time between checking notam's and vfr flight.
Boomerangben
"If your departure aerodrome has a FIS or ATC service, they will be able to tell you about any pop up NOTAMs."
Don't bet on it! If it is local to the aerodrome/ATZ that you are departing, probably "yes". If it relates to somewhere en-route, most probably "no".
A busy FISO or controller is probably working unaided with possibly multiple aircraft in the circuit. He or she will therefore be concentrating on their primary function, ie the safety of aircraft that they have in contact on the ground and within the ATZ, without having time to attempt to provide an en-route FIS. The latter responsibility is delegated by CAA to NATS, ie "London Information". Best of luck with them on a busy weekend!
Not easy is it?
"If your departure aerodrome has a FIS or ATC service, they will be able to tell you about any pop up NOTAMs."
Don't bet on it! If it is local to the aerodrome/ATZ that you are departing, probably "yes". If it relates to somewhere en-route, most probably "no".
A busy FISO or controller is probably working unaided with possibly multiple aircraft in the circuit. He or she will therefore be concentrating on their primary function, ie the safety of aircraft that they have in contact on the ground and within the ATZ, without having time to attempt to provide an en-route FIS. The latter responsibility is delegated by CAA to NATS, ie "London Information". Best of luck with them on a busy weekend!
Not easy is it?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worth mentioning that an ATCO has NO obligation to inform the pilot that he is where he should not be.
While UK controllers are usually professional and will normally volunteer information like that, they can do it only if they know where the pilot is. This is unlikely to be so unless they have radar, or unless there is a huge prohibited area which "everybody" knows about e.g. an airshow.
So don't expect London Info to tell you about something - unless you have told them you are above Eastbourne in which case they will probably tell you that you have just flown through the Red Arrows
Outside the UK, all bets are off. ATC can be dead casual, they can ignore you, or they can be actually asleep. Or (especially if French) they can watch you on radar, busting some TRA for which there is a massive fine, start filling in the forms there and then but they still won't tell you what you have done. 6 months later you get a letter from the CAA wishing to prosecute on behalf of the DGAC.
So I am afraid that mobile internet access IS essential if doing serious flying. Not just for Notams of course (which done the day before will be fine 99% of the time) but for weather (which done the day before is unlikely to be any good )
The world is moving on. This is the 21st century now. One can file flight plans via the internet too (homebriefing.com, and others). One can send the three often-mandatory faxes (immigration, special branch, customs) out of a laptop with GSM, with minimal hassle. Flight planning should be done electronically anyway - circular slide rules are for masochists. The whole preflight process can now be done in a simple fashion, no matter where you are.
While all this will be alien to many occassional flyers, the reality is that they have the same privileges as the rest of us, they share the same complicated airspace, and IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.
While UK controllers are usually professional and will normally volunteer information like that, they can do it only if they know where the pilot is. This is unlikely to be so unless they have radar, or unless there is a huge prohibited area which "everybody" knows about e.g. an airshow.
So don't expect London Info to tell you about something - unless you have told them you are above Eastbourne in which case they will probably tell you that you have just flown through the Red Arrows
Outside the UK, all bets are off. ATC can be dead casual, they can ignore you, or they can be actually asleep. Or (especially if French) they can watch you on radar, busting some TRA for which there is a massive fine, start filling in the forms there and then but they still won't tell you what you have done. 6 months later you get a letter from the CAA wishing to prosecute on behalf of the DGAC.
So I am afraid that mobile internet access IS essential if doing serious flying. Not just for Notams of course (which done the day before will be fine 99% of the time) but for weather (which done the day before is unlikely to be any good
)The world is moving on. This is the 21st century now. One can file flight plans via the internet too (homebriefing.com, and others). One can send the three often-mandatory faxes (immigration, special branch, customs) out of a laptop with GSM, with minimal hassle. Flight planning should be done electronically anyway - circular slide rules are for masochists. The whole preflight process can now be done in a simple fashion, no matter where you are.
