Log book difficulties
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Log book difficulties
Am I able to fill in a new log book from scratch? The problem I have is my current log book is such a mess. I began with it when I started training for my PPL a few years ago. I initially trained at one club and then moved to another and at both these the instructors did not deem it necessary to counter sign my flights. Is this a necessity? I then went to a flight training school where they gave me another new log book to fill in which was never signed either. Additionally, i was presented with a printed log book at the end of my course which had been completed by the school. And here's the frustrating part - there are some differences between them!! Can you see the dilemma? I would very much like, therefore, to put the flights into a new log book. And, if i can, am I supposed to believe the school's record of my flights? or my own?
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if the log book has only your writing in it and no signing or rating sign offs then go ahead. Non of my flights were counter signed; i only have had aero's sign off's and end of PPL training sign off to say that my log book tallied with my instructor and that all my training had been carried out at my club.
Log books are meant to be messy. It's what tip-x was invented for!
Log books are meant to be messy. It's what tip-x was invented for!
Firstly, I'd suggest going and speaking to the second school - there is clearly a difference in perception there, that needs clearing up. As for the reasons - there could be many, and I'd hesitate to guess.
I've flown with a lot of instructors who don't seem to feel it necessary to sign for flights in a logbook, ultimately for issue of your licence, the important thing is that they've signed on the application form to CAA saying that you've done enough hours to get your licence. A discrepancy between their records and yours *might* be relevant if one shows you've got enough hours and the other doesn't, but otherwise it shouldn't matter too much.
Changing logbooks - it's perfectly legit to buy a new and posher logbook (there have been many threads on Pprune on preferences) and copy up. BUT, because it's not your original record, keep that safe in case anybody ever asks for reference to it. I did this myself after I left the UAS and started civvie flying, and later when I started doing some military flying again for a few years I kept a duplicate record in my "posh" civvie logbook - CAA did need to see my original signed UAS logbook for my first PPL(A) application, but that's the only time anybody's ever asked to see it.
G
I've flown with a lot of instructors who don't seem to feel it necessary to sign for flights in a logbook, ultimately for issue of your licence, the important thing is that they've signed on the application form to CAA saying that you've done enough hours to get your licence. A discrepancy between their records and yours *might* be relevant if one shows you've got enough hours and the other doesn't, but otherwise it shouldn't matter too much.
Changing logbooks - it's perfectly legit to buy a new and posher logbook (there have been many threads on Pprune on preferences) and copy up. BUT, because it's not your original record, keep that safe in case anybody ever asks for reference to it. I did this myself after I left the UAS and started civvie flying, and later when I started doing some military flying again for a few years I kept a duplicate record in my "posh" civvie logbook - CAA did need to see my original signed UAS logbook for my first PPL(A) application, but that's the only time anybody's ever asked to see it.
G
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Not much to add here except...
In the US, the instructor signs off on every flight that is taken with...him in an instructional role. Sig to include cert no and exp date. I would assume it's the same where you are, which makes me wonder why they didn't sign it.
As for Tip-x, My understanding is that if you change a legal document, you have to cross it out and can't use correction fluid. Not that it really matters of course.
In the US, the instructor signs off on every flight that is taken with...him in an instructional role. Sig to include cert no and exp date. I would assume it's the same where you are, which makes me wonder why they didn't sign it.
As for Tip-x, My understanding is that if you change a legal document, you have to cross it out and can't use correction fluid. Not that it really matters of course.
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At some clubs the instructors don't sign log books for each flight - this does seem unnecessary when each flight is written up in the student's records ... unless you're planning to start learning at a dodgy club that might go bust at any moment and continue your training elsewhere, of course, in which case access to your records might be difficult when you change clubs.
When I applied for my PPL my own log book differed from the club records ... my log book showed that I was 5 minutes short of the required instrument flying time, the club records showed that I had exactly the right amount of instrument flying time ... so clearly the club records must have been right and I corrected my log book to match
I do get my log book signed when I fly in strange places whilst on holiday - this is a requirement of my "home" club for proving currency, but in practice they take my word for the currencty and never look at the log book and I just collect these signatures and/or rubber stamps as souvenirs.
When I applied for my PPL my own log book differed from the club records ... my log book showed that I was 5 minutes short of the required instrument flying time, the club records showed that I had exactly the right amount of instrument flying time ... so clearly the club records must have been right and I corrected my log book to match
I do get my log book signed when I fly in strange places whilst on holiday - this is a requirement of my "home" club for proving currency, but in practice they take my word for the currencty and never look at the log book and I just collect these signatures and/or rubber stamps as souvenirs.
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Please don't take this as definitive, but I was under the impression that all logbook entries (in CAA world at least) were accepted on the "honour" system.
Current CAA guidance says that computerised printouts are acceptable, providing each sheet is signed by the "logbook" owner alongside the statement "I certify that the entries in this logbook are true". (or similar).
It is not necessary for a CAA instructor or examiner to sign your logbook for any licence, rating, renewal or revalidation. The forms which are sent to the CAA are sufficient. FAA is a bit different, since the logbook "signoffs" provide the only evidence of your currency - unlike the JAA licence which has the relevant pages.
Back in CAA land, the only co-signature which I am aware of is that required for PICUS or P1/S. (Something the FAA don't recognise). However, you can still log the total flight time so long as the PIC is declared.
I think the difficulty may arise in justifying the time in the P1 column without the PIC's signature, but again I think that it only becomes an issue should there ever be a dispute.
I am also aware that the total hours claimed can be accepted by the CAA for a "lost" logbook - without trying to re-create the original. In this case, you simply have to produce a sworn affidavit.
Obviously, there is scope for abuse of the system - and it has happened in the past. But the CAA aren't stupid, and if you went for an ATPL on the basis of a 1500 hour affidavit - then you can bet your history and training would be scrutinised.
So, in summary, I am pretty confident that you could copy your logbook over to a new book without penalty, providing you sign each page. (If it comes to it, don't use tipex though. Just draw a line through the error, write the correction next to the deletion and initial it.)
Hope this helps.
Current CAA guidance says that computerised printouts are acceptable, providing each sheet is signed by the "logbook" owner alongside the statement "I certify that the entries in this logbook are true". (or similar).
It is not necessary for a CAA instructor or examiner to sign your logbook for any licence, rating, renewal or revalidation. The forms which are sent to the CAA are sufficient. FAA is a bit different, since the logbook "signoffs" provide the only evidence of your currency - unlike the JAA licence which has the relevant pages.
Back in CAA land, the only co-signature which I am aware of is that required for PICUS or P1/S. (Something the FAA don't recognise). However, you can still log the total flight time so long as the PIC is declared.
I think the difficulty may arise in justifying the time in the P1 column without the PIC's signature, but again I think that it only becomes an issue should there ever be a dispute.
I am also aware that the total hours claimed can be accepted by the CAA for a "lost" logbook - without trying to re-create the original. In this case, you simply have to produce a sworn affidavit.
Obviously, there is scope for abuse of the system - and it has happened in the past. But the CAA aren't stupid, and if you went for an ATPL on the basis of a 1500 hour affidavit - then you can bet your history and training would be scrutinised.
So, in summary, I am pretty confident that you could copy your logbook over to a new book without penalty, providing you sign each page. (If it comes to it, don't use tipex though. Just draw a line through the error, write the correction next to the deletion and initial it.)
Hope this helps.
