Homebuild Aircraft
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 419
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From: Westward TV
Homebuild Aircraft
Peeps,
My day job is fantastic. I work two weeks on, one week off. However, the down side is all my buddies work three weeks on and no weeks off. Problem is I am bored poopless during my week off. As a distraction, I have been looking into a small (ahem!) hobby to keep myself busy.
Which brought me to looking at building a kit aircraft. I really like the idea of something that goes like stink and have found two type aircraft on the net
here and here
Now, both are rather nice to look at but how in heck do I go about building one of these! The kit pricing on one of these is around the thirty grand ($US). I understand that there is also the sudries of seats, avionics, trim, wiring, paint, etc, etc. So I was wondering if somebody who has completed a homebuild aircraft could point me in the direction of some costings for these bits. I know that avionics is difficult to cost, so any advice here is appreciated.
Second, is the sourcing of an engine and prop. How in hecks name to I find a lycoming 180hp donk! I mean it's not something you see in the back of exchange and mart. A reconditioned engine (zero timed as well) would be cheaper, but are these allowed in newly build aircraft. And a prop would be nice too. As is painfully obvious, my experience in limited in this area, so again, any help and comments in the area of powerplant/prop would be mucho appreciated.
Sorry to blether on aimlessly, and thanks in advance to anyone who can help
ithangyouall
My day job is fantastic. I work two weeks on, one week off. However, the down side is all my buddies work three weeks on and no weeks off. Problem is I am bored poopless during my week off. As a distraction, I have been looking into a small (ahem!) hobby to keep myself busy.
Which brought me to looking at building a kit aircraft. I really like the idea of something that goes like stink and have found two type aircraft on the net
here and here
Now, both are rather nice to look at but how in heck do I go about building one of these! The kit pricing on one of these is around the thirty grand ($US). I understand that there is also the sudries of seats, avionics, trim, wiring, paint, etc, etc. So I was wondering if somebody who has completed a homebuild aircraft could point me in the direction of some costings for these bits. I know that avionics is difficult to cost, so any advice here is appreciated.
Second, is the sourcing of an engine and prop. How in hecks name to I find a lycoming 180hp donk! I mean it's not something you see in the back of exchange and mart. A reconditioned engine (zero timed as well) would be cheaper, but are these allowed in newly build aircraft. And a prop would be nice too. As is painfully obvious, my experience in limited in this area, so again, any help and comments in the area of powerplant/prop would be mucho appreciated.
Sorry to blether on aimlessly, and thanks in advance to anyone who can help
ithangyouall
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,198
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From: South Norfolk, England
I've not enough time to answer in full right now, but take a look at the PFA website for the answers to your questions.
SS
SS
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,297
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From: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
GHb, I can't comment on any technical aspects but thought you might appreciate a photo of the lovely Glasair which took part in the 2003 RFDS Outback Air Safari. It was built at Jandakot in West Australia. The colour hasn't quite come out true as it was a beautiful metallic purple and white, not blue.
The photo was taken at Kununurra and the aircraft was the envy of many of the competitors, even the Safari Boss was known to drool over it!
The photo was taken at Kununurra and the aircraft was the envy of many of the competitors, even the Safari Boss was known to drool over it!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 211
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From: kent
GH
If you are building in the UK, neither of your choices seem to be approved by the PFA at present. Better to choose one that is, if you don't want the hassle of getting the first of a type approved. Full list of approved types at http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_techn...fttypelist.pdf
If you are building in the UK, neither of your choices seem to be approved by the PFA at present. Better to choose one that is, if you don't want the hassle of getting the first of a type approved. Full list of approved types at http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_techn...fttypelist.pdf
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,042
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From: Oxford
There's a book I bought in the states called Kitplane Construction. It goes over most of the basics - not enough to know everything about how to do the job, but certainly enough to give you an idea of what's involved.
It put me off, for the moment at least... my technical skills are not legendary...
Tim
It put me off, for the moment at least... my technical skills are not legendary...
