We seem to be getting better
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Hi ST
It's precisely because NOTAM are for aviators that there are rules. If you found the NOTAM you got in France, Germany and the US all followed different local rules then you would be stuffed if you were an international pilot. The Brazilian pilot flying for an Americal Airline from Heathrow to Singapore needs to know what he is looking at. It's a global system, not just for local bimblers like me.
By all means drop an email to [email protected] suggesting they put in a/d names as well as the ICAO as a matter of course. If enough perople ask it will probably happen!
And if you are going to be near LHR with time to spare ask them if you can visit, or get a group together to go. They are very receptive to visitors and it's well worth the trip.
Mike
It's precisely because NOTAM are for aviators that there are rules. If you found the NOTAM you got in France, Germany and the US all followed different local rules then you would be stuffed if you were an international pilot. The Brazilian pilot flying for an Americal Airline from Heathrow to Singapore needs to know what he is looking at. It's a global system, not just for local bimblers like me.
By all means drop an email to [email protected] suggesting they put in a/d names as well as the ICAO as a matter of course. If enough perople ask it will probably happen!
And if you are going to be near LHR with time to spare ask them if you can visit, or get a group together to go. They are very receptive to visitors and it's well worth the trip.
Mike
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ShyTorque, not sure if this would help you or not, but my answer to the ICAO indicators/Danger area codes that appear in PIB's is to have a list of those which commonly occur in the areas I am interested in, at the beginning of the word processing document that I paste the PIB into. (I submit my request, copy the data into "Notepad", and copy it from there to my "Notam" document where I edit out the ones I am not interested in before printing.)
That way, when I saw that D215 was activated for yesterday, I just noted that it was Rutland water without having to search the chart for it, and added my note into the printout for my gliding club, which is in East Anglia:
NAVW: FROM 05/05/17 06:30 TO 05/05/25 19:00 D)MAY 17-20, 24, 25 0630-1900
E)DANGER AREA EG D215 Rutland Water. ACTIVATED F)SFC G)2400FT AMSL
I realise that people who might have flights to just about anywhere will not find this a useful tip.
My pet bugbears are the ones like this, where you can't easily tell where the damned thing is going to be [I added the bits in square brackets]:
NAVW: FROM 05/05/25 07:30 TO 05/05/25 17:30 MET RESEARCH FLIGHTS. CALLSIGN METMAN(1XBAE 146 ACFT). DURING PERIOD 0730-1130, ACFT OPERATING SFC TO FL150 ALONG TRACK (WAY POINTS) AS FOLLOWS - START PT CRANFIELD AD 5203N 00145W [SW towards] 5152N 00223W 5143N 00315W 5030N 00600W 5050N 00450W 5001N 00325W 5001N 00200W [then E and N towards] 5040N 00030E 5105N 00130E 5553N 00147E 5241N 00147E 5330N 00130E 5405N 00005E 5500N 00110W END PT NEWCASTLE AIRPORT. DURING PERIOD 1300-1730, [all far north] ACFT WILL OPERATE WI AREAS AS FOLLOWS. AREA D. 6100N 00400W 6100N 00000E 6000N 00000E 5700N 00500E 5500N 00500E 5500N 00400W 6100N 00400W. AND AREA E.[coming south again] 5500N 00200W 5500N 00500E 5230N 00245E 5230N 00000E 5500N 00200W. ACFT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO FLY QUADRANTAL FLS. ACTIVITY MAINLY UNDER LA TCC(MIL)/SCATCC(MIL) ATS. NO SONDES WILL BE DROPPED DURING THESE SORTIES. ALL OPS SUBJECT TO PRIOR ATC CLEARANCE. F)SFC G)FL150
(i) It's hard to appreciate what area is affected; answer, a large part of the UK.
(ii) Just what is a VFR pilot, glider or power, supposed to do? Keep clear of the whole designated area? Treat every unidentified aircraft as non-conforming to rules of the air? (How would one know what type to look for, even if one were an ace at aircraft recognition, which I ain't?)
