Notam yesterday
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Notam yesterday
So which course of action would have displayed good "airmanship" yesterday?
Notam NAVW H1187/05
valid 06.30 to lunchtime the next day.
Intended drop time 10.30.
High altitude freefall exercise from a hot air balloon sfc to 25,ooo'
Applicable area of 314 square miles sitting between controlled airspace of Lyneham & Bristol.
Routing southbound at 2000' and wanting to pass through this uncontrolled airspace around the "intended" time, I asked the FIS at Kemble - they had no knowledge of the status of this Notam.
So I next asked Filton LARS, being one of the nearest units to the drop area, they were very busy and had me on standby for ever ( we were ALL out enjoying the great weather yesterday) and eventually over Bath came back with "no information about that Notam".
So I pressed on unhappily for Compton, waiting to see freefall hot air ballons or whatever flash past at terminal velocity, probably getting good headcam images of my registration .(pace Chipmunks everywhere).
Was I right to continue? or given the uncertainty should I have abandoned the flight and turned North for 36 hours?
Answers on a post card please.........
regards
HnH
Notam NAVW H1187/05
valid 06.30 to lunchtime the next day.
Intended drop time 10.30.
High altitude freefall exercise from a hot air balloon sfc to 25,ooo'
Applicable area of 314 square miles sitting between controlled airspace of Lyneham & Bristol.
Routing southbound at 2000' and wanting to pass through this uncontrolled airspace around the "intended" time, I asked the FIS at Kemble - they had no knowledge of the status of this Notam.
So I next asked Filton LARS, being one of the nearest units to the drop area, they were very busy and had me on standby for ever ( we were ALL out enjoying the great weather yesterday) and eventually over Bath came back with "no information about that Notam".
So I pressed on unhappily for Compton, waiting to see freefall hot air ballons or whatever flash past at terminal velocity, probably getting good headcam images of my registration .(pace Chipmunks everywhere).
Was I right to continue? or given the uncertainty should I have abandoned the flight and turned North for 36 hours?
Answers on a post card please.........
regards
HnH
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I would ask why none of the local units new about the NOTAM, and also why the originator felt it appropriate to claim such a large chunk of sky for so long just for a single drop.
TPK
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Hireandhire,
Given the recognised improvement on the performance of the AIS briefing website on another thread (We seem to be getting better), where did you obtain your briefing from?
Did you pull it straight of the AIS website or did it come from a 3rd party supplier?
It was a cracking day yesterday, regretablly I spent most of it strapped into the back seat of two seat glider teaching spinning and stalling exercises and you can do an awful lot of both with 8 knot climbs to a 4500' cloud base.
Regards
Bletchleytugie
Given the recognised improvement on the performance of the AIS briefing website on another thread (We seem to be getting better), where did you obtain your briefing from?
Did you pull it straight of the AIS website or did it come from a 3rd party supplier?
It was a cracking day yesterday, regretablly I spent most of it strapped into the back seat of two seat glider teaching spinning and stalling exercises and you can do an awful lot of both with 8 knot climbs to a 4500' cloud base.
Regards
Bletchleytugie
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Bletchleytugie hi;
yeah, it was a super day for aviating, but we GA don't always appreciate the updrafts so much.
I use Notamcheck service, which both plots them and shows original text. Gave up on AIS long ago.
I'll see if I can verify it but why would it be wrong?
The 314sq mile crack was based on the notamed 10 ntmile radius based on Shepton Mallet.
(I should have said in my original post "sitting between controlled airspace of Yeovilton & Bristol.")
And once you've seen the CAA video of a skydiver just FEET away from a passing Chippie, you get nervous....
regards
HnH
Eventually found the original on the AIS site
( what cr*p that site is. Even with broadband I gave up waiting for pages to load twice, and it\'s murder to navigate around to be sure that you have got all info you need to see. Do what I do and use Notamcheck)
B)05/05/11 06:30 UTC C)05/05/12 12:30 NAVW (H1187/05)
D)0630-1230
E) AUS 05-06-0047/1314/AS2
HIGH ALTITUDE FREEFALL TEAM PJE FROM A HOT AIR BALLOON WI 10NM RADIUS
5117N 00233W (STON EASTON, NEAR SHEPTON MALLET, SOMERSET). (INTENDED
DROP TIME 1030). ACTIVITY WILL REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE.
F)SFC G)25000FT AMSL
Anyone from LARS care to comment?
regards
HnH
yeah, it was a super day for aviating, but we GA don't always appreciate the updrafts so much.
I use Notamcheck service, which both plots them and shows original text. Gave up on AIS long ago.
I'll see if I can verify it but why would it be wrong?
The 314sq mile crack was based on the notamed 10 ntmile radius based on Shepton Mallet.
(I should have said in my original post "sitting between controlled airspace of Yeovilton & Bristol.")