Tim
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
Tim,
What type of homebuilt was the book referring to? Did it include composite/carbonfibre construction? A lot of these new kits (Glasair, Ban-Bi, etc) come with ready-assembled wings, fuse etc... it can be a lot easier then you think apparently. But not as easy as Airfixing it and bolting on the engine. I'll do a high-perf in in the next 5 years or so, and my tech skills aren't at all great - because it's a lot of fun to learn.
Conf
What type of homebuilt was the book referring to? Did it include composite/carbonfibre construction? A lot of these new kits (Glasair, Ban-Bi, etc) come with ready-assembled wings, fuse etc... it can be a lot easier then you think apparently. But not as easy as Airfixing it and bolting on the engine. I'll do a high-perf in in the next 5 years or so, and my tech skills aren't at all great - because it's a lot of fun to learn.
Conf
to sail beyond the sunset
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 81
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From: Dublin
Confab,
I doubt if the IAA would create problems with the Glasair if the PFA in the UK have approved it.
By all accounts the Airworthiness guys in the IAA are exceedingly reasonable and helpful, as opposed to certain other departments there. ;-)
TD
I doubt if the IAA would create problems with the Glasair if the PFA in the UK have approved it.
By all accounts the Airworthiness guys in the IAA are exceedingly reasonable and helpful, as opposed to certain other departments there. ;-)
TD
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
From: Burgess Hill, UK
Gus,
as someone else said, best chose an already approved design. The GP4 certainly isnt approved. The Glasair III isnt PFA approved as its outside the PFA remit- too powerful engine. But a couple have been built on a CAA permit. Probably much more expensive to get done under the CAA.
The Glasair II is a PFA approved design though, quite a few flying in the UK.
Other fast aircraft are any of the Vans RV range- over 100 of these flying in the UK now, or Lancair. slightly slower, the MCR01 or Europa.
Getting engines is easy, many kit manufacturers have deals going with the engine manufacturers- Vans aircraft are the biggest customer worldwide for Lycoming O-360 engines and do a good deal for Vans builders. New Glasair presumably have a similar deal. Props similarly can be sourced thru the kit suppliers. Otherwise there are plenty of companies in the UK, US and elsewhere who will sell you engines, props and anything else you need. Some also sell overhauled or just "used" stuff
For the UK the best place to look is in the PFA magazine, some info also in the adverts in the other flying magazines, Pilot etc.
Also get yourself a copy of "Trade a Plane" which is a US paper which is full of aircraft/engines for sale and adverts from all of the major companies involved.
Come along to the PFA Rally (or Flying For Fun as its now called) July 1-3 at Kemble. This is the largest GA event in Europe and you will see examples of most homebuilt aircraft available in the UK flying in and exhibitors selling most of the kits and equipment that is available
good luck!
as someone else said, best chose an already approved design. The GP4 certainly isnt approved. The Glasair III isnt PFA approved as its outside the PFA remit- too powerful engine. But a couple have been built on a CAA permit. Probably much more expensive to get done under the CAA.
The Glasair II is a PFA approved design though, quite a few flying in the UK.
Other fast aircraft are any of the Vans RV range- over 100 of these flying in the UK now, or Lancair. slightly slower, the MCR01 or Europa.
Getting engines is easy, many kit manufacturers have deals going with the engine manufacturers- Vans aircraft are the biggest customer worldwide for Lycoming O-360 engines and do a good deal for Vans builders. New Glasair presumably have a similar deal. Props similarly can be sourced thru the kit suppliers. Otherwise there are plenty of companies in the UK, US and elsewhere who will sell you engines, props and anything else you need. Some also sell overhauled or just "used" stuff
For the UK the best place to look is in the PFA magazine, some info also in the adverts in the other flying magazines, Pilot etc.
Also get yourself a copy of "Trade a Plane" which is a US paper which is full of aircraft/engines for sale and adverts from all of the major companies involved.
Come along to the PFA Rally (or Flying For Fun as its now called) July 1-3 at Kemble. This is the largest GA event in Europe and you will see examples of most homebuilt aircraft available in the UK flying in and exhibitors selling most of the kits and equipment that is available
good luck!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 99
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From: belgium
I own a Glasair and a friend is building one, this is certainly not an easy kit. You can however order a fastbuild kit which costs more but cuts building time. Expect for a Glasair min. 3000hrs buildtime. Cost with a new engine-prop will be around 100.000USD. If your building in Europe add tax-transport-importduties.