Chris N.
Oops - I see the aircraft type BAE 146 was mentioned in the NOTAM I quoted - but the rest of my comments stand. Chris N.
That way, when I saw that D215 was activated for yesterday, I just noted that it was Rutland water without having to search the chart for it, and added my note into the printout for my gliding club, which is in East Anglia:
NAVW: FROM 05/05/17 06:30 TO 05/05/25 19:00 D)MAY 17-20, 24, 25 0630-1900
E)DANGER AREA EG D215 Rutland Water. ACTIVATED F)SFC G)2400FT AMSL
I realise that people who might have flights to just about anywhere will not find this a useful tip.
My pet bugbears are the ones like this, where you can't easily tell where the damned thing is going to be [I added the bits in square brackets]:
NAVW: FROM 05/05/25 07:30 TO 05/05/25 17:30 MET RESEARCH FLIGHTS. CALLSIGN METMAN(1XBAE 146 ACFT). DURING PERIOD 0730-1130, ACFT OPERATING SFC TO FL150 ALONG TRACK (WAY POINTS) AS FOLLOWS - START PT CRANFIELD AD 5203N 00145W [SW towards] 5152N 00223W 5143N 00315W 5030N 00600W 5050N 00450W 5001N 00325W 5001N 00200W [then E and N towards] 5040N 00030E 5105N 00130E 5553N 00147E 5241N 00147E 5330N 00130E 5405N 00005E 5500N 00110W END PT NEWCASTLE AIRPORT. DURING PERIOD 1300-1730, [all far north] ACFT WILL OPERATE WI AREAS AS FOLLOWS. AREA D. 6100N 00400W 6100N 00000E 6000N 00000E 5700N 00500E 5500N 00500E 5500N 00400W 6100N 00400W. AND AREA E.[coming south again] 5500N 00200W 5500N 00500E 5230N 00245E 5230N 00000E 5500N 00200W. ACFT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO FLY QUADRANTAL FLS. ACTIVITY MAINLY UNDER LA TCC(MIL)/SCATCC(MIL) ATS. NO SONDES WILL BE DROPPED DURING THESE SORTIES. ALL OPS SUBJECT TO PRIOR ATC CLEARANCE. F)SFC G)FL150
(i) It's hard to appreciate what area is affected; answer, a large part of the UK.
(ii) Just what is a VFR pilot, glider or power, supposed to do? Keep clear of the whole designated area? Treat every unidentified aircraft as non-conforming to rules of the air? (How would one know what type to look for, even if one were an ace at aircraft recognition, which I ain't?)
Chris N.
Oops - I see the aircraft type BAE 146 was mentioned in the NOTAM I quoted - but the rest of my comments stand. Chris N.
Last edited by chrisN; 26th May 2005 at 09:31.
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Beagle, I didn't like it initially but I am happy with it now (after reading the manual) That free guide with Pilot was good at demistifying it.
An up to date list on line has to be better then a week old list distributed by post.
Mike I do still wonder what sequence the NOTAMs come out in. I liked the way the old list was in latitude sequence. What drives the sequence of the AIS list?
An up to date list on line has to be better then a week old list distributed by post.
Mike I do still wonder what sequence the NOTAMs come out in. I liked the way the old list was in latitude sequence. What drives the sequence of the AIS list?
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Mike, I do fly to Heathrow on occasions, but arriving late evening and usually leaving before 0800 and with another 10 or 11 sectors a day it's highly unlikely I'll ever get time to stop anywhere for a social visit. We often miss breakfast and lunch as it is... 
If I had more time to spare I would be able to spend it decifering these awkward NOTAMS
I emailed them last year but although they said it was possible and would trial it, they didn't. I thought you had a direct input, hence this more recent post to yourself.
