Disagreement in the Air
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I'm sure I posted this story soon after it happened, but it seems relevant, so I'll post it again.
A few months ago, I was flying someone over his house, which happened to be extremely close to the edge of the Manchester zone. I felt that it was polite to give Manchester a call, just so they knew who it was that was hanging around the edge of their zone. When I told them what my detail was, they immediately told me I was "cleared into the zone if you need to, let me know when you're leaving." A very pleasant surprise!
So, from now on, any time my track takes me close to the edge of a zone, I will call up the controller and let them know that I'm going to be close to the edge of their zone. If they happen to have a quiet period, it's quite possible they'll clear you into the zone, which at the very least takes all the pressure of worrying about staying outside the zone away.
FFF
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A few months ago, I was flying someone over his house, which happened to be extremely close to the edge of the Manchester zone. I felt that it was polite to give Manchester a call, just so they knew who it was that was hanging around the edge of their zone. When I told them what my detail was, they immediately told me I was "cleared into the zone if you need to, let me know when you're leaving." A very pleasant surprise!
So, from now on, any time my track takes me close to the edge of a zone, I will call up the controller and let them know that I'm going to be close to the edge of their zone. If they happen to have a quiet period, it's quite possible they'll clear you into the zone, which at the very least takes all the pressure of worrying about staying outside the zone away.
FFF
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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FFF,
I hope you don't call them when they are busy.
There's nothing worse than having to wait for some-one who doesn't need to be talking to finish when there are people who do need to be talking and can't.
If you need or want to use their space then go ahead.
It's just a pet hate of mine, excess radio. I wonder why people can't enjoy flying without telling the world what they're up to.
I hope you don't call them when they are busy.
There's nothing worse than having to wait for some-one who doesn't need to be talking to finish when there are people who do need to be talking and can't.
If you need or want to use their space then go ahead.
It's just a pet hate of mine, excess radio. I wonder why people can't enjoy flying without telling the world what they're up to.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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The problem with Solent is they think they are Heathrow and dont want any of us "mere" hobby jockeys in there airpspace. "stay clear of controlled airpspace we have a jet leaving in a few minutes" is the common one, then 10 mins later you hear it go.
Most recently was on Sunday (twice). I arrived on frequency at Petersfield wanting an overhead transit at 2000'. The controller was very busy vectoring traffic onto his ILS, but after an initial "remain outside" he called me back with the usual "expect transit Bishops Waltham to Romsey via SAM, I'll call you back to confirm". Sure enough, I was cleared through with traffic sliding down the ILS. Same story on the way home.
Cut Solent some slack!
Join Date: Jan 2003
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dmjw01,
I think it's about people who are complaining that they are getting interfered with when they are outside of the zone.
Perhaps, my earlier moan is directed more at the pilots who call when they don't need to and get the hump about being offered advice; if they hadn't checked in on the frequency they wouldn't have been offered advice.
I think it's about people who are complaining that they are getting interfered with when they are outside of the zone.
Perhaps, my earlier moan is directed more at the pilots who call when they don't need to and get the hump about being offered advice; if they hadn't checked in on the frequency they wouldn't have been offered advice.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I've had Solent reply to my request for a transit 'Negative, route via Romsey', to which I replied 'Negative, descending to altitude XXXXft' (can't remember now, but it was just below their airspace). They appeared to think I was under their control in class G airspace... Cutting their nose off to spite their face: they would have been better off granting the transit as I would then have been under positive control. I submitted a report under the CHIRP investigation into class D transits at the time.
If you take the CPT180 route, you do need to check visual features too- I used New Alresford to check I was not inside the zone, which I wasn't. If I was IMC I'd have routed further east.
On the way home, on the other hand, I was granted a transit without question.
Tim
If you take the CPT180 route, you do need to check visual features too- I used New Alresford to check I was not inside the zone, which I wasn't. If I was IMC I'd have routed further east.
On the way home, on the other hand, I was granted a transit without question.
Tim
Join Date: Nov 2002
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And to clarify an earlier post-Solent controllers and Bournemouth controllers are not the same people- Solent are employed by National Air Traffic Services and Bournemouth by the Manchecter Airports Group.
And I would have to agree that as a controller, it really gets my goat when I hear other controllers telling pilots outside CAS what to do (unless they want it ofcourse)- I find you get a far better response if it is made in the form of a polite request:-
" To keep you clear of inbound jet traffic request you fly not above 2000 feet on QNH xxxx" works quite nicely.
I have been known (as discussed on an ealier thread about a certain Scottish Mil unit) to refuse altitude restrictions because they were phrased as if I didin't have a choice.
As a wise Chilli Monster once said "dont bull sh*t a bull Shi**er!!"
And when did Farnborough get a MATZ???????
