flying under CBs is OK
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wide berth
Speaking to a pilot, who has now retired. He mentioned that the CBs in his part of the world (SE Asia) are generally to be given a wide berth (40 to 50 nm) as they can be very viscious. This from the relative safety of flying a B744.
Regards.
Has.
Regards.
Has.
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IM(not)HO,
Flying under, in or near to a CB (not just a big cloud) is asking for a lesson in "Darwinism in action". Tis just plain stupid to do it on purpose when an alternative option exists. Why? = reread posts above. Dem CBs am a hell of a lot stronger than yer aircraft. I've been lightning-struck in, next to and below CB, had rate of climb and descent exceed controlability levels. It ain't fun KISS stay away!
Brown underpants are unattractive you know
Flying under, in or near to a CB (not just a big cloud) is asking for a lesson in "Darwinism in action". Tis just plain stupid to do it on purpose when an alternative option exists. Why? = reread posts above. Dem CBs am a hell of a lot stronger than yer aircraft. I've been lightning-struck in, next to and below CB, had rate of climb and descent exceed controlability levels. It ain't fun KISS stay away!
Brown underpants are unattractive you know
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Depends on the options. If you get caught out by the wx and have no escape route, I'd rather go under the CB than through or (attempt) to go over. Obviously if the CB base is only 1 or 2 thousand feet you're in trouble, but if it's 10,000ft or so it's safer than flying through.
Too many variables to say you should never go under.
Too many variables to say you should never go under.
Flies for fun
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I've been down the route of embeded CB's A most unhappy experience that I wouldn't wish to repeat so won't intentionally be going there again or recommending the experience to anybody else!!!
A most unhappy experience that I wouldn't wish to repeat so won't intentionally be going there again or recommending the experience to anybody else!!!
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How many of you have flown under an overcast sky and flown through a heavy shower? Where do the showers come from? Cirrus clouds at FL250 of course!
Cirrus clouds are glaciated.
How about NS? That can get up to the 30s.
Also CB bases at 10,000? The only time I have seen that is when the mountains beneath were at 8,000.
The highestCB base I've seen was nearly 5K. Would be interested in knowing where you observed 10K baes.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Enough over the years for it to be a matter of concern.
I can't quote stats, but I have been reading the reports for 35 years and it comes up with monotonous regularity.
I can't quote stats, but I have been reading the reports for 35 years and it comes up with monotonous regularity.
Well remember the (very good) "Black Box" documentary that covered the L1011 that was downed on finals, at Atlanta IIRC, by a microburst under a CB.
In the programme, they set a 757 sim with the weather parameters of the day and asked a Training Capt to fly the approach.
The result was a smoking hole
In the programme, they set a 757 sim with the weather parameters of the day and asked a Training Capt to fly the approach.
The result was a smoking hole
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The highestCB base I've seen was nearly 5K. Would be interested in knowing where you observed 10K baes.
What scares me is embedded Cb's. On a nice jaunt around scotland we climbed on-top at about 5000' to see Cbs all around. Later we became IMC again, the radio was quiet except for the big boys deviating for weather, the storm scope was covered in little X's. We briefly popped out to see a monster in front of us, a few seconds later we were inside. It was rough, noisy (rain on the plane) and black as night. It really was an "oh sh*t are we going to get through this moment". We found a light spot and wen't for it (with what can be described as a steep turn) and luckily popped out into sunshine. 10 mins later we were on the airfield, drinking beer watching a massive storm. One of those tales you can laugh about later,. but at the time I was quite worried.
A friend of mine flies a citation in the USA and I heard the other day that even with radar they encountered turbulence so great in one of these things that they couldn't see the AI any more.....
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Englishal
Interesting.
On the subject of CBs, I was paxing on a CRJ that diverted due to Wx in VA and talking to the capt during the disembarkation, he told me that the observed tops were 52k.
That is pretty scary, considering the amount of energy it must take to get the moisture up to that level.
Interesting.
On the subject of CBs, I was paxing on a CRJ that diverted due to Wx in VA and talking to the capt during the disembarkation, he told me that the observed tops were 52k.
That is pretty scary, considering the amount of energy it must take to get the moisture up to that level.
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Useful Cbs
Despite some posts on this thread saying that ALL Cbs are best avoided, there may be exceptions - such as using the power of the monster to obtain phenomenal height gains in sailplanes.
