Distress Flares on board
Immersion Suit and PFD Manufacturer
Mustang Survival
Very informative on the various types of immersion suits, but a little coy on price
-- but I know what I'd want to be wearing flying to the Orkneys
Very informative on the various types of immersion suits, but a little coy on price
-- but I know what I'd want to be wearing flying to the Orkneys
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I used Mustang products fairly extensively during my naval service.
I can't say that they are 'the best': they were the only make that we were ever issued, and so I haven't tried any competitors. I can say that they are excellent quality.
I can't say that they are 'the best': they were the only make that we were ever issued, and so I haven't tried any competitors. I can say that they are excellent quality.
niknak
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Although its a realtively short stretch of water and quite busy with shipping, it's also subject to rapid changes in the direction of currents and wave conditions, as what has happened in the Atlantic the previous day, will happen there the next.
You're far better off with the best liferaft you can afford to rent, along with ELTs/ELBs - preferably water activated, and just in case it hasn't been mentioned, wear your lifejackets (uninflated) from take off to touch down.
This may all seem a bit extreme, but take it from someone who spent several years in the area, some of it assisting with SAR op
s looking for folk who didn't bother.
You're far better off with the best liferaft you can afford to rent, along with ELTs/ELBs - preferably water activated, and just in case it hasn't been mentioned, wear your lifejackets (uninflated) from take off to touch down.
This may all seem a bit extreme, but take it from someone who spent several years in the area, some of it assisting with SAR op
s looking for folk who didn't bother.
After 30 minutes in British Northern coastal waters a lifejacket just allows the rescue team to find the body assuming there is an ELT attached. An immersion suit will keep you alive longer, a dinghy will probably keep you alive. Your call. As ever it's all a matter of weighing up risks and probablilities which can only be done by yourself within your own levels of perceived comfort levels.
As I recall from my North Sea offshore training:
No immersion suit and light clothing :
5 minutes - too numb to catch a rope
10 minutes - hypothermia setting in
30 minutes - dead
Wearing an immersion suit properly fitted so that NO water seeps in around the seals, with the gloves on, the hood pulled up and the lifejacket inflated you will last as long as you stay afloat. However, gettting that lot set up takes practice and obviously it's not as easy getting the zips done up, the gloves and hood on whilst trying to set up a ditching as it is when you practice in your living room.... A dinghy will offer similar levels of protection provided that you are sensibly dressed (not t-shirt and shorts).
There's a thread around here about a Lightning pilot who ejected over the Irish Sea in summertime. He had "plenty" of time, by the time he hit the water the SAR boys were airborne and they picked him up within 10 minutes of him being in the water. As he hadn't managed to get the neck seal of the suit on properly some water seeped in with the result that he was numb to the point of near unconciousness by the time the big yellow noisy bird found him.
British coastal waters are dangerous with low water temperatures, rapid currents and a shrinking SAR service. If the SAR boys and girls get to you within an hour you'll be lucky. Unfortunately without a good survival suit or preferably a dinghy you will also, probably, be dead.
Have a look here
As I recall from my North Sea offshore training:
No immersion suit and light clothing :
5 minutes - too numb to catch a rope
10 minutes - hypothermia setting in
30 minutes - dead
Wearing an immersion suit properly fitted so that NO water seeps in around the seals, with the gloves on, the hood pulled up and the lifejacket inflated you will last as long as you stay afloat. However, gettting that lot set up takes practice and obviously it's not as easy getting the zips done up, the gloves and hood on whilst trying to set up a ditching as it is when you practice in your living room.... A dinghy will offer similar levels of protection provided that you are sensibly dressed (not t-shirt and shorts).
There's a thread around here about a Lightning pilot who ejected over the Irish Sea in summertime. He had "plenty" of time, by the time he hit the water the SAR boys were airborne and they picked him up within 10 minutes of him being in the water. As he hadn't managed to get the neck seal of the suit on properly some water seeped in with the result that he was numb to the point of near unconciousness by the time the big yellow noisy bird found him.
British coastal waters are dangerous with low water temperatures, rapid currents and a shrinking SAR service. If the SAR boys and girls get to you within an hour you'll be lucky. Unfortunately without a good survival suit or preferably a dinghy you will also, probably, be dead.
Have a look here
Last edited by LowNSlow; 25th May 2005 at 06:46.