I cannot see why this seems so difficult; I'm NOT asking for any rules to be changed, as far as I can see, nor doing anything that would make life difficult for a foreign pilot, in fact the contrary.
For example:
"EGHD
RAC : FROM 05/03/29 19:00 TO 05/10/28 19:30 C1149/05
D)MON-FRI 1900-1930
E)ATZ/AD NOT AVBL EXCEPT IN EMERGENCY"
I need to know if this is likely to affect my 12 or so day's sectors, some of which I haven't yet planned because I don't know timings or route until later in the day, when I might be sitting in a field waiting for a phone call on where to go next.
If the NOTAM said this:
"EGHD
RAC : FROM 05/03/29 19:00 TO 05/10/28 19:30 C1149/05
D)MON-FRI 1900-1930
E) Plymouth ATZ/AD NOT AVBL EXCEPT IN EMERGENCY"
It would solve the problem. It's not asking the earth, is it?
If I had more time to spare I would be able to spend it decifering these awkward NOTAMS
I emailed them last year but although they said it was possible and would trial it, they didn't. I thought you had a direct input, hence this more recent post to yourself.
I cannot see why this seems so difficult; I'm NOT asking for any rules to be changed, as far as I can see, nor doing anything that would make life difficult for a foreign pilot, in fact the contrary.
For example:
"EGHD
RAC : FROM 05/03/29 19:00 TO 05/10/28 19:30 C1149/05
D)MON-FRI 1900-1930
E)ATZ/AD NOT AVBL EXCEPT IN EMERGENCY"
I need to know if this is likely to affect my 12 or so day's sectors, some of which I haven't yet planned because I don't know timings or route until later in the day, when I might be sitting in a field waiting for a phone call on where to go next.
If the NOTAM said this:
"EGHD
RAC : FROM 05/03/29 19:00 TO 05/10/28 19:30 C1149/05
D)MON-FRI 1900-1930
E) Plymouth ATZ/AD NOT AVBL EXCEPT IN EMERGENCY"
It would solve the problem. It's not asking the earth, is it?
Last edited by ShyTorque; 27th May 2005 at 20:54.
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Not sure whether there is any particular sequence to the order the en-route NOTAM appear in a Narrow Route Brief. It's unusual for me to get more than a page or two and it's easy to skip through those that are irrelevant.
The old briefs were replaced by the VFR FIR briefs, where things do arrive in a particular order. As it says at the head of the brief:-
Then at the start of the first section it says
At the start of the second it says
This is not unforunately what the GA pilot representatives asked for. We suggested a sort from south to north (which was the way the old briefs were sorted) and we did not ask it to be sectioned by type. What we ended up with was decided by John Gentleman of CAA DAP and Rod Dean of the CAA's GA Department (both no longer in post). The reason for sorting into two sections based on radius of influence is as follows:-
Imagine I am flying from Plymouth to Bournemouth. I check the section of the brief covering the latitudes within which my flight lies. However there are some NOTAM that affect the entire UK and which therefore have a geographic centre up in the Midlands. Because I have not checked this part of the brief I don't see them. Putting the large-area stuff in a separate section which is read in its entirety deals with the risk of not seeing it.
The problem with changing the sort is that it costs money. NATS have to pay Thales Information Systems to re-write the software. Having already done so and produced what the CAA asked for they won't be amenable to paying again and would probably require CAA to fund it, who, as is natural, will not want to, particularly if it implies an admission that they got it wrong in the first place.
ST
I agree it would be helpful for the a/d name to be included. While NATS staff are not permitted to identify themselves on web forums they do monitor them and some do post under pseudonyms. However the best way to get changes made is to send an email directly to [email protected]
A number of users making the same request will have more effect than simply feeding it through me. I have already mentioned it to them on your behalf.
Not sure whether there is any particular sequence to the order the en-route NOTAM appear in a Narrow Route Brief. It's unusual for me to get more than a page or two and it's easy to skip through those that are irrelevant.