While all this will be alien to many occassional flyers, the reality is that they have the same privileges as the rest of us, they share the same complicated airspace, and IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: wakefield
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So I am afraid that mobile internet access IS essential if doing serious flying.
Flight planning should be done electronically anyway - circular slide rules are for masochists.
IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.
Goodness me, how rude!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO,
In my experience FISOs and ATCOs are pretty good at alerting pilots to TRAs/TDAs.
As for berating the cirular slide rules - shame on you. Excellent bits of kit. By the time I have switched on the old PSION and programmed in the route, the Dalton has the answer.
Having a laptop would be the Rolls Royce solution to flight planning, but having one is not essential for serious flying. We manage some pretty serious flying without one.
In my experience FISOs and ATCOs are pretty good at alerting pilots to TRAs/TDAs.
As for berating the cirular slide rules - shame on you. Excellent bits of kit. By the time I have switched on the old PSION and programmed in the route, the Dalton has the answer.
Having a laptop would be the Rolls Royce solution to flight planning, but having one is not essential for serious flying. We manage some pretty serious flying without one.
Last edited by boomerangben; 27th Jul 2005 at 08:33.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: wherever I lay my headset
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
boomerangben
don't get distracted by the pseudo-personal attacks... yes a UK ATCO will probably advise you of pop-up TRAs etc and relevant NOTAMs... but it does depend on them knowing where you are i.e. probably in receipt of a radar service. But even then such notification will be a low priority.
FISOs probably don't have the benefit of radar, so notification will depend on your position reports and their local knowledge... the further you are away from the airfield that is likely to diminish.
As for serious flying... glad you can carry that out (and why not), but if you are serious about flying you I assume you would want to/do approach the whole business in a professional manner... which might include using the best tools available for the job?
don't get distracted by the pseudo-personal attacks... yes a UK ATCO will probably advise you of pop-up TRAs etc and relevant NOTAMs... but it does depend on them knowing where you are i.e. probably in receipt of a radar service. But even then such notification will be a low priority.
FISOs probably don't have the benefit of radar, so notification will depend on your position reports and their local knowledge... the further you are away from the airfield that is likely to diminish.
As for serious flying... glad you can carry that out (and why not), but if you are serious about flying you I assume you would want to/do approach the whole business in a professional manner... which might include using the best tools available for the job?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540,
.....IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.
Agree totally with that piece.
I think that Mike Cross and UK AIS should have a serious look at what is available out there and the link you provided is one of the better ones.
However, when claiming that every pilot should have the best equipment and mobile internet access you are slightly missing the point.
Airfields are required to provide certain services. Pilots are required to ensure that before making use of an airfield that the services available meet their requirements. Licensed airfields will detail the available services in the AIP and unlicensed ones will provide that info via the owner/manager who provides the prior permission.
Pilots will not fly to an airfield without refueling facilities unless they have made alternative arrangements for fuel. They should not also fly to airfields with no met or notam briefing services unless they have made appropriate arrangements.
In your case you make your own arrangements for others this could be a phone call to AIS or to their Club or Company base or whatever.
While met info is available free on the internet, the met office is unwilling to let people ring up for essential met information without being charged a premium. Why?.........I believe that it is to prevent those that can be bothered checking the internet simply ringing up - and thus we are back to the good old PPL shooting themselves in the foot.
Too many PPL simply can't be bothered with anything other then flying i.e. they don't read the AIP or NOTAM and only check the basic weather........and it is our collective fault for letting the situation continue.......to many blind eyes being turned at poor airmanship and too many instructors unwilling to insist of proper standards from all pilots.
Regards,
DFC
.....IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.
Agree totally with that piece.
I think that Mike Cross and UK AIS should have a serious look at what is available out there and the link you provided is one of the better ones.
However, when claiming that every pilot should have the best equipment and mobile internet access you are slightly missing the point.