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Yes a liferaft is great, but how many times has a light aircraft ditched and a life raft has been successfully deployed? As soon as you come to rest on the water, the aircraft will start to sink, nose first. Your first reaction will be get out, not dig around in the back trying to release the properly secured liferaft. Afterall if it is not well secured, it will probably kill you when you hit the water.
If you have a proper survival (NOT immersion suit which is different and not for use in aircraft) with a proper neckseal (not the ones that zip up the front to the neck) you will survive an extended period in the water. You will also have a much better chance of getting into a liferaft if you are lucky enough to have got it out before the aircraft sinks.
I know how hard it is to see a body in the water and this is why flares are so important. If you manage to get a good mayday out with a reasonably accurate position, you will have a helicopter on scene within an hour. A flare will mean that the helo will arrive on scene and find you very quickly. Without the flare you will probably be found, but the search might take some time. A hand held day/night flare (which is about the same size as the tube in a loo roll) has smoke one end and light the other would be best.
ELBs are also good, but remember that it might be 90 mins before a position fix reaches ARCC Kinloss (Mayday therefore very important). Homing to an ELB still requires the mark one eyeball to see the casualty but the ELB makes the search area much much smaller. A flare when the helo arrives on scene will mean that you will be picked up without having to spend time searching.
Gugnunc,
Check you PMs.
What is you intended route?
If you have a proper survival (NOT immersion suit which is different and not for use in aircraft) with a proper neckseal (not the ones that zip up the front to the neck) you will survive an extended period in the water. You will also have a much better chance of getting into a liferaft if you are lucky enough to have got it out before the aircraft sinks.
I know how hard it is to see a body in the water and this is why flares are so important. If you manage to get a good mayday out with a reasonably accurate position, you will have a helicopter on scene within an hour. A flare will mean that the helo will arrive on scene and find you very quickly. Without the flare you will probably be found, but the search might take some time. A hand held day/night flare (which is about the same size as the tube in a loo roll) has smoke one end and light the other would be best.
ELBs are also good, but remember that it might be 90 mins before a position fix reaches ARCC Kinloss (Mayday therefore very important). Homing to an ELB still requires the mark one eyeball to see the casualty but the ELB makes the search area much much smaller. A flare when the helo arrives on scene will mean that you will be picked up without having to spend time searching.
Gugnunc,
Check you PMs.
What is you intended route?
Sorry peeps, mixing up my immersion and survival suits there. I was referring to survival suits as worn by the North Sea crews when flying offshore.
Regarding liferafts, wouldn't it be better to have it on the passenger seat / passenger's lap when you actually ditch? I'm referring to the 8kg one mentioned earlier.
Regarding liferafts, wouldn't it be better to have it on the passenger seat / passenger's lap when you actually ditch? I'm referring to the 8kg one mentioned earlier.
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I carry two types of distress flare: The pencil type referred to earlier and an orange smoke.
The pencil flares are for inshore ditchings, and should be released in pairs...one to attract the attention of anyone on the coast ("I say, Mr Cholmondley-Warner, what was that?"); the second shows them where you are ("Just a fellow out for a dip, Mr Fortesque-Smythe")
The Orange smoke is for when (if) the lifeboat/helicopter appears near the scene...gives location, wind speed and direction.
Not had to try it in anger yet, fortunately.
The pencil flares are for inshore ditchings, and should be released in pairs...one to attract the attention of anyone on the coast ("I say, Mr Cholmondley-Warner, what was that?"); the second shows them where you are ("Just a fellow out for a dip, Mr Fortesque-Smythe")
The Orange smoke is for when (if) the lifeboat/helicopter appears near the scene...gives location, wind speed and direction.
Not had to try it in anger yet, fortunately.
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I wouldn't buy a second hand immersion suit, instead I bought a brand new Typhoon Alpha breathable dry suit, which is essentially the same thing, but only costs £200....Anyone who's ever been on the HUET course knows how much the seals on second hand ones leak.....
Ideally I'b be in a liferaft, in an immersion suit, with lifejacket, with an EPIRB and flares.
Second to that, I'd rather be in an immersion suit, with life jacket with EPIRB in hand and flares.
Failing that, Immersion suit, life jacket, EPIRB.