The old briefs were replaced by the VFR FIR briefs, where things do arrive in a particular order. As it says at the head of the brief:-
THIS VFR ONLY AREA BRIEFING CONTAINS NOTAM SORTED BY RADIUS OF INFLUENCE INTO TWO SECTIONS. THE FIRST SECTION CONTAINS NOTAM WHICH HAVE A RADIUS OF INFLUENCE OF 30 NM AND LESS AND THE SECOND THOSE NOTAM WITH A RADIUS OF INFLUENCE GREATER THAN 30 NM.
BOTH SETS OF NOTAM MUST BE STUDIED CLOSELY BEFORE FLIGHT.
BOTH SETS OF NOTAM MUST BE STUDIED CLOSELY BEFORE FLIGHT.
THE FOLLOWING SECTION CONTAINS NOTAM WITH A RADIUS OF INFLUENCE OF 30 NM OR LESS, SORTED BY TYPE: AGA, COM, RAC, NAVW AND OTHER AND WITHIN EACH TYPE SORTED GEOGRAPHICALLY FROM NORTH TO SOUTH.
THE FOLLOWING SECTION CONTAINS NOTAM WITH A RADIUS OF INFLUENCE GREATER THAN 30 NM, SORTED BY TYPE: AGA, COM, RAC, NAVW AND OTHER AND WITHIN EACH TYPE SORTED GEOGRAPHICALLY FROM NORTH TO SOUTH.
Imagine I am flying from Plymouth to Bournemouth. I check the section of the brief covering the latitudes within which my flight lies. However there are some NOTAM that affect the entire UK and which therefore have a geographic centre up in the Midlands. Because I have not checked this part of the brief I don't see them. Putting the large-area stuff in a separate section which is read in its entirety deals with the risk of not seeing it.
The problem with changing the sort is that it costs money. NATS have to pay Thales Information Systems to re-write the software. Having already done so and produced what the CAA asked for they won't be amenable to paying again and would probably require CAA to fund it, who, as is natural, will not want to, particularly if it implies an admission that they got it wrong in the first place.
ST
I agree it would be helpful for the a/d name to be included. While NATS staff are not permitted to identify themselves on web forums they do monitor them and some do post under pseudonyms. However the best way to get changes made is to send an email directly to [email protected]
A number of users making the same request will have more effect than simply feeding it through me. I have already mentioned it to them on your behalf.
Avoid imitations
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Mike, thanks. I will try them again, referring to this thread.
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Unfortunately not better today, tried logging in several times and get taken straight to an error page and unable to exit from it
Have sent an email to ais supervisor to let them know
Have sent an email to ais supervisor to let them know
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Strange that it did not work. I got in today, did a narrow route briefing at 10:06 UTC, no problem.
Just tried again at 11:23 UTC, and while it seemd a bit slow, I got in again.
I wonder if the whole site went down, or if it just happens when too many people try to access it at once?
Chris N.
Just tried again at 11:23 UTC, and while it seemd a bit slow, I got in again.
I wonder if the whole site went down, or if it just happens when too many people try to access it at once?
Chris N.
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Well said Mike.
I personally think it is very useful and you should be congratulated on the work that has been put into improving the service.
Personally I use a combination of the AIS site (narrow route brief) Notam pro (which plots pins on a map for nav warnings) and the freephone line.
And I seem to know more of what's going off around the area the some of the flying club instructors!!
Recent quote- "What time is the Lanc flying by?"
reply from QFI "What Lanc fly-by?"
I personally think it is very useful and you should be congratulated on the work that has been put into improving the service.
Personally I use a combination of the AIS site (narrow route brief) Notam pro (which plots pins on a map for nav warnings) and the freephone line.
And I seem to know more of what's going off around the area the some of the flying club instructors!!
Recent quote- "What time is the Lanc flying by?"
reply from QFI "What Lanc fly-by?"
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Problems with AIS and AOL?