Out of Alice Springs, (Central Australia), around 1965-1970, Bert Persson in a Blanik got to 34,000 feet or thereabouts. He'd been trained in Sweden and had there acquired the skills to know what part of the cloud, (the front), was the "UP" elevator, and what part would rip him apart. Every few thousand feet Bert popped out to have a look, then went back in for more. He said he could have gone much higher, except that his oxygen was low and the grease freezing in his controls.
To read, on the other hand, a rivetting account of the destructive power within the Cb, it's effects on the unwary, and one of the world's most incredible survival stories, go to Anne Welch's "Accidents Happen". A South American glider pilot got sucked in, passing out passing 20,000, (and risin' mumma), had six feet of both wings torn off in the ensuing terminal dive, shedding ice, and shortly after coming to, 'Jose Don't Leave Home Without Your Saint Christopher', impacted a down slope and sat there in the wreckage, a puzzled look on his face and not so much as a scratch or a bruise.
His baragraph pegged at 50,000, so his ultimate height in what had to be a furiously fast rise and fall could only be estimated.
(Tony Bullimore - bite your bum.)
Out of Alice Springs, (Central Australia), around 1965-1970, Bert Persson in a Blanik got to 34,000 feet or thereabouts. He'd been trained in Sweden and had there acquired the skills to know what part of the cloud, (the front), was the "UP" elevator, and what part would rip him apart. Every few thousand feet Bert popped out to have a look, then went back in for more. He said he could have gone much higher, except that his oxygen was low and the grease freezing in his controls.
To read, on the other hand, a rivetting account of the destructive power within the Cb, it's effects on the unwary, and one of the world's most incredible survival stories, go to Anne Welch's "Accidents Happen". A South American glider pilot got sucked in, passing out passing 20,000, (and risin' mumma), had six feet of both wings torn off in the ensuing terminal dive, shedding ice, and shortly after coming to, 'Jose Don't Leave Home Without Your Saint Christopher', impacted a down slope and sat there in the wreckage, a puzzled look on his face and not so much as a scratch or a bruise.
His baragraph pegged at 50,000, so his ultimate height in what had to be a furiously fast rise and fall could only be estimated.
(Tony Bullimore - bite your bum.)
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Personally, I've got within 10 (ish) miles of a CB in a C150.. I won't do it on purpose again!
However, to play devil's advocate a little. 2 anecdotes.. First off last Feb I was flying by the wonderful Kulula.com from J'burg to Durban there were storm cells all over the place. It was night, but the land below was light up clearly and continuously. Lightning was raining out of half a dozen CBs at once.. The clouds were much less than 10 miles away! We actually went into cloud (although I can't tell you if it was a charlie banger or not!) the whole journey was remarkably smooth. I'd equate it to departing Shoreham and passing to the windward side of the south downs.. a couple of gentle bumps lol!
Second anecdote regarded controlling aircraft in CB weather.. Nice new 737, vector it around the cloud. Cr@ppy old DC9 with no wx radar.. send it through.. apparantly complaints were few and far between!
Like I said, my one not so close experience with a CB had me turning around, my comfort levels were compromised long before the aircraft's!
However, to play devil's advocate a little. 2 anecdotes.. First off last Feb I was flying by the wonderful Kulula.com from J'burg to Durban there were storm cells all over the place. It was night, but the land below was light up clearly and continuously. Lightning was raining out of half a dozen CBs at once.. The clouds were much less than 10 miles away! We actually went into cloud (although I can't tell you if it was a charlie banger or not!) the whole journey was remarkably smooth. I'd equate it to departing Shoreham and passing to the windward side of the south downs.. a couple of gentle bumps lol!
Second anecdote regarded controlling aircraft in CB weather.. Nice new 737, vector it around the cloud. Cr@ppy old DC9 with no wx radar.. send it through.. apparantly complaints were few and far between!
Like I said, my one not so close experience with a CB had me turning around, my comfort levels were compromised long before the aircraft's!
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Just spotted some posts about gliders, which included [snip]
As for flying through the clouds it's worth being aware that gliders do occasionally take "cloud climbs". The ONLY requirement (apart from Rule 29) for a glider, in the UK, to comply with when flying in cloud is that "No glider shall enter cloud unless all its occupants are wearing parachutes and have been instructed in their use"
[snip]
and [snip] I must admit that's new to me - I didn't realise that gliders would fly blind like this!
A bit worrying though - what do they do to keep separation from other gliders? Are they just trusting to luck??
