ADF obsolete ?
ADF obsolete ?
Join Date: Oct 2003
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NDB approaches really can't be obsolete can they? There are many published NDB approaches throughout Europe and the rest of the world. If they were obsolete don't you think we would have been told to stop using them?
Cirrus like many aircraft manufacturers have decided to do away with the ADF as many approaches in the USA can now be GPS where they were previously NDB only. That is not the case in Europe surely?
Regards,
Chopperpilot 47
Cirrus like many aircraft manufacturers have decided to do away with the ADF as many approaches in the USA can now be GPS where they were previously NDB only. That is not the case in Europe surely?
Regards,
Chopperpilot 47
Radio equipment requirements remain up to the state in whose airspace you are flying, not EASA. Many if not most European states, for example the UK, retain a requirement for an ADF for IFR in controlled airspace. Thus far from being obsolete, it is practically essential.
Whether or not it remains so when EASA gets its hands on Ops is another matter...
Whether or not it remains so when EASA gets its hands on Ops is another matter...
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NDBs are cheap and useful. I use Henton frequently for routeing to the west of Luton, in order to avoid Dunstable and Halton, which is becoming increasingly active. We atDenham also have Chilton on our doorstep, also very useful as it marks (approximately) the northern boundary of the Heathrow Zone.
When we bought our PA28 (seriously 2nd hand) it lacked an ADF so we fitted one, mostly for our IMC rating work but also because we recognised its usefulness, despite all the well-known deficiencies of the system. OK OK you can't use them at night, on the coast, when there are thunderstorms about and you have to work out for yourself what radial you're on, no distance info etc etc. Apart from that!!!
Cheers,
The Odd One
When we bought our PA28 (seriously 2nd hand) it lacked an ADF so we fitted one, mostly for our IMC rating work but also because we recognised its usefulness, despite all the well-known deficiencies of the system. OK OK you can't use them at night, on the coast, when there are thunderstorms about and you have to work out for yourself what radial you're on, no distance info etc etc. Apart from that!!!
Cheers,
The Odd One
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It'll be around a while yet!!! Particularly so in the UK GA environment.
How else would you fly an IAP to 03 at Biggin, 06 at Southend, 04 at Cranfield, 05 at Cambridge, Oxford, Gloucester etc....etc....? (Or any other aerodrome when the ILS is u/s)
I'm a firm believer that GPS is the way forward, even to the point that a Pilot III velcro'd to the coaming and a Maglite is probably a safer 'approach aid' than an ADF at night near a CB!!! The fact remains, that NDB will continue to have it's uses probably indefinitely and while it does, it'll still stay in the IR syllabus and on the 'mandatory' equipment list.
How else would you fly an IAP to 03 at Biggin, 06 at Southend, 04 at Cranfield, 05 at Cambridge, Oxford, Gloucester etc....etc....? (Or any other aerodrome when the ILS is u/s)
I'm a firm believer that GPS is the way forward, even to the point that a Pilot III velcro'd to the coaming and a Maglite is probably a safer 'approach aid' than an ADF at night near a CB!!! The fact remains, that NDB will continue to have it's uses probably indefinitely and while it does, it'll still stay in the IR syllabus and on the 'mandatory' equipment list.
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For those of us flying VFR ... quite a few little airfields have NDBs, which I find quite useful given how hard I find it to see an airfield amongst lots of other fields from 1500' under someone else's airspace (or cloud of course). So, regardless of how useful an ADF is for instrument flying I quite like having one for visual navigation.
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GTW
I agree entirely if one already has a good working ADF; however an ADF is about £3000 + installation and for that you could get a really excellent panel mounted (not "IFR") GPS. There's no doubt in my mind which of the two will be better and safer for navigation.
If I had to spend £3000 on a backup for a GPS (GPS being the primary nav device as it should be) I would spend it on an RMI.
It seems a very arrogant attitude (by the vendor) if the original poster is correct. It is very probably legal (amazing as this may sound) to fly an NDB procedure without an ADF if it is in Class G, but that's rather limiting!! Would you pay £400-500k for a plane which right now is definitely illegal in most relevant circumstances in Class D and above?
I agree entirely if one already has a good working ADF; however an ADF is about £3000 + installation and for that you could get a really excellent panel mounted (not "IFR") GPS. There's no doubt in my mind which of the two will be better and safer for navigation.
If I had to spend £3000 on a backup for a GPS (GPS being the primary nav device as it should be) I would spend it on an RMI.
It seems a very arrogant attitude (by the vendor) if the original poster is correct. It is very probably legal (amazing as this may sound) to fly an NDB procedure without an ADF if it is in Class G, but that's rather limiting!! Would you pay £400-500k for a plane which right now is definitely illegal in most relevant circumstances in Class D and above?
How dare anyone say the ADF isn't useful! I use mine all the time...