Having continual problems today not able to log on, ended up chatting with helpful and friendly people at AIS (duty supervisor). Their thoughts seem to suggest that because I use AOL (at home) to access AIS the problem is in a restriction of java scripting on AOL.
Now I'm sure the more computer literate will be able to configure my computer and AOL to talk to AIS (help needed here ). Any other AOL users have problems?
Now what would the CAA have to say if my excuse was: 'well my lord, I did spend four hours trying to get a NOTAM brief, but because my internet provider and AIS don't seem to like each other I gave up and just went flying anyway'
Having continual problems today not able to log on, ended up chatting with helpful and friendly people at AIS (duty supervisor). Their thoughts seem to suggest that because I use AOL (at home) to access AIS the problem is in a restriction of java scripting on AOL.
Now I'm sure the more computer literate will be able to configure my computer and AOL to talk to AIS (help needed here
). Any other AOL users have problems?Now what would the CAA have to say if my excuse was: 'well my lord, I did spend four hours trying to get a NOTAM brief, but because my internet provider and AIS don't seem to like each other I gave up and just went flying anyway'
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No reason why one should not download Internet Explorer from here .
My dear lady wife uses a Mac and AOL but finds that using Internet Explorer rather than the AOL browser deals with an awful lot of issues.
Mike
My dear lady wife uses a Mac and AOL but finds that using Internet Explorer rather than the AOL browser deals with an awful lot of issues.
Mike
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Mike, thanks, I can revert to Internet Explorer, but it is only for the AIS site, no other gives a problem.
Have fired a broadside at AOL, for a few weeks ago it worked fine, now with the latest (enforced) upgrade from AOL its not working. Any other AOL users see the problem, can solve it easier than just going to Internet Explorer?
How often do you get together with AIS to address problems and give advice? It seems you're up against some intransigence from the other side in getting them to realise that a system that's not intuitive isn't good, and in some cases can be seen as having serious flight safety issues (ie lack of ease in seeing the relevant Notams easily).
Cheers, H
Have fired a broadside at AOL, for a few weeks ago it worked fine, now with the latest (enforced) upgrade from AOL its not working. Any other AOL users see the problem, can solve it easier than just going to Internet Explorer?
How often do you get together with AIS to address problems and give advice? It seems you're up against some intransigence from the other side in getting them to realise that a system that's not intuitive isn't good, and in some cases can be seen as having serious flight safety issues (ie lack of ease in seeing the relevant Notams easily).
Cheers, H
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TD&H
The problem seems to be with AOL. AIS advise that they have had a number of AOL users today reporting problems. Nothing has changed on the AIS site, it's the AOL browser upgrade that seems to be the culprit.
In answer to your question, I probably have some contact with AIS on a weekly basis.
It's an interesting situation. Most pilots take a very parochial view without realising the briefing service is provided as part of the UK's obligations under the International Convention on Civil Aviation and has to conform to the standards laid down by ICAO. An understanding of the standards framework within which it operates is a great help. Unfortunately ICAO does not publish its documentation on the Web but the two main docments are Annex 15 to the Convention and ICAO Document 8126, The Aeronautical Infrormation Services Manual.
As you know, it's a free service, so the scope for spending money on alterations or the provision of services over and above what is required by the Convention is limited. Of course if we were all to pay for it that might be different!
Austria uses the same software for a paid for service. You can see their implementation here and also have a free trial. As you will see they also include the Flight Plan Filing option.
In my experience the site does a very good job, providing the user takes the trouble to understand how it works.
Mike
The problem seems to be with AOL. AIS advise that they have had a number of AOL users today reporting problems. Nothing has changed on the AIS site, it's the AOL browser upgrade that seems to be the culprit.
In answer to your question, I probably have some contact with AIS on a weekly basis.