Of course in a "proper" survival suit, you could last hours in very cold water, I'm sure there are more than a couple of Norweigan boys who've floated around Fjords in winter for several days with no ill effects. Trouble is you would probably not get out of the aircraft in one.
Ideally I'b be in a liferaft, in an immersion suit, with lifejacket, with an EPIRB and flares.
Second to that, I'd rather be in an immersion suit, with life jacket with EPIRB in hand and flares.
Failing that, Immersion suit, life jacket, EPIRB.
Of course in a "proper" survival suit, you could last hours in very cold water, I'm sure there are more than a couple of Norweigan boys who've floated around Fjords in winter for several days with no ill effects. Trouble is you would probably not get out of the aircraft in one.
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For what it may be worth, Peter Garrison (columnist for Flying magazine) has a section on survival gear - especially life rafts - in his 1981 book, Long-Distance Flying. He sums up as follows:
See further his 2001 article "Why People Don't Fly".
It is all really too fanciful. You carry certain basic pieces of survival equipment because it seems foolhardy to go over water with no protection at all. But it is impossible to protect yourself against every remote eventuality. The majority of airplanes that ditch in the ocean disappear with their pilots; the few pilots that are saved are those that ditch alongside ships, or in otherwise impeccable conditions. What is more to the point is that ditchings are very rare.... In the final analysis, when you make an ocean crossing you are risking your life; you must simply face that fact. The risk is small; whether survival equipment of exotic types would make it any smaller is impossible to say.
...
In thinking about survival, I always come back to the idea that there are some people who are simply not going to want to fly across the ocean, and there are others who will. Those who don't want to will not be persuaded by the presence of a life raft, no matter how well equipped; and those who do will not be deterred by the absence of one. For me, it was sufficient reassurance that many people had done it, and few had come to grief. In restrospect, the satisfactions and pleasures of my ocean flights have certainly warranted the risks, whatever they may have been.
...
In thinking about survival, I always come back to the idea that there are some people who are simply not going to want to fly across the ocean, and there are others who will. Those who don't want to will not be persuaded by the presence of a life raft, no matter how well equipped; and those who do will not be deterred by the absence of one. For me, it was sufficient reassurance that many people had done it, and few had come to grief. In restrospect, the satisfactions and pleasures of my ocean flights have certainly warranted the risks, whatever they may have been.
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boomerangben
It may be 90 mins before Kinloss get the sat fix (is this current information for 406MHz?) but an EPIRB also has a 121.50 emission which the SAR heli will home in on.
I used to carry flares when windsurfing (having been told to on the RYA course, as if this was on a 90ft yacht...) and I don't think one has much of a chance of firing one in any sort of heavy seas, before the thing fills up with water.
The 121.50 emission from an EPIRB/ELT should be better for DF than a flare - and it lasts many hours.
It may be 90 mins before Kinloss get the sat fix (is this current information for 406MHz?) but an EPIRB also has a 121.50 emission which the SAR heli will home in on.
I used to carry flares when windsurfing (having been told to on the RYA course, as if this was on a 90ft yacht...) and I don't think one has much of a chance of firing one in any sort of heavy seas, before the thing fills up with water.
The 121.50 emission from an EPIRB/ELT should be better for DF than a flare - and it lasts many hours.
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Hi IO540,
The major benefits of 406MHz is the fact that it is a dedicated frequency and has sufficient band width to contain position information. With the position information (that requires a built in GPS or GPS interface) a 406 alert will take less than 30 mins to scramble a helo. Without it, it will take upto 90 mins. Obviously a good mayday message will get SAR operations going sooner. It is important to remember that a homer is merely a sensitive NDB receiver and has the same limitations as those beloved nav aids. There is no range information other than the increasing sensitivity of the needle. So an aircraft will only know it has arrived once it has gone through the cone of confusion and overshot. A well timed flare will increase the chance of being found on the first pass and save a more time consuming search. I am not trying to suggest a flare is better than a beacon but 30 pounds spent on flares is good value to compliment an EPIRB.
I cannot understand this fascination for liferafts. A liferaft only works if all of the following events are survived:
The impact,
the escape,
the cold shock and incapacitation
the removal of liferaft from partially sunk/rapidly sinking aircraft,
being able to inflate, right it from a capsize (if its not your day, it will inflate upside down), hang onto it and actually get into it.
Would a helmet be a better initial investment?