Airfields are required to provide certain services. Pilots are required to ensure that before making use of an airfield that the services available meet their requirements. Licensed airfields will detail the available services in the AIP and unlicensed ones will provide that info via the owner/manager who provides the prior permission.
Pilots will not fly to an airfield without refueling facilities unless they have made alternative arrangements for fuel. They should not also fly to airfields with no met or notam briefing services unless they have made appropriate arrangements.
In your case you make your own arrangements for others this could be a phone call to AIS or to their Club or Company base or whatever.
While met info is available free on the internet, the met office is unwilling to let people ring up for essential met information without being charged a premium. Why?.........I believe that it is to prevent those that can be bothered checking the internet simply ringing up - and thus we are back to the good old PPL shooting themselves in the foot.
Too many PPL simply can't be bothered with anything other then flying i.e. they don't read the AIP or NOTAM and only check the basic weather........and it is our collective fault for letting the situation continue.......to many blind eyes being turned at poor airmanship and too many instructors unwilling to insist of proper standards from all pilots.
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FWIW the ATCO's and particularly the FISO's at Swanwick have been having a problem with the sheer voume of NOTAM info. While a Narrow Route Brief on the AIS site brings it down to a reasonable quantity if you are expected to carry a mental picture of the entire FIR's activities it's more of a problem. For this reason NATS/AIS has provided some additional briefs here. These are for Danger Areas and Nav Warnings to make it easier for them to update their State Boards.
Art 43 is quite clear that it is the commander's responsibility so you should not rely on ATSU's to tell you things.
If push comes to shove the test is one of reasonableness. If you brief before going to the airfield then a court would probably feel that you acted reaonably. If you briefed on Friday for a flight on Saturday afternoon they might not. If you infringed something that was not in your brief (e.g. an emergency TRA that popped up after you had briefed) you would IMHO have a good defence.
Mike
Art 43 is quite clear that it is the commander's responsibility so you should not rely on ATSU's to tell you things.
If push comes to shove the test is one of reasonableness. If you brief before going to the airfield then a court would probably feel that you acted reaonably. If you briefed on Friday for a flight on Saturday afternoon they might not. If you infringed something that was not in your brief (e.g. an emergency TRA that popped up after you had briefed) you would IMHO have a good defence.
Mike
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on boys and girlz. I know my writing style on here is usually pretty forthright but how can a reasonable man (or a girl) get offended by what I wrote? One could be constructive and pick it apart piece by piece ... but this?
Where does it say that an airfield is required to provide internet access (so the pilot can get a narrow route briefing, or get weather data beyond the standard F215 etc)?
Also, getting the info at an airfield is of no use if one has just fallen out of bed in the B&B and wants to know if the weather is any good for the next leg of the journey. Having to go to the airfield to get weather or notams (but especially weather) is next to useless, except for occassional pilots who pop up on nice days only. The "system" appears to work but only because most people don't go anywhere, and those that do have either got it sorted (and don't hang about on here) or they are retired people with loads of time.
MikeC - this is all very good stuff; the problem is that it all falls apart when going abroad. One needs a much greater degree of independence then and this is what my earlier comments were partly aimed at.
The UK isn't all that hard; if one really wants to, one can be talking to somebody all the time and one can create work by offering waypoints and ETAs to each waypoint (the sort of thing PPL students do with London Info) and then one has a fair chance of being told of something. It's abroad that one really has to be very sure of things.
And it so happens that the best flight planning tools all run on a PC. So why not just do it properly? One can pick up a laptop with a GPRS card, on Ebay, for the cost of a full tank of avgas. Navbox Pro, and most will never look back.
Ultimately one has to blame the standard of PPL training, which prepares pilots for simple flying, on perfect days, from their home airfield to some nearby place where they sell burgers. But one can't expect a flying school to do anything about this - their #1 job is to take £5k-£10k from every person who walks through the door and nobody can reasonably expect them to do otherwise. If anyone in the UK is in a position to be pro-active in improving things, it is the CAA. They won't do it - modernisation is an alien concept in the GA dept there.