[snip]
and
[snip]
Yup
======================
To clarify a little, (a) almost all UK glider cloud climbs are in isolated cu or (rarely these days) cb, not in embedded cb - we are unlikely to be flying far on days when it is overcast with embedded cb.
(b) It is usual, though not mandatory, to call out on the UK glider cloud flying frequency (130.4 - for gliders only, though others can listen out) before entry, to see if anyone else is there. Further calls are made if others are nearby, and a call when returning to VMC. There are some conventions, e.g. refer position to places on 1:500,000 chart. If more than one is in the same cloud, height separation from each other is maintained, with the aid of further periodic calls - though in my experience it is rare to get more than one in the same cloud these days.
For what its worth, cloud flying is anyway much less done nowadays than hitherto - high performance gliders need it less and are also less suited to it.
Chris N.
As for flying through the clouds it's worth being aware that gliders do occasionally take "cloud climbs". The ONLY requirement (apart from Rule 29) for a glider, in the UK, to comply with when flying in cloud is that "No glider shall enter cloud unless all its occupants are wearing parachutes and have been instructed in their use"
[snip]
and [snip] I must admit that's new to me - I didn't realise that gliders would fly blind like this!
A bit worrying though - what do they do to keep separation from other gliders? Are they just trusting to luck??
[snip]
and
[snip]
Yup
======================
To clarify a little, (a) almost all UK glider cloud climbs are in isolated cu or (rarely these days) cb, not in embedded cb - we are unlikely to be flying far on days when it is overcast with embedded cb.
(b) It is usual, though not mandatory, to call out on the UK glider cloud flying frequency (130.4 - for gliders only, though others can listen out) before entry, to see if anyone else is there. Further calls are made if others are nearby, and a call when returning to VMC. There are some conventions, e.g. refer position to places on 1:500,000 chart. If more than one is in the same cloud, height separation from each other is maintained, with the aid of further periodic calls - though in my experience it is rare to get more than one in the same cloud these days.
For what its worth, cloud flying is anyway much less done nowadays than hitherto - high performance gliders need it less and are also less suited to it.
Chris N.
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Surely a glider cannot enter IMC for the same reasons a permit aircraft or other unsuitably equipped aircraft cannot enter IMC? I.e. lack of suitable equipment, and possibly lack of suitable qualifications?
If an unrated PPL decided to blindly ignore the rules and fly in IMC in a Jabiru , then wouldn't they be open to prosecution by the CAA? Why should a glider pilot be excempt?
EA
If an unrated PPL decided to blindly ignore the rules and fly in IMC in a Jabiru , then wouldn't they be open to prosecution by the CAA? Why should a glider pilot be excempt?
EA
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Englishal
I've often wondered why it is legal to drive a car, when holding a burning object in one hand (cigar/cigarette), whereas it is not legal to hold a mobile telephone.
Personally, I think that both increase the risk off driving and I also think that glider "cloud flying" conventions increase risk too.
However, as I understand it, it is legal and one needs to remember that the BGA controls the qualifications and training requirements for gliders, not the CAA and that there are differences.
Fortunately, the low probablility of two aircraft being in the same place at the same time is low and this is reflected in the safety records, although I do believe that gliders have collided in IMC in the past and that some gliding clubs insist on parachutes being worn for that reason.
Iit is not totally comforting to know that there mght be a glider lurking in a cloud that an IFR flight may transit, not painting on radar, not talking to ATC and not using a transponder.
One can only hope that the glider pilots flying in clouds are experienced enough to use a good degree of common sense in deciding whcih clouds to fly within.
I've often wondered why it is legal to drive a car, when holding a burning object in one hand (cigar/cigarette), whereas it is not legal to hold a mobile telephone.
Personally, I think that both increase the risk off driving and I also think that glider "cloud flying" conventions increase risk too.
However, as I understand it, it is legal and one needs to remember that the BGA controls the qualifications and training requirements for gliders, not the CAA and that there are differences.
Fortunately, the low probablility of two aircraft being in the same place at the same time is low and this is reflected in the safety records, although I do believe that gliders have collided in IMC in the past and that some gliding clubs insist on parachutes being worn for that reason.
Iit is not totally comforting to know that there mght be a glider lurking in a cloud that an IFR flight may transit, not painting on radar, not talking to ATC and not using a transponder.
One can only hope that the glider pilots flying in clouds are experienced enough to use a good degree of common sense in deciding whcih clouds to fly within.