The major benefits of 406MHz is the fact that it is a dedicated frequency and has sufficient band width to contain position information. With the position information (that requires a built in GPS or GPS interface) a 406 alert will take less than 30 mins to scramble a helo. Without it, it will take upto 90 mins. Obviously a good mayday message will get SAR operations going sooner. It is important to remember that a homer is merely a sensitive NDB receiver and has the same limitations as those beloved nav aids. There is no range information other than the increasing sensitivity of the needle. So an aircraft will only know it has arrived once it has gone through the cone of confusion and overshot. A well timed flare will increase the chance of being found on the first pass and save a more time consuming search. I am not trying to suggest a flare is better than a beacon but 30 pounds spent on flares is good value to compliment an EPIRB.
I cannot understand this fascination for liferafts. A liferaft only works if all of the following events are survived:
The impact,
the escape,
the cold shock and incapacitation
the removal of liferaft from partially sunk/rapidly sinking aircraft,
being able to inflate, right it from a capsize (if its not your day, it will inflate upside down), hang onto it and actually get into it.
Would a helmet be a better initial investment?
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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IO540
..before what fills up? The aircraft, the liferaft or the flare? Agree if it the a/c but a liferaft should still float full of water and the flare should operate even if it's been submerged and they shouldn't go out if they get wet either.
Also it's worth pointing out that unless you ve fired a flare you WILL get a shock! The handheld ones drop burning dross and they get rather warm - need to be used at arms length! As for trying to fire a rocket whilst floating - well I wouldn't like to try it as they give a nice kick and again you want to be holding it at arms length when it goes off. It's fun when stood on the deck of a stable vessel - really wouldn't want to try it floating around in the water but having said that... the RNLI use a day/night flare attached tot he lifejacket harness which is both a red flare and orange smoke combined for use if you re unfortunate enough to go overboard. Similar to this
PW
I used to carry flares when windsurfing (having been told to on the RYA course, as if this was on a 90ft yacht...) and I don't think one has much of a chance of firing one in any sort of heavy seas, before the thing fills up with water.
Also it's worth pointing out that unless you ve fired a flare you WILL get a shock! The handheld ones drop burning dross and they get rather warm - need to be used at arms length! As for trying to fire a rocket whilst floating - well I wouldn't like to try it as they give a nice kick and again you want to be holding it at arms length when it goes off. It's fun when stood on the deck of a stable vessel - really wouldn't want to try it floating around in the water but having said that... the RNLI use a day/night flare attached tot he lifejacket harness which is both a red flare and orange smoke combined for use if you re unfortunate enough to go overboard. Similar to this
PW
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Why not try a divers drysuit ( just dont get any valves fitted). The membrane ones are quite cheap and you can get front zips to make them easier to get into. They can be fully customised with different pockets etc.
I have a Polar Bears one which has dry gloves too - only my head gets wet. I also carry a inflatable 6' marker bouy ( OK this is for diving but it is quite small and light when packed) along with a strobe on my bouyancy jacket.
I had a pack of pencil flares many years ago but haven't seen them to buy lately. They were in a coke can sized waterproof container
Assuming you survive a ditching - getting out of the aircraft with anything other than what you are wearing will be a challenge to say the least.
DIsclamer: I use this gear for diving - have never worn it in an aircraft.
I have a question for the guys who have done the North Sea offshore survival course. Do you expel all the air from the suit before entering the helicopter? And do you keep the suit zipped up for the whole journey
Found these after a quick search.
miniflares
I have a Polar Bears one which has dry gloves too - only my head gets wet. I also carry a inflatable 6' marker bouy ( OK this is for diving but it is quite small and light when packed) along with a strobe on my bouyancy jacket.
I had a pack of pencil flares many years ago but haven't seen them to buy lately. They were in a coke can sized waterproof container
Assuming you survive a ditching - getting out of the aircraft with anything other than what you are wearing will be a challenge to say the least.
DIsclamer: I use this gear for diving - have never worn it in an aircraft.
I have a question for the guys who have done the North Sea offshore survival course. Do you expel all the air from the suit before entering the helicopter? And do you keep the suit zipped up for the whole journey
Found these after a quick search.
miniflares
Last edited by GeneralMelchet; 27th May 2005 at 11:03.
General Melchet yes and yes. Not the most comfortable way to travel but, given the number of choppers that have gone into the oggin, it is reassuring.