It's an interesting situation. Most pilots take a very parochial view without realising the briefing service is provided as part of the UK's obligations under the International Convention on Civil Aviation and has to conform to the standards laid down by ICAO. An understanding of the standards framework within which it operates is a great help. Unfortunately ICAO does not publish its documentation on the Web but the two main docments are Annex 15 to the Convention and ICAO Document 8126, The Aeronautical Infrormation Services Manual.
As you know, it's a free service, so the scope for spending money on alterations or the provision of services over and above what is required by the Convention is limited. Of course if we were all to pay for it that might be different!
Austria uses the same software for a paid for service. You can see their implementation here and also have a free trial. As you will see they also include the Flight Plan Filing option.
In my experience the site does a very good job, providing the user takes the trouble to understand how it works.
Mike
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Mike
Thanks for your comments. I used the AIS advice to clear my cache (didn't even know I had one!!) and that seemed to solve the problem.
Something I wonder about with the people who give feedback in a committee (or whatever is used to chat with AIS) is that most will be fairly experienced users so they will have gained knowledge of how to use the system just by repetative trial and error. How about getting an occasional user invited to use the website in front of the 'committee/AIS' to let them see how they get on (only using intuition and the webpage help pages)? That might give a more realistic view of where problems occur. A new PPL, but not a young computer whiz, an older person who uses the 'puter and internet but without really understanding how.
Even allowing for the limited funds and even more limited willingness to spend them, that sort of feedback might emphasise where the most important and often least expensive modifications can be done. EG a few more and relevant help pages.
Cheers, H
Thanks for your comments. I used the AIS advice to clear my cache (didn't even know I had one!!) and that seemed to solve the problem.
Something I wonder about with the people who give feedback in a committee (or whatever is used to chat with AIS) is that most will be fairly experienced users so they will have gained knowledge of how to use the system just by repetative trial and error. How about getting an occasional user invited to use the website in front of the 'committee/AIS' to let them see how they get on (only using intuition and the webpage help pages)? That might give a more realistic view of where problems occur. A new PPL, but not a young computer whiz, an older person who uses the 'puter and internet but without really understanding how.
Even allowing for the limited funds and even more limited willingness to spend them, that sort of feedback might emphasise where the most important and often least expensive modifications can be done. EG a few more and relevant help pages.
Cheers, H
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The help pages are something I have recently had words about. Not too long ago they "simplified" them and as a result took out some of the stuff.
Believe it or not I have been unable to find anywhere on CAA or AIS an explanation of what is and is not valid in the route box of an ICAO Flight PLan. The Safety Sense leaflet on VFR Flight Plans doesn't tell you. It used to be in the AIS help file but last time I looked it had disappeared.
There has been quite a lot of effort to help educate users. There have been articles in Flyer and in General Aviation, the AOPA magazine. Pilot published a users guide and the next edition of Popular Flying, the PFA magazine will also carry an article on how to get the best from the site.
In adidtion to this Pilot sponsored me to be on their stand at Fly!, Aerofair and the PFA Rally last year to help and demonstrate how to use the site and I have also presented at West London Aero Club, in central London, and at AIS during user visits.
AIS are happy to have visitors and if a group from your flying club want to go, just speak to them. They are very approachable, as you have found.
Mike
Believe it or not I have been unable to find anywhere on CAA or AIS an explanation of what is and is not valid in the route box of an ICAO Flight PLan. The Safety Sense leaflet on VFR Flight Plans doesn't tell you. It used to be in the AIS help file but last time I looked it had disappeared.
There has been quite a lot of effort to help educate users. There have been articles in Flyer and in General Aviation, the AOPA magazine. Pilot published a users guide and the next edition of Popular Flying, the PFA magazine will also carry an article on how to get the best from the site.
In adidtion to this Pilot sponsored me to be on their stand at Fly!, Aerofair and the PFA Rally last year to help and demonstrate how to use the site and I have also presented at West London Aero Club, in central London, and at AIS during user visits.
AIS are happy to have visitors and if a group from your flying club want to go, just speak to them. They are very approachable, as you have found.
Mike
