I think I've been bitten.
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I think I've been bitten.
Been doing a taildragger conversion recently. First couple of hours all going very will indeed, with plenty of solo time and all. So much so that I thought, "what is the issue? Its easy."
Well, so I thought until the crosswind picked up and I ended up slewing across the runway. I had the definate sensation of one wing running along the grass! Wing checked and no damage thankfully.
This dimwit didn't put enough aileron in to the wind. It wouldn't happen on Spammer. Definately a personal: I Learned About Flying From That experience.
Hats of to all taildragger pilots. It feels like one of those things that will take a little bit longer to click - I love it!
Well, so I thought until the crosswind picked up and I ended up slewing across the runway. I had the definate sensation of one wing running along the grass! Wing checked and no damage thankfully.
This dimwit didn't put enough aileron in to the wind. It wouldn't happen on Spammer. Definately a personal: I Learned About Flying From That experience.
Hats of to all taildragger pilots. It feels like one of those things that will take a little bit longer to click - I love it!
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Almost had the same thing happen to me yesterday in the Cub. Not enough right hand stick first time, and then over compensated second time around! Had a hangar full of 'objective observers' giving encouragement (well, I think it was encouragement 
)
Its certainly less forgiving of the sloppy this tailwheel lark.
-bcfc
)Its certainly less forgiving of the sloppy this tailwheel lark.
-bcfc
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So far I have thankfully only managed one ground loop. It happened after a hard days flying, six sectors, 5 hours and of course it happened on the last landing on a hot day. Of course I should have been concentrating on the roll out but my brain was perhaps too far ahead of the aeroplane, it was already savouring a well deserved pint! No damage to the airframe or me - my ego eventually recovered!
Have been in a large tailwheel aircraft when it was ground looped - the undercarriage came off, the prop chewed the tarmac up and it all went very quiet once we'd come to a complete stop, just the dripping of Avgas onto tarmac!
Stik
Have been in a large tailwheel aircraft when it was ground looped - the undercarriage came off, the prop chewed the tarmac up and it all went very quiet once we'd come to a complete stop, just the dripping of Avgas onto tarmac!
Stik
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I've only groundlooped once too. Was my first ever tailwheel landing, in a chippie. My instructor said he could have sorted it out for me, but knew it would be gentle and non-damaging, so elected to let it continue.
AerBloke is famous for groundlooping - he prefers to do it when he has a large audience.
AerBloke is famous for groundlooping - he prefers to do it when he has a large audience.
Welcome to the addiction HWD good fun innit 
Had a few incipient groundloops but not the real thing YET. I'm sure it's lurking there waiting for me though
Now bounces, wow, I'm really good at those
Had a few incipient groundloops but not the real thing YET. I'm sure it's lurking there waiting for me though
Now bounces, wow, I'm really good at those
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Everyone has stories to tell. On my part, I have lost control of a Supercub (weathercocked, left the runway, slowed down on the grass, no damage done) and a Harvard (touched a wingtip [which ground down an aileron hinge fitting] and scared the snot out of me, but afterwards I was SO RELIEVED because it could have been much worse).
Two conclusions can be drawn:
(1) tailwheel pilots are superior he-men (or she-women, e.g. AerBabe!) who fly 'real' aircraft that are much more difficult to handle than those 'driven' by nosedragger pilots; or
(2) tailwheel pilots are willfully blind idiots who lack the sense to fly properly designed airplanes fit for the 21st century.
One thing can be said for sure: there is much truth in the old saw about not relaxing until a tailwheel airplane is tied down in a locked hangar!
Two conclusions can be drawn:
(1) tailwheel pilots are superior he-men (or she-women, e.g. AerBabe!) who fly 'real' aircraft that are much more difficult to handle than those 'driven' by nosedragger pilots; or
(2) tailwheel pilots are willfully blind idiots who lack the sense to fly properly designed airplanes fit for the 21st century.
One thing can be said for sure: there is much truth in the old saw about not relaxing until a tailwheel airplane is tied down in a locked hangar!
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Welcome to the world of flying proper aeroplanes, without training wheels.
Don't let any-one tell you it's difficult; it's only a little different to flying with a nose wheel.
Robin,
I'd like to point out the limited use of a wind report from the tower. I've had a run-in or two because I could see that there was a better runway available and that the windsock showed a different wind to that which they reported.
It is, after all, the pilot who decides what is acceptable and what is not when the fan hits the ****, so to speak.
I was often the first to request a different runway but there always followed a flood of requests AFTER I had done so. There is no pride here; this is the respect which the aircraft demands.
All aircraft bite fools.
Don't let any-one tell you it's difficult; it's only a little different to flying with a nose wheel.
Robin,
I'd like to point out the limited use of a wind report from the tower. I've had a run-in or two because I could see that there was a better runway available and that the windsock showed a different wind to that which they reported.
It is, after all, the pilot who decides what is acceptable and what is not when the fan hits the ****, so to speak.
I was often the first to request a different runway but there always followed a flood of requests AFTER I had done so. There is no pride here; this is the respect which the aircraft demands.
All aircraft bite fools.
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All,
Its great to read your experiences. I certainly feel, as WR wrote, that my experience will concentrate my mind. Not my first aviation related wide-eyed moment, but certainly the longest yet
Strange as it may sound, I am really looking forward to flying nowhere in particular for no specific reason (if that makes any sense).
LnS,
Oh yes, now I know what a proper landing bounce is. Especially on the main wheeler landing!
Its great to read your experiences. I certainly feel, as WR wrote, that my experience will concentrate my mind. Not my first aviation related wide-eyed moment, but certainly the longest yet
Strange as it may sound, I am really looking forward to flying nowhere in particular for no specific reason (if that makes any sense).