And once you've seen the CAA video of a skydiver just FEET away from a passing Chippie, you get nervous....
regards
HnH
Eventually found the original on the AIS site
( what cr*p that site is. Even with broadband I gave up waiting for pages to load twice, and it\'s murder to navigate around to be sure that you have got all info you need to see. Do what I do and use Notamcheck)
B)05/05/11 06:30 UTC C)05/05/12 12:30 NAVW (H1187/05)
D)0630-1230
E) AUS 05-06-0047/1314/AS2
HIGH ALTITUDE FREEFALL TEAM PJE FROM A HOT AIR BALLOON WI 10NM RADIUS
5117N 00233W (STON EASTON, NEAR SHEPTON MALLET, SOMERSET). (INTENDED
DROP TIME 1030). ACTIVITY WILL REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE.
F)SFC G)25000FT AMSL
Anyone from LARS care to comment?
regards
HnH
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Could I suggest that there may have been a typo error in the text. I would speculate that the end time should have also been on the 11th and not the 12th. Nevertheless, adjacent ATS agencies should have known about it.
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Perhaps the adjacent agencies were aware of the NOTAM but had no information on the actual status of the drop. Therefore they could offer 'no information' to let the pilot know whether it had been completed or not ??
The exercise sponsors should be aware of the need to issue a cancellation NOTAM once the airspace was no longer needed by them, in these days of Flexible Use of Airspace and sharing. Sadly, some MoD units are much better than others at doing so.
The exercise sponsors should be aware of the need to issue a cancellation NOTAM once the airspace was no longer needed by them, in these days of Flexible Use of Airspace and sharing. Sadly, some MoD units are much better than others at doing so.
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WB Satco,
I assumed that the top line of a NOTAM showed the validity time and dates. The next line shows the actual times and dates of the activity. Certainly we see many NOTAMs using a similar system, so I think it is unlikely to be a typo.
As for flying through that airspace...... given it was notamed for parachuting, should it not be treated in the same way as a permanent para dropping site, ie stay well clear unless in comms with them?
If someone was going to shove me out of a balloon at 25000' I would want a 10nm dia patch to aim for.
I assumed that the top line of a NOTAM showed the validity time and dates. The next line shows the actual times and dates of the activity. Certainly we see many NOTAMs using a similar system, so I think it is unlikely to be a typo.
As for flying through that airspace...... given it was notamed for parachuting, should it not be treated in the same way as a permanent para dropping site, ie stay well clear unless in comms with them?
If someone was going to shove me out of a balloon at 25000' I would want a 10nm dia patch to aim for.
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boomer, I agree, but it just seems a little odd to me. One could read the NOTAM in various ways. Its a freefall dsplay team, jumping in an unusual location. On the one hand, they have tried to be accurate with the actual jump time; on the other, it could happen on one of two dates (or both) - how many jumps were they planning to do? I think this is a good example of how the NOTAM system can be quite confusing. Did anyone call AS2 at AUS to clarify?
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boomer
that was a 10NM RADIUS = 20 NM diameter chunk of airspace around which everyone was expected to fly (well not me, I was sitting in the office - doh!)
But it does seem to be a bit cheeky for persons unknown to grab that much airspace, for a very indeterminate period without organising proper comms,info to controllers etc.
PS did they actually jump/exceed the speed of sound without a plane or whatever the point was? Didn't see anything in the press.
that was a 10NM RADIUS = 20 NM diameter chunk of airspace around which everyone was expected to fly (well not me, I was sitting in the office - doh!)
But it does seem to be a bit cheeky for persons unknown to grab that much airspace, for a very indeterminate period without organising proper comms,info to controllers etc.
PS did they actually jump/exceed the speed of sound without a plane or whatever the point was? Didn't see anything in the press.
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The NOTAM was cancelled by H1265/05 on 11 May at 1525 as activity had been completed. So the date in the original NOTAM matters not a lot because anyone briefing (from a regulated source) on the 12th would not have seen the NOTAM.
The NOTAM originator could have / should have included contact details so that you could check the actual times more effectively - why not drop AUS a line or call them and ask if they could please include contact info in future?
Quite why various LARS didn't know about the NOTAM is a different question... London Info would have known
The NOTAM originator could have / should have included contact details so that you could check the actual times more effectively - why not drop AUS a line or call them and ask if they could please include contact info in future?
Quite why various LARS didn't know about the NOTAM is a different question... London Info would have known
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The exercise sponsors should be aware of the need to issue a cancellation NOTAM once the airspace was no longer needed by them, in these days of Flexible Use of Airspace and sharing. Sadly, some MoD units are much better than others at doing so.
The NOTAM was cancelled by H1265/05 on 11 May at 1525 as activity had been completed.
As Rustle said, the only improvement to be made would be the addition of the contact phone number or RT frequency (if available).
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Exactly, Whipping
There is nothing I can see in the Notam telling me which service to contact.
And by 1525 I was already in the air on my way back around that space; didn't even try to call LARS a second time.
We have no squawk and one vintage radio - I don't have time to have my head down in the cockpit manually switching up loads of different frequncies. It was unusually diligent of me to call both Kemble and Filton; usually I would not have bothered on a cross-country.
I'm getting curious now.
Who / what is AS2 at AUS?