1. It has a handy dial with the numbers 0-35 round it, perfect for noting your assigned altitude, or for counting landings when doing pattern work
2. Mine has a nifty built in timer which is by a long way the easiest to operate of the half dozen or so timers on the panel
3. It also has a "time since the avionics master was turned on" timer which is perfect (a) for logging total flight time and (b) for the times when I forget to write down engine start time until later, which is to say 90% of the time
4. Tuned to the 50KW AM station a couple of miles from my airport, it points to the airport (or close enough) from just about anywhere within 300 miles, at altitude, which is reassuring if not terribly useful
5. It makes a decent AM radio although I rarely use it for that
6. Not exactly "useful", but you can use it to fly strange things called NDB approaches which while utterly useless in practice (in the US they all have GPS overlays anyway which have the great advantage that there is a reasonable chance you'll find a runway at the end of them) certainly makes for some fun practice, especially in actual with a crosswind. Sadly the FAA is decomissioning most of the NDB approaches close to me.
So, all in all, one of the most useful boxes in the plane. Not much use for real-life approaches though.
n5296S
1. It has a handy dial with the numbers 0-35 round it, perfect for noting your assigned altitude, or for counting landings when doing pattern work
2. Mine has a nifty built in timer which is by a long way the easiest to operate of the half dozen or so timers on the panel
3. It also has a "time since the avionics master was turned on" timer which is perfect (a) for logging total flight time and (b) for the times when I forget to write down engine start time until later, which is to say 90% of the time
4. Tuned to the 50KW AM station a couple of miles from my airport, it points to the airport (or close enough) from just about anywhere within 300 miles, at altitude, which is reassuring if not terribly useful
5. It makes a decent AM radio although I rarely use it for that
6. Not exactly "useful", but you can use it to fly strange things called NDB approaches which while utterly useless in practice (in the US they all have GPS overlays anyway which have the great advantage that there is a reasonable chance you'll find a runway at the end of them) certainly makes for some fun practice, especially in actual with a crosswind. Sadly the FAA is decomissioning most of the NDB approaches close to me.
So, all in all, one of the most useful boxes in the plane. Not much use for real-life approaches though.
n5296S
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To be fair, the TwinStar has a remote ADF option, which most European customers will go for. The aircraft is pretty much an integrated package, and it's nuts to need an NDB in it - the aircraft is all electric, so if the power goes, the NDB goes with it.
Besides, the EASA has certified the TwinStar without the NDB, so it's perfectly legal - saying it's arrogant is a bit like HMV dropping cassettes and sticking with CDs - it's new technology - and progress. NDB is much less reliable then the combination of GPS Primary and VOR.
Besides, the EASA has certified the TwinStar without the NDB, so it's perfectly legal - saying it's arrogant is a bit like HMV dropping cassettes and sticking with CDs - it's new technology - and progress. NDB is much less reliable then the combination of GPS Primary and VOR.
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I am suffering withdrawal symptoms now I no longer have an ADF. I have had to add an audio in to my intercom on my new aircraft so I can listen to test match special on R4 LW!
Rod1
Rod1
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I think the point is that while they are not obsolete from a IMC/IR training point of view, they are for most practical purposes. Once GPS ownership hits 90% or so, they will go the way of video and audio cassettes.
If you don't think so, look to the US, aren't the Yanks going through a programme of decommissioning theirs?
If you don't think so, look to the US, aren't the Yanks going through a programme of decommissioning theirs?
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I recently hired a Brand new 2005 C172sp in Florida fully IFR certified and guess what it had no ADF nor DME!
What it did have was dual IFR certified GPS with nexrad/stormscope/traffic etc etc.
Is this the way we will go?
What it did have was dual IFR certified GPS with nexrad/stormscope/traffic etc etc.
Is this the way we will go?
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I know it applies to commercial ops however JAR-OPS 1 is to be amended to make an ADF optional..........provided that it is not required to make instrument approaches.
Remember that one can fly IFR in a piper cub in Class G with no navaids........there is always the SRA if things don't go as planned
Regards,
DFC
Remember that one can fly IFR in a piper cub in Class G with no navaids........there is always the SRA if things don't go as planned
Regards,
DFC
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Whilst there are a huge number of problems with NDB's and their use, for their cost Vs. benefit, they are pretty good things.
I would rather have them than nothing at all. Using them is a pretty good skills and awareness excercise aswell.
I would rather have them than nothing at all. Using them is a pretty good skills and awareness excercise aswell.
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n5296s,
To your excellent list I'd add lightning strike detection.
Chilli Monster,
So true, but you can also always spot those that have never flown within CONUS
Also an ADF tuned into a distant radio station will be more sensitive to heading changes than a compass if you lose all your gyros in a cloud, but then that's why we all carry a hand held GPS as backup, isn't it
To your excellent list I'd add lightning strike detection.
Chilli Monster,
So true, but you can also always spot those that have never flown within CONUS
Also an ADF tuned into a distant radio station will be more sensitive to heading changes than a compass if you lose all your gyros in a cloud, but then that's why we all carry a hand held GPS as backup, isn't it
