unreasonable (given that you consider him worthy of your friendship), and obviously he has a vested interest in increasing, or at least maintaining, his proficiency.
Personally, I only fly in club settings. I find that the atmosphere of mutual support and constructive criticism helps keep me safe. I undergo regular checkrides and, when not 100% up to par (yes it happens, especially after a long winter of no flying, etc.), I don't mind suggestions that one or two dual training sessions might be appropriate.
A lot depends upon how tactful one is. "You know, I noticed that your speed control during the landings was a bit rough. Why don't you book an hour with Charlie next week? A few circuits with him would do wonders" is more likely to be well-received than "You're bloody dangerous! You should be grounded!".
In 1983, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University conducted a study designed to (1) measure the skill retention levels of newly licensed pilots and (2) determine how accurately these pilots were able to predict their own level of personal proficiency. I can't find a link to the study results, but they are summarized in Richard Taylor, Pilot Profinciency (1991), at pages 8-12.
The study revealed that general aviation pilots suffer a significant loss of cognitive skills (i.e., pilot judgement and decision-making ability) and flight skills within a short period of time following the completion of structured flight training. The areas of flight skill loss most affected included takeoffs and landings, stall recognition and recovery, minimum controllable airspeed, and emergency procedures. Pilots' ability to predict and evaluate their own skill retention levels for specific flight tasks was found to be negligible.
How do you go about telling a pilot they need some dual time, when they don't or won't do so.
Personally, I only fly in club settings. I find that the atmosphere of mutual support and constructive criticism helps keep me safe. I undergo regular checkrides and, when not 100% up to par (yes it happens, especially after a long winter of no flying, etc.), I don't mind suggestions that one or two dual training sessions might be appropriate.
A lot depends upon how tactful one is. "You know, I noticed that your speed control during the landings was a bit rough. Why don't you book an hour with Charlie next week? A few circuits with him would do wonders" is more likely to be well-received than "You're bloody dangerous! You should be grounded!".
Holy cow
Well well well this is all very close to home.
I have just this week grounded one of my students, a bit further into his thirties than I am, for being a f
ing idiot in our club aircraft.
A Skyfox is not built to do stall turns and derry turns with any pilot at the controls, least of all a know-it-all rich boy from The Land with his 40 hours.
However, landing it on a polo field while a polo game is in progress watched by 150 people is possibly the most reckless thing I have ever heard of in an aircraft.
What are the guidelines for an instructor faced with this kind of student? I wonder if his 6-month grounding will make any impact (given that he admits his actions but he will not admit that his actions were wrong).
"I learn better by myself - always been that way"
"It might be illegal but what if I was caught in a mountain wave? I would need to know what to do!"
"I know what I'm doing"
"If a Gazelle can't stand up to that then it should never have flown in the first place!"
"... oh well basically I was bored flying the Gazelle anyway..."
Frankly his conduct is an offence against the Civil Aviation Regulations - a six-month grounding is only the thin edge of the wedge considering we could have his certificate pulled and go on to push criminal procedings with CASA.
Yet, like Mr Durden, my wife and I have probably lost a friend and tonight that weighs heavily on my mind.
I have just this week grounded one of my students, a bit further into his thirties than I am, for being a f
ing idiot in our club aircraft.A Skyfox is not built to do stall turns and derry turns with any pilot at the controls, least of all a know-it-all rich boy from The Land with his 40 hours.
However, landing it on a polo field while a polo game is in progress watched by 150 people is possibly the most reckless thing I have ever heard of in an aircraft.
What are the guidelines for an instructor faced with this kind of student? I wonder if his 6-month grounding will make any impact (given that he admits his actions but he will not admit that his actions were wrong).
"I learn better by myself - always been that way"
"It might be illegal but what if I was caught in a mountain wave? I would need to know what to do!"
"I know what I'm doing"
"If a Gazelle can't stand up to that then it should never have flown in the first place!"
"... oh well basically I was bored flying the Gazelle anyway..."
Frankly his conduct is an offence against the Civil Aviation Regulations - a six-month grounding is only the thin edge of the wedge considering we could have his certificate pulled and go on to push criminal procedings with CASA.
Yet, like Mr Durden, my wife and I have probably lost a friend and tonight that weighs heavily on my mind.
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MLS-12D
Just to update you - I did as most of the posters have suggested. Tried to be supportive and made indirect suggestions but he won't take the hint. He is legimitately flying solo and remains current according to club rules, so we have 18 months before his next flight with an instructor.
It's been a real eye-opener to me that someone, I thought was a good and safe pilot, is simply unable to see when things are going wrong.
It does make me realise that the implementation of the 2 year requirement to fly with an instructor has great merit. I didn't think so before.
Just to update you - I did as most of the posters have suggested. Tried to be supportive and made indirect suggestions but he won't take the hint. He is legimitately flying solo and remains current according to club rules, so we have 18 months before his next flight with an instructor.
It's been a real eye-opener to me that someone, I thought was a good and safe pilot, is simply unable to see when things are going wrong.
It does make me realise that the implementation of the 2 year requirement to fly with an instructor has great merit. I didn't think so before.
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The civil world does worry me with lack of check rides and lack of standardisation. It worries me when I hear fellow club members saying things like:
"I have my annual check next week. I'm a bit nervous, at my age I don't like having my flying ability put under scrutiny. I would much rather be left to get on with it."
I get scared flying in civvy world and I'm not afraid to admit it. Mainly due to the egos of people who think they are skygods when clearly they are not and those that will insist on flying with the eyes in chatting to whoever, looking at the map or the instruments and not looking out.
Something I have learned in life (not through flying):
However good you think you are at something, those with more experience are generally going to be correct.
If I am flying with someone, I have no qualms about taking control and telling them what I think. It's my life in that cockpit as well!
"I have my annual check next week. I'm a bit nervous, at my age I don't like having my flying ability put under scrutiny. I would much rather be left to get on with it."
I get scared flying in civvy world and I'm not afraid to admit it. Mainly due to the egos of people who think they are skygods when clearly they are not and those that will insist on flying with the eyes in chatting to whoever, looking at the map or the instruments and not looking out.
Something I have learned in life (not through flying):
However good you think you are at something, those with more experience are generally going to be correct.
If I am flying with someone, I have no qualms about taking control and telling them what I think. It's my life in that cockpit as well!
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If I am flying with someone, I have no qualms about taking control and telling them what I think. It's my life in that cockpit as well!
SS
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I'd had a few bouncy landings, but I just put this down to the Europa's unpredictable ground-handling characteristics.