I'm happy to call them. if only to find out who was the PJE for? What was the specific piece of MoD training being conducted (if it was them?) How many jumpers were there? Who was the responsible unit for the Notam?
All in the interests of flight safety you understand.
regards
HnH
.
There is nothing I can see in the Notam telling me which service to contact.
And by 1525 I was already in the air on my way back around that space; didn't even try to call LARS a second time.
We have no squawk and one vintage radio - I don't have time to have my head down in the cockpit manually switching up loads of different frequncies. It was unusually diligent of me to call both Kemble and Filton; usually I would not have bothered on a cross-country.
I'm getting curious now.
Who / what is AS2 at AUS?
I'm happy to call them. if only to find out who was the PJE for? What was the specific piece of MoD training being conducted (if it was them?) How many jumpers were there? Who was the responsible unit for the Notam?
All in the interests of flight safety you understand.
regards
HnH
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cheeky for persons unknown to grab that much airspace
It is up to the person in charge of the drop to ensure that it can safely be made before despatching his cargo. To that end it would be eminently sensible if he were in contact with a radar unit who would be able to advise him whether or not there was any known confliction. It would also, as a matter of common courtesy, be sensible to include in the NOTAM "drop a/c will be in contact with xyz radar" as that would enable pilots to check whether the jump was about to take place and route round if it was.
This NOTAM seems to illustrate a failure of the duty of care owed by the organiser. It's no use moaning at AIS about it, all they do is publish the information. They will however be able to tell you who the originator was so you can pursue your complaint. First stop would probably be the Airspace Utilisation section at AIS/DAP who have overall responisibility for UK Airspace.
I've seen the headcam video of the close encounter with the chippie. IMHO the pilot was doing nothing wrong so long as he was outside CAS.
Who / what is AS2 at AUS?
CAP723 will tell you all you need to know.
Assistant Director, Airspace Policy 2 Gp Capt Jim Stenson
Telephone 020 7453 6502
Fax 020 7453 6565
e-mail [email protected]
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Mike thanks
I'll make a constructive call today and report back.
HnH
Just spoke to a helpful guy on the desk at AUS.
They are aware of the issues and were already looking at improving the contact details provided in the notam in the near future.
Not sure why the nearby LARS were not aware of status.
Turn out to have been a private venture by Templeman Adams, three ****s skydiving in full naval uniform (?) to claim "Highest Dinner Party" record.
So now we know.
I'll make a constructive call today and report back.
HnH
Just spoke to a helpful guy on the desk at AUS.
They are aware of the issues and were already looking at improving the contact details provided in the notam in the near future.
Not sure why the nearby LARS were not aware of status.
Turn out to have been a private venture by Templeman Adams, three ****s skydiving in full naval uniform (?) to claim "Highest Dinner Party" record.
So now we know.
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ADAP2 is a little too high up the food chain. Try:
Lt Cdr Kevin Llewelyn
020 7453 6584
[email protected]
NATO sponsored air/sea exercises. RN High
Seas firing activities. JMC maritime
exercises. Military parachute training. RN
liaison on airspace management.
Sorry, just beaten to the thread. regardless, AUS are a good bunch of guys who can ofen give you more info if the NOTAM/AIS are unable to help.
Lt Cdr Kevin Llewelyn
020 7453 6584
[email protected]
NATO sponsored air/sea exercises. RN High
Seas firing activities. JMC maritime
exercises. Military parachute training. RN
liaison on airspace management.
Sorry, just beaten to the thread. regardless, AUS are a good bunch of guys who can ofen give you more info if the NOTAM/AIS are unable to help.
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Just spoke to a helpful guy on the desk at AUS.
They are aware of the issues and were already looking at improving the contact details provided in the notam in the near future.
Not sure why the nearby LARS were not aware of status.
Turn out to have been a private venture by Templeman Adams, three ****s skydiving in full naval uniform (?) to claim "Highest Dinner Party" record.
So now we know.
nicely out of phase!
They are aware of the issues and were already looking at improving the contact details provided in the notam in the near future.
Not sure why the nearby LARS were not aware of status.
Turn out to have been a private venture by Templeman Adams, three ****s skydiving in full naval uniform (?) to claim "Highest Dinner Party" record.
So now we know.
nicely out of phase!
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Apologies, duff contact info
AS2 is in fact
Dave Grove
020 7453 6582
[email protected]
Responsible for:- Civil air displays, air races, fly-ins, special flights. Sports parachuting, gliding, hanggliding, paragliding and microlight competitions. Civil calibrations and surveys. Avoidance of ground events and hazards. SSR exemptions. Deputy Manager.
I am indebted to AIS who kindly phoned me to point out the error.
Mike
AS2 is in fact
Dave Grove
020 7453 6582
[email protected]
Responsible for:- Civil air displays, air races, fly-ins, special flights. Sports parachuting, gliding, hanggliding, paragliding and microlight competitions. Civil calibrations and surveys. Avoidance of ground events and hazards. SSR exemptions. Deputy Manager.
I am indebted to AIS who kindly phoned me to point out the error.
Mike