Cpl Or Ppl Holder Pic???
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Look, the simple answer is that the pilot in command is just that- the pilot in command. Not the pilot in the left hand seat, not the pilot with the most privileges, and not the pilot with the most experience. Simply the pilot who both of you have agreed in advance, is in command of the flight, and responsible for it's safe conduct.
You must agree before you go flying, who is going to be in command at what times. That way if you have a disagreement over something, you've already agreed who's in charge. That way something doesn't get over looked, because you thought the other person was in charge of that. And that way, third parties know who to go after if something goes wrong.
Who ever you agree before the flight is going to be pilot in command, logs it as pilot in command, and the other person logs nothing.
If you fly a 1 & 1/2 hour flight from Dublin, to Kerry, and agree that one of you is in command for the first 45 minutes, and the other is in command for the second 45 minutes, then I'd log it as departing Dublin at the take off time, and Landing in Kerry at the landing time, and 45 minutes under "Single Engine In Command" section. The fast that it took 90 minutes is irrelevant, if you were only in command for 45 minutes.
Hope that helps.
You must agree before you go flying, who is going to be in command at what times. That way if you have a disagreement over something, you've already agreed who's in charge. That way something doesn't get over looked, because you thought the other person was in charge of that. And that way, third parties know who to go after if something goes wrong.
Who ever you agree before the flight is going to be pilot in command, logs it as pilot in command, and the other person logs nothing.
If you fly a 1 & 1/2 hour flight from Dublin, to Kerry, and agree that one of you is in command for the first 45 minutes, and the other is in command for the second 45 minutes, then I'd log it as departing Dublin at the take off time, and Landing in Kerry at the landing time, and 45 minutes under "Single Engine In Command" section. The fast that it took 90 minutes is irrelevant, if you were only in command for 45 minutes.
Hope that helps.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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is there NO reason why a CPL holder should be captain over a PPL holder? The way it sounded to by him was as if they automatically captain because they hold a 'better' licence. You know just like you can have a SGT in the army who been there for 20 years but an officer who just passed out of sandhust is automatically in charge.
Whenever two pilots fly a non-revenue flight in a dual-control but single-pilot aircraft, who is in charge is a matter subject to (advance) mutual agreement. If you and your friend can't come to a mutually acceptable solution, just don't fly together.
Alternatively, if he is so impressed by his 'better' license, let him serve as P1 and log all the time, but only on the condition that he pays all of the cost of renting the airplane. That's fair.
P.S. In any case, things in the army don't actually operate precisely in the manner described: any newly-minted subaltern who doesn't privately defer to a senior NCO on most matters is making life difficult for himself, in more ways than one.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
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nice one! Yea that money point is a good one! It was simply something i thought was true since he came out with it, i just thought it might make sense, however it is clear powered flying is like gliding which i do more often as it does not depend on the class of the pilot, we just decide on the ground who is in charge and who deals with any emergencies etc that may arise.
But that money point is a good one which I will keep in mind for the future, 'u want the hour... u pay!'
Join Date: Sep 2003
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I believe there has been a case where an FI was sitting in the back of an a/c which crashed and he was prosecuted for NOT having taken over from the less experienced PPL who was flying. A great situation to be in!!
I do remember a case of a glider CFI losing his CFI status for being in a fatal motor glider accident. I could never understand that either, the PPL who sadly died was ASAIR current and P1. The CFI wasn't prosecuted, but the BGA removed his rating as they felt that due to the circumstances of the accident that he should have taken over
I can see how an instructor may feel under pressure to take over when cases like this occur, but I feel it sets a dangerous precedent. As previously stated, the fact someone has a CPL or is an instructor does not mean they are in any way "better" able to cope with any given situation. They may be ... but certainly not by virtue of licence! I regularly fly with a CPL/instructor friend of mine. If it's in his aeroplane and I'm flying P1.... I'm P1! That said, If the engine stopped, I would by virtue of his experience "on type" hand over control (as we would have agreed beforehand). If he were flying with me in my aeroplane, there is no way he would ever presume to take over control by virtue of his superior licence.... he is far too proffessional for that! He, like any sensible PILOT knows that they cannot always be the one best suited to fly the aeroplane. The time to decide who is P1, how emergencies would be dealt with (and by whom) is on the ground, not under pressure in the air. Any court who decides differently is Mickey Mouse!!!
SS
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It sounds nuts doesn't it! The problem seems to arise when a more experienced pilot allows the lesss experienced operating pilot get into a situation, the thinking being that it is your duty to step in. (note I'm not talking about who has what licence here, that is an irrelevance as has been mentioned by others before.)
I'm going to check up on this one myself, since I've really only heard it through hearsay, but in a small way it makes sense even if it is unsavoury.
I'm going to check up on this one myself, since I've really only heard it through hearsay, but in a small way it makes sense even if it is unsavoury.
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I would like to actually SEE proof of this case where the Instructor was prosecuted in writing. I think it is another aviation myth well propogated bu unfounded. How can a passenger be responsible for the actions of the pilot.
Next thing we will have a driving instructor in the back of a car that crashes being prosecuted because he was in the back and "should" have done something by virtue of being an instructor.
Load of tosh if you ask me!
If flying Lawyer is about I would like to hear is view on culpability of a passenger?