And I would have to agree that as a controller, it really gets my goat when I hear other controllers telling pilots outside CAS what to do (unless they want it ofcourse)- I find you get a far better response if it is made in the form of a polite request:-
" To keep you clear of inbound jet traffic request you fly not above 2000 feet on QNH xxxx" works quite nicely.
I have been known (as discussed on an ealier thread about a certain Scottish Mil unit) to refuse altitude restrictions because they were phrased as if I didin't have a choice.
As a wise Chilli Monster once said "dont bull sh*t a bull Shi**er!!"
And when did Farnborough get a MATZ???????
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Another example of over-controlling:
The other day I wanted to do a few orbits of a place underneath the ILS for Cambridge. I was at 900ft QNH (700 AGL) at about 5.5 DME. This put me well underneath the glideslope, in good VMC conditions in Class G airspace. Out of politeness, I called Cambridge Approach and informed them of my presence. They called a C150 on a procedural approach as traffic and I had it visual whilst I carried on with my business. Imagine my suprise when I was instructed by Cambridge Approach, who were using primary radar only and had not identified me on radar, to fly a northerly heading because I was 'in the way of the C150'. This was despite being at least 700ft below the traffic, visual with it, and in open FIR. In the interests of good relations I complied, but in retrospect thought it a bit much!
Generally I have had good service from Cambridge, but I think on this occasion they were overstepping the mark somewhat.
By the way, I agree with those who say give Solent some slack. I have generally had no trouble with them, but must confess it is often the same voice which refuses the transits...
They do also need to teach some of their Tower controllers that to clear someone to land on 02 when they report 6 miles with two light aircraft at the holding point is not particularly expeditious!
The other day I wanted to do a few orbits of a place underneath the ILS for Cambridge. I was at 900ft QNH (700 AGL) at about 5.5 DME. This put me well underneath the glideslope, in good VMC conditions in Class G airspace. Out of politeness, I called Cambridge Approach and informed them of my presence. They called a C150 on a procedural approach as traffic and I had it visual whilst I carried on with my business. Imagine my suprise when I was instructed by Cambridge Approach, who were using primary radar only and had not identified me on radar, to fly a northerly heading because I was 'in the way of the C150'. This was despite being at least 700ft below the traffic, visual with it, and in open FIR. In the interests of good relations I complied, but in retrospect thought it a bit much!
Generally I have had good service from Cambridge, but I think on this occasion they were overstepping the mark somewhat.
By the way, I agree with those who say give Solent some slack. I have generally had no trouble with them, but must confess it is often the same voice which refuses the transits...
They do also need to teach some of their Tower controllers that to clear someone to land on 02 when they report 6 miles with two light aircraft at the holding point is not particularly expeditious!
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bose,
I trust not 
Just that if it was between say, 6am and 11pm, then in 16 years of doing ATC at Heathrow I've never known fixed wing traffic to be given a S to N (or vice versa) SVFR clearance over the airfield as described. At least not on purpose but then that's a different story
I'm surprised they managed to get all the co-ordination that would have been required done without holding you somewhere well south of the airfield for around 10 minutes. I assume there were no arrivals, unusual in itself, unless it was very early or very late.
Or was it a twin heli?
WF.
WF, Why did I bust someones airspace!!!!
Just that if it was between say, 6am and 11pm, then in 16 years of doing ATC at Heathrow I've never known fixed wing traffic to be given a S to N (or vice versa) SVFR clearance over the airfield as described. At least not on purpose but then that's a different story
I'm surprised they managed to get all the co-ordination that would have been required done without holding you somewhere well south of the airfield for around 10 minutes. I assume there were no arrivals, unusual in itself, unless it was very early or very late.
Or was it a twin heli?
WF.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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we got lucky then as we did not hold, mind you I did call them on the climb out o Redhill so they knew well in advacen we were coming.
i have to say I am still very impressed with the way they accomodated the request.
i have to say I am still very impressed with the way they accomodated the request.
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djmw01 - my personal experience with Solent has been mixed - I've finished up having to orbit at the Bournemouth / Solent boundary just waiting for Solent to talk to me after taking off from Bournemouth on 08 to head eastbound, then Solent keeping me waiting, saying they were too busy to talk to me for around 20 mins. As others have said, I don't escalate the situation whilst in the air (I don't know what other freqs / telephones that Solent are talking on at the time, although the Solent Radar freq was pretty quiet), but would usually plan my route around the Solent zone due to the perceived low level of service I've received in the past. This has happened several times - only once or twice have I actually received the crossing I wanted (and that's when I was on an IMC course, headed inbound for SOU).
Not a dig at Solent per se, who are all VERY nice people
, just a statement of past experiences.
Not a dig at Solent per se, who are all VERY nice people
, just a statement of past experiences.