LnS,
Oh yes, now I know what a proper landing bounce is. Especially on the main wheeler landing!
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Don't let any-one tell you it's difficult; it's only a little different to flying with a nose wheel.... All aircraft bite fools.
Taxiing, taking off, and (especially) landing in tailwheel airplanes are inherently more difficult actions than doing so in tricycle airplanes. Tailwheel is not an extremely challenging or dreadfully hazardous configuration, but the added demands that it places upon the pilot should not be dismissed.
Also, it would be wrong to suggest that only "fools" have groundloop-type accidents. Feel free to lable me a fool, but most people consider Chuck Yeager to be one of the best pilots ever. If it can happen to him (and it has: see here and here), it can happen to anyone.
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Disagree all you like, doesn't change the fact.
Read the report again. No mechanical fault with the aircraft.
One of the 'disagreements' which I mentioned earlier was over a quartering tailwind; I wouldn't accept it.
Bearing in mind all that you know about taildraggers, why would you want to go and lengthen the time and increase the speed and distance of landing by accepting a tailwind. You will also reach a condition where your airspeed is zero, thus no aerodynamic control, but you're still rolling.
I think you can read in the report that this condition did occur.
You may feel 'foolish' too strong a word here and I'd agree that it doesn't belong in an accident report, but it remains true.
I don't suggest that only fools ground loop and that isn't the point of the saying. Some may say, however, that if you get yourself into a situation which exceeds your ability, you've been foolish.
I do point out that one must not let pride get in the way of operating a taildagger.
Read the report again. No mechanical fault with the aircraft.
One of the 'disagreements' which I mentioned earlier was over a quartering tailwind; I wouldn't accept it.
Bearing in mind all that you know about taildraggers, why would you want to go and lengthen the time and increase the speed and distance of landing by accepting a tailwind. You will also reach a condition where your airspeed is zero, thus no aerodynamic control, but you're still rolling.
I think you can read in the report that this condition did occur.
You may feel 'foolish' too strong a word here and I'd agree that it doesn't belong in an accident report, but it remains true.
I don't suggest that only fools ground loop and that isn't the point of the saying. Some may say, however, that if you get yourself into a situation which exceeds your ability, you've been foolish.
I do point out that one must not let pride get in the way of operating a taildagger.
Last edited by Miserlou; 22nd Jun 2005 at 23:46.
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Miserlou
Don't disagree with what you say about the value of an ATC windcheck. My point was simply that you become much more aware of wind direction and strength with a tailwheel
You take all the info you can get, including bonfire smoke etc to make your decision, and, on occasion, ask for a better runway or go somewhere else. But you are right, some places will try to force you into unsafe conditions
It can come as a bit of a shock to a spam-can pilot used to Heathrow-type approaches when converting to a proper plane.
MLS-12D
Tailwheels aren't exactly more difficult, just need a bit more thought, planning and skill. In any event, once you've got a few hours under your belt, it will improve your nosewheel flying immeasurably
Don't disagree with what you say about the value of an ATC windcheck. My point was simply that you become much more aware of wind direction and strength with a tailwheel
You take all the info you can get, including bonfire smoke etc to make your decision, and, on occasion, ask for a better runway or go somewhere else. But you are right, some places will try to force you into unsafe conditions
It can come as a bit of a shock to a spam-can pilot used to Heathrow-type approaches when converting to a proper plane.
MLS-12D
Tailwheels aren't exactly more difficult, just need a bit more thought, planning and skill. In any event, once you've got a few hours under your belt, it will improve your nosewheel flying immeasurably
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Tailwheels aren't exactly more difficult, just need a bit more thought, planning and skill.
Miserlou, I suspect that we don't really disagree, and that we are simply talking at cross-purposes. I don't think that it is prudent to land with a tailwind. I do think that everyone, without exception, makes silly mistakes from time to time. The annals of aviation are filled with examples of fatal pilot error by people who were intelligent, experienced, and conservative pilots.
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There has been some debate on this forum regarding the precise definition, but here is what it says in Jane's Aerospace Dictionary:
Ground loop: Involuntary uncontrolled turn while moving on ground, esp during take-off or landing, common on tailwheel aeroplanes with large ground angle, caused by directional instability; if at high speed, landing gear would normally collapse before turn had reached 180 degrees.
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I hope we don't disagree MLS, but if you substitute the word silly with foolish then you'll find the saying rings true.
Perhaps to define foolish as a deliberate action and silly as an involuntary one would clear the matter up.
I cannot remember if it was Norman or Michael Jones (suspect the former) who decreed that all Tiger Club aircraft would carry the placard on the instrument panel.
So, to get this straight, whether deliberate or due to poor judgement, All Aircraft Bite Fools!
As an aside, a close friend of mine often described a particular aircraft as a pussy cat. One must always remember pussy cats still have sharp claws.
Perhaps to define foolish as a deliberate action and silly as an involuntary one would clear the matter up.
I cannot remember if it was Norman or Michael Jones (suspect the former) who decreed that all Tiger Club aircraft would carry the placard on the instrument panel.
So, to get this straight, whether deliberate or due to poor judgement, All Aircraft Bite Fools!
As an aside, a close friend of mine often described a particular aircraft as a pussy cat. One must always remember pussy cats still have sharp claws.
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I don't disagree with the sentiment; probably I just misinterpreted your original point.
In any case, the old pros at the Tiger Club certainly have more experience and wisdom than I, so I defer to their judgment!
Absolutely. There are plenty of 'easy-fly' aircraft out there, but if you do reckless or stupid things in them, they can kill you just as dead as a 'tricky' or 'hot' airplane would.
In any case, the old pros at the Tiger Club certainly have more experience and wisdom than I, so I defer to their judgment!
pussy cats still have sharp claws