Where does it say that an airfield is required to provide internet access (so the pilot can get a narrow route briefing, or get weather data beyond the standard F215 etc)?
Also, getting the info at an airfield is of no use if one has just fallen out of bed in the B&B and wants to know if the weather is any good for the next leg of the journey. Having to go to the airfield to get weather or notams (but especially weather) is next to useless, except for occassional pilots who pop up on nice days only. The "system" appears to work but only because most people don't go anywhere, and those that do have either got it sorted (and don't hang about on here) or they are retired people with loads of time.
MikeC - this is all very good stuff; the problem is that it all falls apart when going abroad. One needs a much greater degree of independence then and this is what my earlier comments were partly aimed at.
The UK isn't all that hard; if one really wants to, one can be talking to somebody all the time and one can create work by offering waypoints and ETAs to each waypoint (the sort of thing PPL students do with London Info) and then one has a fair chance of being told of something. It's abroad that one really has to be very sure of things.
And it so happens that the best flight planning tools all run on a PC. So why not just do it properly? One can pick up a laptop with a GPRS card, on Ebay, for the cost of a full tank of avgas. Navbox Pro, and most will never look back.
Ultimately one has to blame the standard of PPL training, which prepares pilots for simple flying, on perfect days, from their home airfield to some nearby place where they sell burgers. But one can't expect a flying school to do anything about this - their #1 job is to take £5k-£10k from every person who walks through the door and nobody can reasonably expect them to do otherwise. If anyone in the UK is in a position to be pro-active in improving things, it is the CAA. They won't do it - modernisation is an alien concept in the GA dept there.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WRT briefing while abroad, the AIS of the State within whose airspace the flight originates is in theory the correct place to go. For example French Class D NOTAM do not get distributed outside the Schengen States, so you won't pick them up from UK AIS.
More and more AIS are using the Internet to provide their service. You'll find most of them here.
Echo IO540's comments. ProPlan for planning and the Internet for Wx and NOTAM is by far the easiest. However I carry the whizzwheel and am quite happy to use it when necessary.
Mike
More and more AIS are using the Internet to provide their service. You'll find most of them here.
Echo IO540's comments. ProPlan for planning and the Internet for Wx and NOTAM is by far the easiest. However I carry the whizzwheel and am quite happy to use it when necessary.
Mike
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just come back from 8 days touring France. Between Internet access for a few Euro at the hotel, and Olivia, which is now available at most French aerodromes, there was no need to waste valuable baggage weight carrying a portable. I use Navbox at home, but a typical 150 nm route in France can be planed with the rule in less time than the portable will need to boot up.
Rod1
Rod1
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MikeC - Can you elaborate about these "Class D notams"? Do you have a reference for all the classes of notams (that are relevant to pilots flying VFR or IFR in Class G-C outside the UK) which are not visible via ais.org.uk?
What mechanism within the AIS distribution system is used to ensure that certain items get distributed only to Schengen states?
Surely any info about stuff that pilots ought to know MUST be distributed. One can legally get a notam brief from ais.org.uk ONLY on a flight departing UK and with a half decent plane one could easily cross all of France and one or two other countries after that.
I am vaguely aware of the "copout" that one is supposed to use each national AIS service for a flight departing in that country but the range of a reasonable tourer makes nonsense of that since most of them could go anywhere in Europe and still depart from the UK. And that's before we got onto longer range stuff.
What mechanism within the AIS distribution system is used to ensure that certain items get distributed only to Schengen states?
Surely any info about stuff that pilots ought to know MUST be distributed. One can legally get a notam brief from ais.org.uk ONLY on a flight departing UK and with a half decent plane one could easily cross all of France and one or two other countries after that.