If you have a look at the newglasair website it lists the prices for all the bits you need
Rgds,
deing
If you have a look at the newglasair website it lists the prices for all the bits you need
Rgds,
deing
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
Have heard great things about the RV range, however noticing what can be done on a Rotax 80/100hp with a composite airframe (145KTAS/1000nm+) the RVs get second place according to a certain UK aviation magazine - and I tend to agree.
Having said that, the RVs have distinct advantages - frog (pop rivet rivet - get it?
) construction, some of them are aerobatic (+6/-3), and the RV4 (I think) can be converted into the Harmon Rocket, a rather fast & manouverable aerobat with better capabilities. Currently being evaluated by the PFA I believe.
Personally I think the great thing about homebuilds are the ability to customise and the ease of finance - you only pay for what you're building at any one time - and cheaper maintenance is a huge benefit. Now, add the GAMI PRISM system to that and... woohoo!
Confab
Having said that, the RVs have distinct advantages - frog (pop rivet rivet - get it?
) construction, some of them are aerobatic (+6/-3), and the RV4 (I think) can be converted into the Harmon Rocket, a rather fast & manouverable aerobat with better capabilities. Currently being evaluated by the PFA I believe.Personally I think the great thing about homebuilds are the ability to customise and the ease of finance - you only pay for what you're building at any one time - and cheaper maintenance is a huge benefit. Now, add the GAMI PRISM system to that and... woohoo!
Confab
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,966
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From: Norfolk
Confabulous - just to clarify....
RV's are not pop-rivetted together. Rivets are driven in and formed, either with a rivet squeezer or a rivet gun and dolly.
I would caution against making any mods (customisation) as this all needs to be assessed by the PFA and does require serious resource on their part.
And if you do build something - do try and build it as light as you can. I am using 6-32 c/sunk screws on the panelling of my second build as they are lighter than the 8-32 dome heads on my first. Much more work but lighter and more streamlined!
Stik
RV's are not pop-rivetted together. Rivets are driven in and formed, either with a rivet squeezer or a rivet gun and dolly.
I would caution against making any mods (customisation) as this all needs to be assessed by the PFA and does require serious resource on their part.
And if you do build something - do try and build it as light as you can. I am using 6-32 c/sunk screws on the panelling of my second build as they are lighter than the 8-32 dome heads on my first. Much more work but lighter and more streamlined!
Stik
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
RV's are not pop-rivetted together. Rivets are driven in and formed, either with a rivet squeezer or a rivet gun and dolly.
Conf
PS: From other threads, I take it you're scratch-building the a/c from plans? If so, you have my respect!
Last edited by Confabulous; 4th May 2005 at 10:53.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
Metal aircraft require 10000’s of rivets, and it is hard getting compound curves.
“Traditional” Composite requires wet lay and can cause an allergic reaction.
Carbon composite is an alternative to both. My MCR 01 has about 1./2 L of resin all in. You can cut and trim Carbon very easily with a Dremal, but you must use a mask and vacuum up the dust after. It has the advantages of Metal in that it is a good conductor for electrical purposes. Add to all this the fact that it is much lighter for the same strength, and you have the best compromise. The down side, it is quite expensive, but an MCR 01 VLA will cruse at 155kn on 100hp, and a typical Vans will need 160 hp Lyk costing £8k more and with 7 GPH fuel burn against 3.5 for the Rotax 912.
Rod1
“Traditional” Composite requires wet lay and can cause an allergic reaction.
Carbon composite is an alternative to both. My MCR 01 has about 1./2 L of resin all in. You can cut and trim Carbon very easily with a Dremal, but you must use a mask and vacuum up the dust after. It has the advantages of Metal in that it is a good conductor for electrical purposes. Add to all this the fact that it is much lighter for the same strength, and you have the best compromise. The down side, it is quite expensive, but an MCR 01 VLA will cruse at 155kn on 100hp, and a typical Vans will need 160 hp Lyk costing £8k more and with 7 GPH fuel burn against 3.5 for the Rotax 912.
Rod1