Next thing we will have a driving instructor in the back of a car that crashes being prosecuted because he was in the back and "should" have done something by virtue of being an instructor.
Load of tosh if you ask me!
If flying Lawyer is about I would like to hear is view on culpability of a passenger?
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I don't believe that any regulator has ever taken action against a qualified airman acting as a passenger and sitting in a passenger seat, for failing to act to counter a bad move by the lawful commander of the flight.
Where the airman-passenger happens to be sitting in a crew seat, I would expect the limit of his responsibility to be:
a) To pass advice as might be appropriate where a serious situation seems likely to develop; and
b) To act if, in extremis, the aircraft, its occupants or people on the ground, are placed in immediate danger as a result of actions or inactions of the commander.
2D
Where the airman-passenger happens to be sitting in a crew seat, I would expect the limit of his responsibility to be:
a) To pass advice as might be appropriate where a serious situation seems likely to develop; and
b) To act if, in extremis, the aircraft, its occupants or people on the ground, are placed in immediate danger as a result of actions or inactions of the commander.
2D
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I use the rule that if two pilots are flying together , then he who sits in the left seat does any emergency landing, and the other helps. If I'm flying with a CFI under instruction he/she'd take over UNLESS they didn't want to (example of this is when on a CPL on his CPL test experienced a gear failure. The examiner "talked him down" to a successful crash landing.....and he passed the skills test).
Thats all that needs to be agreed beforehand, if you want to swap flying en-route, fine, we often do it.
Thats all that needs to be agreed beforehand, if you want to swap flying en-route, fine, we often do it.
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I would like to actually SEE proof of this case where the Instructor was prosecuted in writing. I think it is another aviation myth well propogated but unfounded. How can a passenger be responsible for the actions of the pilot.
There was a case a few years ago of a PPL and FAA CPL flying together in the left and right seats respectively. After an accident (fuel exhaustion, I think), both denied being commander. Action was taken against the CPL. (Might have been an ATP and/or CFI, I forget)
It was discussed at length on PPrune but I can't find it in currently available posts.
It was discussed at length on PPrune but I can't find it in currently available posts.
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In our single engine aircraft, private flying, there is only ONE PIC, normally the one in the seat in which the aircraft is flown solo. That would mean for the standard plane the left seat. It doesn't matter what licence the other person has, unless it's an instruction flight with an instructor. And that's the way the insurance companies will normally handle it I'm sure.
I was once married to an ATPL'er, but when we flew together and I was in the left seat, then I was PIC, not him! No questions asked!
And I think sharing hours without a landing silly.... if I fly with buddies, then each flies a complete leg... that way there is no question as to who is PIC!
@aaron5150
I think the guy is just trying to collect hours at your cost!
Westy
I was once married to an ATPL'er, but when we flew together and I was in the left seat, then I was PIC, not him! No questions asked!
And I think sharing hours without a landing silly.... if I fly with buddies, then each flies a complete leg... that way there is no question as to who is PIC!
@aaron5150
I think the guy is just trying to collect hours at your cost!
Westy
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Definitely there are cases such as the one bookworm describes. Where both pilots survive the crash, who was in command will essentially be a matter of credibility, unless pre-flight documentation (e.g., an aircraft sign-out sheet) is available to show who was PIC.
This is mad.
The person that signs the tech log is the commander, and is the person responsible should anything go wrong and the person that books the time, end of story. Even if the commander elects to allow a more experienced person in the right hand seat to carry out an emergency procedure surely the commander is still the commander.
It also seems strange to me that people are talking about sharing flight time on a single flight. I often fly with friends who are pilots. When I'm in their aircraft it wouldn't even cross my mind to book the time even if I ended up flying the whole of the cruise, likewise they wouldn't book any time when with me. If it's a shared aircraft one pilot flies one leg and the other pilot does the next leg. If you allow someone else to take the controls in flight that does not diminish your responsibility as commander. You are still responsible if they wander into controlled airspace even if they have twice the experience that you do.
If the worse thing happens and the fan stops spinning the best thing the other pilot can do is monitor the P1, make sure they are achieving best glide, look for a good landing site, check the PF has done the emergency drills and make the mayday call.
Just my 2 cents worth.
SW
The person that signs the tech log is the commander, and is the person responsible should anything go wrong and the person that books the time, end of story. Even if the commander elects to allow a more experienced person in the right hand seat to carry out an emergency procedure surely the commander is still the commander.
It also seems strange to me that people are talking about sharing flight time on a single flight. I often fly with friends who are pilots. When I'm in their aircraft it wouldn't even cross my mind to book the time even if I ended up flying the whole of the cruise, likewise they wouldn't book any time when with me. If it's a shared aircraft one pilot flies one leg and the other pilot does the next leg. If you allow someone else to take the controls in flight that does not diminish your responsibility as commander. You are still responsible if they wander into controlled airspace even if they have twice the experience that you do.
If the worse thing happens and the fan stops spinning the best thing the other pilot can do is monitor the P1, make sure they are achieving best glide, look for a good landing site, check the PF has done the emergency drills and make the mayday call.
Just my 2 cents worth.
SW
The person that signs the tech log is the commander
There is no Tech Log for a private category aircraft, and even where a Tech Log is required, the obligations concern only record of times and defects after the flight.
I've always flown club aircraft, and the captains name is always stated on the tech log.
SW
I--I