I am vaguely aware of the "copout" that one is supposed to use each national AIS service for a flight departing in that country but the range of a reasonable tourer makes nonsense of that since most of them could go anywhere in Europe and still depart from the UK. And that's before we got onto longer range stuff.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies, should have read Series D not Class D
From the French AIP
It's a French decision, nothing to do with the UK.
Also from the French AIP GEN 1.2-5
Ergo if you are arriving from abroad in accordance with the rules you will not require Series D. If however you are flying internally to an airport not open to International Traffic you will.
Hope this helps.
Mike
From the French AIP
3.1.3.2 THE NOTAM
a) The NOTAM series
Depending on the subject, NOTAM are issued in the following series:
Series A: Information of a general international scope and concerning more particulary long range flights (for international pubication).
Series B: Information of a limited international scope and concerning more particulary other flights (restricted international publication limited to the European region).
Series D: containing information on aerodromes used for general aviation. Publication are restricted to the countries involved within the scope of SCHENGEN agreements (Germany, Austria, Belgium,Denmark, Finland, Greece, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden, Iceland and Norway).
a) The NOTAM series
Depending on the subject, NOTAM are issued in the following series:
Series A: Information of a general international scope and concerning more particulary long range flights (for international pubication).
Series B: Information of a limited international scope and concerning more particulary other flights (restricted international publication limited to the European region).
Series D: containing information on aerodromes used for general aviation. Publication are restricted to the countries involved within the scope of SCHENGEN agreements (Germany, Austria, Belgium,Denmark, Finland, Greece, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden, Iceland and Norway).
Also from the French AIP GEN 1.2-5
Moreover, the first landing and the last take off of any non commercial flights must be made at an airport open to international traffic.
Hope this helps.
Mike
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO,
None taken, I never felt you were carrying out a "pseudo personal" attack on me as Pierre suggested.
Pierre,
I would like to think I have a professional approach to flying, but I do not believe that being professional means that you have to have the latest equipment. There might be many reasons why one cannot have the best equipment. But what does count is using what facilities you do have to the full. If those facilities still cannot provide what you need then you have to reassess what you are wanting to achieve. That IMHO is what being professional is all about.
Come on boys and girlz. I know my writing style on here is usually pretty forthright but how can a reasonable man (or a girl) get offended by what I wrote? One could be constructive and pick it apart piece by piece ... but this?
Pierre,
As for serious flying... glad you can carry that out (and why not), but if you are serious about flying you I assume you would want to/do approach the whole business in a professional manner... which might include using the best tools available for the job?
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: wherever I lay my headset
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boomerangben
I agree with you completely!!!! and i repeat its about using the best tools available to you.
But what does count is using what facilities you do have to the full. If those facilities still cannot provide what you need then you have to reassess what you are wanting to achieve. That IMHO is what being professional is all about.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ergo if you are arriving from abroad in accordance with the rules you will not require Series D. If however you are flying internally to an airport not open to International Traffic you will.
Thus the requirement to update met and notams at each stop whenever one can.
-------
I don't think that you have to use the AIS service of the country one is departing within. One simply must ensure that the briefing is complete. Operators don't pay Jeppesen jetplan and similar companies for weather and notam briefing services expecting there to be important bits left out.
However, taking the UK situation - Mike Cross stated that the number of NOTAMs are now so large that there is a problem with the guys at London info tracking what is going on.
Are we suffering from simply too many notams?
It seems to me that in the last 5 years the number of nav warnings has dramatically increased. Is the NATS desire to NOTAM everything everywhere actually decreasing safety?
Are there situations where NOTAMS are being issued but either an AIP amendment or AIC would be more appropriate.........eg that guy on the isle of wight has been flying those kites for 10 years now. Go on and give him an AIP entry!