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LowNSlow,
Thanks, a number of people had mentioned leaving their suits unzipped until the worst happens ( for comfort reasons) . This gives you the problem of having to zip up in a hurry when you should be flying the plane and having a suit full of air which may stop you exiting a submerged aircraft.
From diving experience I can tell you that getting into a boat or liferaft unaided is no easy task - it gets harder if you are cold. If I was flying overwater trips I would wear a survival suit (2nd hand drysuit would do)and lifevest with all my gear attached (flares,strobe and EPRIB). This would be based on at least being able to get off some sort of mayday call and being able to survive in the water until rescue arrives. In my opinion (and I stress this is only my opinion) if you go into the water without a suit on you will severely reduce your chances of survival, even if you do have a liferaft.
Thanks, a number of people had mentioned leaving their suits unzipped until the worst happens ( for comfort reasons) . This gives you the problem of having to zip up in a hurry when you should be flying the plane and having a suit full of air which may stop you exiting a submerged aircraft.
From diving experience I can tell you that getting into a boat or liferaft unaided is no easy task - it gets harder if you are cold. If I was flying overwater trips I would wear a survival suit (2nd hand drysuit would do)and lifevest with all my gear attached (flares,strobe and EPRIB). This would be based on at least being able to get off some sort of mayday call and being able to survive in the water until rescue arrives. In my opinion (and I stress this is only my opinion) if you go into the water without a suit on you will severely reduce your chances of survival, even if you do have a liferaft.
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Where are you leaving from?
http://www.splashsports.co.uk/frameset.htm
You can rent a membrane suit from splash sports for 20 quid a day. I wouldn't worry about being diver qualified. If you tell Rickie (glasgow) what you want it for I am sure he will liberate cash off you for something suitable. He may also have an ELT available and a mini flare pack.
MJ
http://www.splashsports.co.uk/frameset.htm
You can rent a membrane suit from splash sports for 20 quid a day. I wouldn't worry about being diver qualified. If you tell Rickie (glasgow) what you want it for I am sure he will liberate cash off you for something suitable. He may also have an ELT available and a mini flare pack.
MJ
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Are modern diving suits breathable? The ones we use are made of Goretex and are relatively comfortable, even for prolonged periods. You do need to make sure that the neck and wrist seals are properly trimmed to stop your extremities going blue!!
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I would think all the gas would piss out the gortex holes under pressure. Not a great fan of membrane suits for diving so i am not up on the current technology.
The rental suits are all quite slack on the seals and i think most are neoprene. which are not as comfy but are alot less likely to rip.
I agree the made for the job ones would proberly be best but. Its the cost v comfy, something usable for a 1 off weekend flight will cost 40 quid for the weekend. I have worn my Otter compressed for a 1.5 hour flight and apart from being a bit sweaty no problems. My record in the suit was 10 hours driving a rib in the sound of Mull only problem was the emergency 20 quid note for beer supplys was a bit moist in the Loch Aline social club.
And if any one is up in the area the Bambi Burgers from the van next to the ferry slip are well worth a visit.
MJ
The rental suits are all quite slack on the seals and i think most are neoprene. which are not as comfy but are alot less likely to rip.
I agree the made for the job ones would proberly be best but. Its the cost v comfy, something usable for a 1 off weekend flight will cost 40 quid for the weekend. I have worn my Otter compressed for a 1.5 hour flight and apart from being a bit sweaty no problems. My record in the suit was 10 hours driving a rib in the sound of Mull only problem was the emergency 20 quid note for beer supplys was a bit moist in the Loch Aline social club.
And if any one is up in the area the Bambi Burgers from the van next to the ferry slip are well worth a visit.
MJ
Suave yet Shallow
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The RAF/Army chaps have seemingly very practical integrated life jackets & survival vests - With lots of pockets and pouches for all your goodies. They look reasonably hard wearing too.
They seem like a good idea in that if properly kitted up (with your handheld radio..gps and other bits) all you'd need to do is clamber out and you'd not have to worry about grabbing bags etc from the seats behind.
I wouldn't know where to source them from though.
They seem like a good idea in that if properly kitted up (with your handheld radio..gps and other bits) all you'd need to do is clamber out and you'd not have to worry about grabbing bags etc from the seats behind.
I wouldn't know where to source them from though.