Common NOTAMs which can be complicated (and remember NOTAMs can never have a diagram) should be issued as an AIC. A good example being the Temporary Class A airspace that springs up round Lyneham and Farnborough. There are only a couple of airspace scenarios involved which could be published with nice maps in an AIC. All that would be required then is a short NOTAM stating Farnborough tempory Class A scenario 1 active 1200.
------
IO540,
Having to go to the airfield to get weather or notams (but especially weather) is next to useless, except for occassional pilots who pop up on nice days only
I remember when we obtained a personal briefing from the forecaster and the AIS briefer before each flight. Not only that, I remember the notice required to be given depending on how long the flight sector was.
The fax briefing, telephone briefing and the internet are very recent changes for some of us who have flown quite a few miles!
Regards,
DFC
Thus the requirement to update met and notams at each stop whenever one can.
-------
I don't think that you have to use the AIS service of the country one is departing within. One simply must ensure that the briefing is complete. Operators don't pay Jeppesen jetplan and similar companies for weather and notam briefing services expecting there to be important bits left out.
However, taking the UK situation - Mike Cross stated that the number of NOTAMs are now so large that there is a problem with the guys at London info tracking what is going on.
Are we suffering from simply too many notams?
It seems to me that in the last 5 years the number of nav warnings has dramatically increased. Is the NATS desire to NOTAM everything everywhere actually decreasing safety?
Are there situations where NOTAMS are being issued but either an AIP amendment or AIC would be more appropriate.........eg that guy on the isle of wight has been flying those kites for 10 years now. Go on and give him an AIP entry!
Common NOTAMs which can be complicated (and remember NOTAMs can never have a diagram) should be issued as an AIC. A good example being the Temporary Class A airspace that springs up round Lyneham and Farnborough. There are only a couple of airspace scenarios involved which could be published with nice maps in an AIC. All that would be required then is a short NOTAM stating Farnborough tempory Class A scenario 1 active 1200.
------
IO540,
Having to go to the airfield to get weather or notams (but especially weather) is next to useless, except for occassional pilots who pop up on nice days only
I remember when we obtained a personal briefing from the forecaster and the AIS briefer before each flight. Not only that, I remember the notice required to be given depending on how long the flight sector was.
The fax briefing, telephone briefing and the internet are very recent changes for some of us who have flown quite a few miles!
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MikeC
Thanks for the clarification. I don't suppose this matters because non-international airfields are not obliged to speak English anyway, and since it makes sense to telephone any small airfield before flying there, this phone call would have to be made by a French speaker anyway and would (would it?) reveal the sort of airfield-specific info which you say would be missing from the international feed.
Technologically, what is the mechanism used to restrict specific notam items to Schengen members? I didn't know the data includes addressing information!
There are definitely far too many notams but NATS has a very long way to go to match Italy (which notamed every failed lamp-post on a recent flight I did), or the amazing notamed arguments between Greece and Turkey.
Do NATS have to do anything with the notams? Surely they just accept the data feed, strip off the bits which go only to paying customers, and provide a www gateway into it. Nobody at NATS should actually need to ever look at any of the stuff. Or are they referring to UK-generated FIR notams which need plotting, for daily ATC purposes?
Thanks for the clarification. I don't suppose this matters because non-international airfields are not obliged to speak English anyway, and since it makes sense to telephone any small airfield before flying there, this phone call would have to be made by a French speaker anyway and would (would it?) reveal the sort of airfield-specific info which you say would be missing from the international feed.
Technologically, what is the mechanism used to restrict specific notam items to Schengen members? I didn't know the data includes addressing information!
There are definitely far too many notams but NATS has a very long way to go to match Italy (which notamed every failed lamp-post on a recent flight I did), or the amazing notamed arguments between Greece and Turkey.
Do NATS have to do anything with the notams? Surely they just accept the data feed, strip off the bits which go only to paying customers, and provide a www gateway into it. Nobody at NATS should actually need to ever look at any of the stuff. Or are they referring to UK-generated FIR notams which need plotting, for daily ATC purposes?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NATS do not in the main initiate NOTAM. They are intitiated by a variety of people. NOTAM to do with facilities such as aerodromes or navaids will be initiated by the owners of those facilities. Many of the Nav Warnings and the Airspace Restrictions will be initiated by CAA/DAP, however they will frequently be doing it at the behest of those carrying out the activity, e.g. Mil, Reds, Airshow Organisers etc.
The proliferation of NOTAM is a result of the huge growth in air travel. Seemingly innocuous info is of vital importance to some. I understand that a particular Stand was once u/s at a foreign airport but the NOTAM did not appear in the brief. Unfortunately it was the only stand that could support a particular aircraft type so the a/c had to be parked on a remote apron and the passengers bussed to and from the terminal. Because the a/c was not on the main apron it could not be refuelled other than by bowser and the bowser was of small capacity, resulting in many trips and a prolonged delay, missed slots and cancelled flights later in the day and thousands of pounds of costs to the airline.
WRT foreign NOTAM, the system works like this:-
The AIS of each State will promulgate (i.e. distribute) the NOTAM for their State. Various agencies (which will include all other ICAO Notam Offices (NOF's)) will subscribe to the distribution list and receive those NOTAM series that they have subscribed to. Each NOTAM is sent in the form of a separate message on the Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network. The recieving NOF will process the incoming message stream to build its own database from which briefings will be provided to users of its service.
My understanding is that the French declined to provide Series D outside Schengen so UK AIS does not receive them. A consequence of this will be that a commercial briefing service which obtains its data solely from UK AIS will also not receive French Series D. If you want to verify what series from which countries you receive you would need to ask your information provider. From the UK AIS website Terms and Conditions which you accept on the login page:-
Mike
The proliferation of NOTAM is a result of the huge growth in air travel. Seemingly innocuous info is of vital importance to some. I understand that a particular Stand was once u/s at a foreign airport but the NOTAM did not appear in the brief. Unfortunately it was the only stand that could support a particular aircraft type so the a/c had to be parked on a remote apron and the passengers bussed to and from the terminal. Because the a/c was not on the main apron it could not be refuelled other than by bowser and the bowser was of small capacity, resulting in many trips and a prolonged delay, missed slots and cancelled flights later in the day and thousands of pounds of costs to the airline.
WRT foreign NOTAM, the system works like this:-
The AIS of each State will promulgate (i.e. distribute) the NOTAM for their State. Various agencies (which will include all other ICAO Notam Offices (NOF's)) will subscribe to the distribution list and receive those NOTAM series that they have subscribed to. Each NOTAM is sent in the form of a separate message on the Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network. The recieving NOF will process the incoming message stream to build its own database from which briefings will be provided to users of its service.
My understanding is that the French declined to provide Series D outside Schengen so UK AIS does not receive them. A consequence of this will be that a commercial briefing service which obtains its data solely from UK AIS will also not receive French Series D. If you want to verify what series from which countries you receive you would need to ask your information provider. From the UK AIS website Terms and Conditions which you accept on the login page:-
THE PRE-FLIGHT BRIEFING INFORMATION ON THE WEBSITE IS INTENDED TO SERVE FLIGHTS THAT ORIGINATE WITHIN UK AIRSPACE. UNDER ICAO CONVENTION WE ARE REQUIRED TO REMIND USERS THAT THE DATA PRESENTED DOES NOT SUPPORT FLIGHTS ORIGINATING OUTSIDE UK AIRSPACE.
Last edited by Mike Cross; 28th Jul 2005 at 10:15.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Chaps (and Chapesses), its probably a no win situation. As an aircraft commander, you are bound by the provisions of ANO Article 43, to "reasonably satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off.....that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available.....".
The only <politically incorrect expression deleted> in the woodpile would be if there has been previous higher court decision which says a reasonable time is 'X' minutes. Anybody know of such a prosecution?
MadamB
'This is not legal advice'
